Curse

The Josip · Jul 16, 2010, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Right...

Say, would you take into your group a monk whose ability to heal upon encountering first monster mob was 100%... then second mob 30%.. then third mob 80%.. then fourth mob 10%? And like that through entire zone?

How far do you think your team would go with such a monk, and do you think he would be worth taking?

ps: Let me draw it.

Player Party Defense: 100
Monster mob Offense: under 100
-------------------------------------
Player Party survives

Player Party Defense: 80
Monster mob Offense: 100
-------------------------
Wipe / deaths in the team

Player Party Defense: 150
Monster mob Offense: 100
-------------------------
Slower zone clear: Player party progress is slowed down because there's too much defense that isn't needed. Party Offense should be increased at the expense of Defense

Now,

Player Party Defense at mob1: 100
Monster mob1 offense: under 100

Player Party Defense at mob2: 30
Monster mob2 offense: 90

etc etc
---------------------------------
Player party needs to use "lowest common denominator" Defense, to go through the area. This makes any defense above that line of very little use.

This is why I don't consider panic a "very very great skill". I would say Psychic Instability is a great skill, because it's more controllable and consistently reliable, and can be "buffed" either by consumables (yes, PvE is PvE) or skills/effects that reduce cast time, in some circumstances.

===

It's not the same with Offense. Offense can be greater or slower in mob1, mob2, mob3 and so on. Fluctuation in offense will slow killing here and there, but progress is still maintained.

So, when it comes to Offense, the numbers add.

Offense 30+80+50+100+10+60+60+50+60+100 = total offense.

When it comes to Defense, the lowest common denominator has to be used. Defense doesn't "add", unless you want to be frequent visitor of rez shrines. Fluctuations in defense therefore have to be avoided as much as possible, and unreliable defensive skills have much smaller usefulness than it may appear on the paper.

Kyp Jade · Jul 16, 2010, 11:30 PM // 23:30

I think you have a gross conceptual error about how killing in this game works.

Theres no way to quantify offense or defense in this game, you have buffs, debuffs, heals, PROTS, in each and every form you can think of.

This is not theorycraft, its game mechanics. Its not about damage vs healing.
A skill like panic is extremly overpowered. What your ignoring is the fact that in pve, things like to ball up naturally, even if you dont try to ball them up thier AI all works the same and they end up balling up to some extent. Panic is meant to be used like a super blackout. You find a ball, you cast panic. Panic now stops 99% of everything, and only gets better the more things you hit with it. It is extremly easy to kill stuff when all it is doing is either standing there screaming !! or autoattacking. For an obvious example, look at doa glaiveway. When I take a panic instead of a sos rit, my pug runs are genrally about 20 minutes faster, between 1hr and 1hr-20 mins. Ive finished on 2 consets before.

With that in mind, you dont need ANYTHING else on your bar BUT panic to make your team love you. All other 7 skills on your bar can be picked for team synergy (except maybe taking mistrust because that is one of the best mesmer nukes there is, especially on a panic bar), and your quite retarded if you dont choose those skills to help what the rest of your team is doing.

Im sorry if you want the mesmer class to be an independent or solo class like most of the others are, but if you have ever heard something like 2 heads are better than one, gw is built around that idea, this is not a solo game like other mmos. Classes that can be played around synergy have potential to be a lot more benificial than just another source of damage.

Del · Jul 16, 2010, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Yes, but what makes GDW better on a mesmer?

WW is only good with Panic when theorycrafting.

I have one question though. Say, there's a tight mob in some general PvE area that needs handling.

Option A: Take a mesmer build with Panic to handle a mob, after which monsters manage to pull out some spells and some get interrupted, but no one dies of it. The mob is partially shutdown for 10+ seconds.

Option B: Take melee class with splinter/gdw on (instead of that panic mesmer) and attack-spam mob few times within 2 seconds, after which the entire mob dies. Shutdown is 100%, and mob is dead within few seconds.

Which form of shutdown is more effective?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, we only get one man parties now? News to me.

Also, nice hyperbole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Right...

