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May 31, 2010, 08:19 PM // 20:19
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#81 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: There
Guild: [ToA]
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Quote:
Second,you're asking to be shown something you haven't provided-give us a video of you doing SoO. Also,if you're so sure your build is the bestest evar then you should be doing something like Slavers,which very few hero builds can do(Sabway,Discordway and Ritway all work well modified). Show us that your Mesmer builds can do well,don't just show us a video of one group in SoO-impress us if you expect us to accept your builds as good. |
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May 31, 2010, 09:15 PM // 21:15
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#82 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: On the interweb. n__n
Guild: Desolation Lords [DL]
Profession: A/W
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Jun 01, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45
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#83 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jun 2005
Profession: W/
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The circular logic in this thread is ridiculous...
I just read the last 2 pages of this thread in reverse order, thinking some meaningful discussion was taking place, only to find that it was a petty sniping match between a couple of nitpickers and a guy with a non-perfect (but still clean) run-through video. Mesmers are viable. That's been proven conclusively. Stop arguing your theory-craft against hard evidence. And no, making a comprehensive list of every mistake made in the video does not undermine the end conclusion, so stop trying. Whether they're comparable, better, or worse than existing builds is still up to debate. And no, arguing "I like prots better" and "Too much micro" is not informative of anything except your own play styles. |
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Jun 01, 2010, 01:44 AM // 01:44
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#84 | ||
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
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Quote:
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Jun 01, 2010, 04:53 AM // 04:53
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#85 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jun 2005
Profession: W/
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Quote:
As I said, nitpicking at tiny points doesn't really mean anything. You accomplished a personal challenge, which is impressive, but running a gimped build on a dare isn't quite the same as having an optimized team that is comparable to pre-existing ones. Are Mesmer teams great? They could very well be, and evidence certainly seems to suggest it, but I honestly don't have any stake in the matter one way or another. I was just annoyed at reading through several pages worth of Igor being argumentative on principle, and byteme and wind fire and ice bashing a build purely on their biases and theory-craft. It was 40 posts of "arguments" amounting to: Igor hates Daesu, two guys hate Mesmers, and Daesu's guild mate is bad. And I wouldn't even be saying anything about this, except that this entire section is completely flooded by this bickering. |
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Jun 01, 2010, 06:48 AM // 06:48
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#86 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: There
Guild: [ToA]
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Quote:
But I agree with the other parts,this would be a more productive thread if Daesu wasn't so defensive(bad),or if more people worked to prove Memsers viable. Last edited by wind fire and ice; Jun 01, 2010 at 06:51 AM // 06:51.. |
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Jun 01, 2010, 06:49 AM // 06:49
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#87 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: On Earth
Profession: W/P
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Get used to it. Igor and Daesu have been going at it for quite some time now. You can choose not to view any posts these 2 make if you wish.
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Jun 01, 2010, 07:51 PM // 19:51
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#88 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: On the interweb. n__n
Guild: Desolation Lords [DL]
Profession: A/W
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Quote:
Regardless, Daesu should post a video of full SoO run. Killing the first three trash groups in a dungeon shows nothing. His guildie could even be rezoning until it looks perfectly clean; full video eliminates that possibility. Hardest part of SoO is Fendi where your setup is truly put to a test but trash groups are fairly easy. I won’t be going to SoO just to kill the trash mobs, I want the end chest. Thats why I want to see how this build fares against him without any micro able Prots. |
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Jun 02, 2010, 11:49 PM // 23:49
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#89 | ||
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
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Quote:
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*** I've gone through a variety of PI-based builds now and I don't think PI is usable at this point. The hero doesn't use PI enough. Of course expecting the hero to AoE KD monsters every 12s (or however much it is with Fast Casting) is a bit much, but unless it can do that I don't see the point of running PI. Builds tried: PI-based Domination build with Mistrust / Guilt / prots / Spiritual Pain / Unnatural Signet - barring the extremely heavy energy cost of this bar, the hero definitely didn't land PI as often as I wished it would; instead it spams the damage spells a lot. When it did land PI the effects are great, but until it does hit with PI it's just a weaker Necro. Healing Prayers + Prots + PI with 12 Fast Casting - the hero prefers to heal instead of use PI even when the party is under no pressure. PI + Res Chant with no other skills on the bar - this really shows the problem bare. The hero is absolutely worthless against anything without spells; it doesn't attempt to interrupt attack skills. Of course a real human playing the bar wouldn't land that many interrupts too, so ... I've still got to try the other Mesmer elites, I'm just not very hopeful. |
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Jun 03, 2010, 01:12 AM // 01:12
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#90 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Zul'Aman
Guild: Umes Uranger U[bot]
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Why do we need a mesmerway? Just 1 mesmer with Panic can !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!down mob groups. I'm talking complete shutdown where melee mobs have trouble getting auto attacks off.
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Jun 04, 2010, 04:34 PM // 16:34
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#91 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
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Tried Panic out. I must say I'm pretty impressed. I brought Panic Mesmer + Channeling Rit + Communing Rit + me (Air AP Ele) + Herta + Cynn + Lo Sha + Zho out into Sparkfly Swamp HM and had absolutely no problems clearing out all the mobs. In fact sometimes I even aggroed two mobs and didn't take deaths - and all I had for bar push was MBAS, Kaolai and Spirit Light.
Impressive as that is though there's one problem, and that is damage. The Mesmer hero still doesn't do much damage. What non-elite sources of damage are there in Domination Magic? Unnatural Signet (OK), Spiritual Pain (OK), Energy Burn (meh), Mistrust (good spell), Cry of Frustration (requires interrupt, 10e) and no more. Yet even taking all that together backed by high Fast Casting is still mediocre damage. I can see absolutely no reason to take Panic into PvE except possibly against multiple high-DPS HM Fire Eles, which is quite uncommon. For every other area with bodies I'd run the MM, and for every other area without bodies I'd sooner run VoR if I'm even running the Mesmer hero. Otherwise another major drawback of Panic Mesmers is energy. You can put Prot Spirit on the bar (I did it), but unlike a Necro the Mesmer generally does not have the energy to use Prot Spirit on demand. Not too bad a drawback, but a drawback nonetheless. The hero also loves to hex a single foe with Panic, total waste there. Panic