Say, would you take into your group a monk whose ability to heal upon encountering first monster mob was 100%... then second mob 30%.. then third mob 80%.. then fourth mob 10%? And like that through entire zone?

How far do you think your team would go with such a monk, and do you think he would be worth taking?

ps: Let me draw it.

Player Party Defense: 100
Monster mob Offense: under 100
-------------------------------------
Player Party survives

Player Party Defense: 80
Monster mob Offense: 100
-------------------------
Wipe / deaths in the team

Player Party Defense: 150
Monster mob Offense: 100
-------------------------
Slower zone clear: Player party progress is slowed down because there's too much defense that isn't needed. Party Offense should be increased at the expense of Defense

Now,

Player Party Defense at mob1: 100
Monster mob1 offense: under 100

Player Party Defense at mob2: 30
Monster mob2 offense: 90

etc etc
---------------------------------
Player party needs to use "lowest common denominator" Defense, to go through the area. This makes any defense above that line of very little use.

This is why I don't consider panic a "very very great skill". I would say Psychic Instability is a great skill, because it's more controllable and consistently reliable, and can be "buffed" either by consumables (yes, PvE is PvE) or skills/effects that reduce cast time, in some circumstances.

===

It's not the same with Offense. Offense can be greater or slower in mob1, mob2, mob3 and so on. Fluctuation in offense will slow killing here and there, but progress is still maintained.

So, when it comes to Offense, the numbers add.

Offense 30+80+50+100+10+60+60+50+60+100 = total offense.

When it comes to Defense, the lowest common denominator has to be used. Defense doesn't "add", unless you want to be frequent visitor of rez shrines. Fluctuations in defense therefore have to be avoided as much as possible, and unreliable defensive skills have much smaller usefulness than it may appear on the paper.

Quality theory-crafting.

Jeydra · Jul 17, 2010, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Whoa, whoa, whoa, we only get one man parties now? News to me.

Also, nice hyperbole.

Quality theory-crafting.

You could help out by not trolling and actually posting something constructive.

@Kyp Jade - if you can post a faster H/H time than some of the times people have already posted using a Panic Mesmer when the MM is viable, do it. Otherwise I'll stick to my original conclusions. Maybe you can make your team happy by bringing Panic ... or alternatively, you could alter your team so that you can use a higher DPS character but still clear areas without problems.

HigherMinion · Jul 17, 2010, 12:08 PM // 12:08

So far the only way I've been able to complete War in LA is by using two mesmers. Didn't you say something about them not being useful, Josip/Jeydra? Ineptititude/panic

Xenomortis · Jul 17, 2010, 12:12 PM // 12:12

I'm a little dubious as to how effective Ineptitude was, but there's no doubt Panic was worthwhile.

byteme! · Jul 17, 2010, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Panic is sick. I can't believe people need to debate about this.

The Josip · Jul 17, 2010, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

So far the only way I've been able to complete War in LA is by using two mesmers. Didn't you say something about them not being useful, Josip/Jeydra? Ineptititude/panic

No I didn't, I said exactly what I wrote in the thread.

The only problem is that there are people unable to understand, and also people unwilling to understand. So when I say "X" people keep arguing that "X is X" and that how can I be for "Y".

Eventually I get tired of it and start daydreaming how cool it would be if ignorance and stupidity caused pain.

---

Back to superior form of discussion in the jungle: monologue.

Me: In general PvE...
Y: You're wrong because in DoA..

Me: So in general PvE..
X: What you say is wrong because in 1 single quest in the entire game..

Me: As I was saying..
X: Yes, as you were saying, Panic is completely useless skill..
Me: No, as I was saying, in general PvE... aaaah never mind. I can repeat it 50x, I can draw it, and I bet I'll learn a cat how to sing faster. You can't teach cat how to sing opera because there's no capacity. You can't explain some things here because there's no capacity of understand. So it's pointless. Back to monologue.

Jeydra · Jul 17, 2010, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

So far the only way I've been able to complete War in LA is by using two mesmers. Didn't you say something about them not being useful, Josip/Jeydra? Ineptititude/panic

BLA is something which I don't have much experience in. I might change my conclusions after I spend experimenting with it.

By the way off the top of my head it'd seem the most efficient way of doing BLA is to use a tank of some kind and then lots of Savannah Heats and Meteor Showers + one Deep Freeze, or some kind of physical AoE (MoP + Splinter?).

Kyp Jade · Jul 17, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Josip, you wanted an example because even tho you theorycraft more than anyone else, you hate reading theorycraft, and I gave you a DoA example. If your a discord solo vanq or a spirit way solo vanq, take gwen and 2 necros or gwen and 2 rits. Discord is strong and brainless because its easy to set up and easy to understand, same with sway. And with discord builds in particular, half of the killing damage comes from the caller anyway, you dont lose much by dropping 1 discord hero. Most of the times only 2 discords get casted anyway and you hear the third one click because it didnt complete cast. Its far more efficient to only bring 2 copies of it.

Panic is just as powerful in general pve, and heros are excellent at never using it on a solo mob, even if there is a ball of melee and a ball of casters gwen defaults to panic the ball of casters. And when your like me and like to c-space pve and you inevitable c-space your way into a huge tripple pull, a panic hero stays on top of it.

I also dont understand why you think a panic bar is so bad. Skills like wastrels worry are
bad, take mistrust, you get more damage out of it, and wastrels takes more attention to use anyway (and more importantly it saps heroes energy if a hero is playing panic). You just gave some epic wrong theory about defense vs offense, and left it at that.

And I would stop replying to this, but it would do the guru community a great disservice to allow your twisted version of the game to be the only one people see, I know a lot of people that browse wiki, pvx, and guru for new ideas on how to play something, and you talk about how the mesmer is weaker than it really is all the time.

Xenomortis · Jul 17, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

By the way off the top of my head it'd seem the most efficient way of doing BLA is to use a tank of some kind and then lots of Savannah Heats and Meteor Showers + one Deep Freeze, or some kind of physical AoE (MoP + Splinter?).

With a full human team, probably.
I tried Mark of Pain, but individual enemy targets don't live very long and the AI physicals and minions seldom attacked the marked target.

The Josip · Jul 17, 2010, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Josip, you wanted an example because even tho you theorycraft more than anyone else, you hate reading theorycraft

I'm afraid people don't even know what theorycraft is, what is the difference between theorycraft and math. I use a combination of high-quality math/logic and empirism, and both go hand in hand because high-quality math/logic often explains more clearly why something works and why doesn't. "More clearly", of course, when there's capacity for understanding, which surely despite what some think isn't universal.

But of course, most people live in black and white world, where there's either theorycraft or practice, either 1 or 0.

Quote:

and I gave you a DoA example

You could've taken melting of polar caps as an example as well - with same level of relevance. No one here was talking about DoA, and in 50 previous posts I made it clear I'm not talking about DoA.

Quote:

I know a lot of people that browse wiki, pvx, and guru for new ideas on how to play something, and you talk about how the mesmer is weaker than it really is all the time.

Sure. And then you'll tell these people your own version, they'll invest a lot of time in their mesmer, come to DoA and type "mesmer LFG" and won't get accepted in a single PuG group because they ain't running DwG. Then they'll come to ToA and type "Mesmer LFG" and HigherMinion replies with "LOL" - and you won't get into PuG group there either. Then you'll tell that guy "hey, Panic is great!", but what use is it to him when he can't play in these areas anyway. Then he'll just take H/H and H/H whatever can be H/Hed - where Panic isn't the best option at all. Sure you'll say "just grab friends and guildies and you can get into DoA and UW then" - which is very "realistic" option for average GWer. Please.

You're also being very optimistic. First, most people don't care about builds they run. Second, they visit PvXwiki and don't read discussions in the forum. The number of people who read discussions in the forums and are able to differentiate between good argument and bad are far too few.

People should learn how to think, not how to copy builds. I have posted a lot of constructive input which so far has been enough to transform a good mesmer into great mesmer. Of course, like with every good material only few have any use of it. The others come with their own "better" ideas.

That pretty much sums it up and I'm done with the topic. There's nothing else constructive that I can add, and if this wasn't enough no more text will be.

Kyp Jade · Jul 17, 2010, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I'm afraid people don't even know what theorycraft is, what is the difference between theorycraft and math. I use a combination of high-quality math/logic and empirism, and both go hand in hand because high-quality math/logic often explains more clearly why something works and why doesn't. "More clearly", of course, when there's capacity for understanding, which surely despite what some think isn't universal.

What you described is called theorycraft, when you try to put numbers to something, its called thoery

Despite what you think, I've yet to have trouble getting into a group as a panic mesmer, go figure, its people with random Me/D builds that bring nothing to a group at all without tons of support that dont get accepted into anything.

maxxfury · Jul 17, 2010, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Despite what you think, I've yet to have trouble getting into a group as a panic mesmer, go figure, its people with random Me/D builds that bring nothing to a group at all without tons of support that dont get accepted into anything.

Getting into a pug, no offense intended, isnt hard.. especially if you use the buzz words like "panic mesmer" ect which all of genpop has heard about since the patch... The shambles of builds ive seen accepted into pugs are quite hilarious but very very often accepted with no input was offered to improve them

A lot of pugs just dont know the difference between a good bar, a bad bar and a passable bar.

And, that 2nd comment pretty much covers physicals, who need buffing and cleaning to be super effective.. with a scythe so long as you can maintain your energy and keep your 1/2 attacks flowing while under PS, your really not that far behind the w/d, p/d or r/d outputs..who also have only a r12 scythe spec..

Buffed melee are generally the best damage outputs in the game* ..gimped melee-mancer versions are ofc behind but not by a huge amount.. buffing your melee options is SOO much easier and more profitable that buffing your casting damage options thats its unfunny...

Would i use a scythe on a mes tho or tell ppl to run it? well no, but that because i dont find scythes fun

and id much rather take someone who's job is supposed to be frontline and take the mes for shutdown when/if needed. but i guess if your profession locked and cant change and want dps cos shutdown wont be needed.

*Everyone knows this for general pve right?

The Drunkard · Jul 17, 2010, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

When it comes to Defense, the lowest common denominator has to be used. Defense doesn't "add", unless you want to be frequent visitor of rez shrines. Fluctuations in defense therefore have to be avoided as much as possible, and unreliable defensive skills have much smaller usefulness than it may appear on the paper.

Do me a favor, go do the battle of lion's arch with a panic human mesmer, and then again with something doing dps and tell me how many times you wipe on each occasion. No theorycrafting or semantic crap, I want real experiences. Then tell me if the healers of your groups are human and if so how difficult their experience was.

Panic will incapacitate big mobs as long as you can keep it up. It alleviates a lot of pressure off of the healers and allows for them to make mistakes. Having GDW on a melee will produce more damage but will force you to bundle up mobs and gives the mobs the opportunity to hurt your party. I don't know about you, but it's much easier in elite areas to panic mobs and let the 100b/MoP do their job than it is to try and crowd control on a warrior.

Jeydra · Jul 18, 2010, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Do me a favor, go do the battle of lion's arch with a panic human mesmer, and then again with something doing dps and tell me how many times you wipe on each occasion. No theorycrafting or semantic crap, I want real experiences. Then tell me if the healers of your groups are human and if so how difficult their experience was.

Panic will incapacitate big mobs as long as you can keep it up. It alleviates a lot of pressure off of the healers and allows for them to make mistakes. Having GDW on a melee will produce more damage but will force you to bundle up mobs and gives the mobs the opportunity to hurt your party. I don't know about you, but it's much easier in elite areas to panic mobs and let the 100b/MoP do their job than it is to try and crowd control on a warrior.

You're missing the point. If you add a Panic Mesmer in place of an offensive character, of course you should wipe less. You're running more defense! If you don't wipe less there's something seriously wrong with your teambuild.

The real question is how long it takes to clear something. If you run too much defense, this test will indicate it because you take longer to kill mobs. If you run too little defense it will again indicate it because you wipe a lot. If you can do BLA using H/H (this is a Heroes and AI forum) and a Panic Mesmer, and compare that with the times taken if you don't use a Panic Mesmer, then you have real material to support you.

Of course BLA is not a good area for this kind of test because it's not repeatable, but go ahead and post screens from it if you want. If you want to compare with me, you'll have to use an Elementalist primary (I only have an Elementalist) and make it HM if possible. I'll try it without a Mesmer. If you'd rather try this in another area, by all means post some screenshots. I'll add that right now I will use the Mesmer hero in areas without much bodies, while in other areas I'll use the MM, so if you pick an area like Ooze Pit I can't offer anything to compare.

If you have no real preference on area, I suggest Slaver's HM (any area but Forgewight, which lacks bodies too).

Kyp Jade · Jul 18, 2010, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Since when was general pve a speed clear? If your worried about bringing too much defense, you more than likely already have too much defense. There have been times I joined a group that had 3 healers and a imba in it, those are the times i dont say anything and quietly change my bar to something spikey instead.

Also, panic is not strictly defense, its shutdown. When its used properly, there is no healing, no damage, nothing. And a lot of times they dont even wand/autoattack, just stand there and scream !! a lot.

The Drunkard · Jul 18, 2010, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The real question is how long it takes to clear something. If you run too much defense, this test will indicate it because you take longer to kill mobs. If you run too little defense it will again indicate it because you wipe a lot. If you can do BLA using H/H (this is a Heroes and AI forum) and a Panic Mesmer, and compare that with the times taken if you don't use a Panic Mesmer, then you have real material to support you.

So then let me ask you this question, are 2 support (healer, bonder,prot,ER, SY) and a panic mesmer overkill on healing in a normal 8-man situation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Of course BLA is not a good area for this kind of test because it's not repeatable, but go ahead and post screens from it if you want.

BLA is repeatable to an extent. It's easy to get in a pug and will be for the next month or so. A character who has done the quest once can do it again. I like BLA because it easy to Pug and doesn't require someone forking over cons, through tribute, cons, WE. BLA also features somewhat balanced mobs with a difficulty level close to an elite area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'll add that right now I will use the Mesmer hero in areas without much bodies, while in other areas I'll use the MM, so if you pick an area like Ooze Pit I can't offer anything to compare.

Please don't bother if you don't have human healers. You can read my reasoning in the post you quoted.

(PS: Heroes do use neither panic nor interrupts effectively in PvP; the only thing they do right is spam PI on whatever they feel like.)

Jeydra · Jul 18, 2010, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Since when was general pve a speed clear? If your worried about bringing too much defense, you more than likely already have too much defense. There have been times I joined a group that had 3 healers and a imba in it, those are the times i dont say anything and quietly change my bar to something spikey instead.

Also, panic is not strictly defense, its shutdown. When its used properly, there is no healing, no damage, nothing. And a lot of times they dont even wand/autoattack, just stand there and scream !! a lot.

If you're not going to look at speed, what else do you want to look at? Successful completion? I'm willing to bet you anything that I can do Jennur's Horde in HM, using Koss as a Mending Wammo with Frenzy Healsig. Meaningless. The way the game is right now successfully completing anything, bar a very few select areas, isn't worth shouting about.

3 healers and an imbagon is too much defense. Panic is defensive. Chances are you're not going to get many offensive interrupts, and besides there are far more powerful offensive shutdown skills available.

@The Drunkard -

Yes that is too much defense. In normal 8-man situations, if you have a human ER, one healer is enough and you don't need support. If you're running H/H, 1.5 healers is enough. In my H/H teams these days I run Mhenlo plus a Rit with Kaolai / Spirit Light / Mend Body And Soul at most. The remainder of the team are there to deal damage, although they also absorb a great deal of damage.

If you want to use BLA as a testing ground go ahead. Post a screenshot of you doing BLA HM with a Panic Mesmer hero, preferably using an Elementalist primary yourself. We can compare times then.

PS: You can't use heroes in PvP.

Perfected Shadow · Jul 18, 2010, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Of course BLA is not a good area for this kind of test because it's not repeatable

BLA is a quest so you can abandon it and retake.

For H/H BLA I just don't see any offensive hero bar that would be worth taking over a panic hero.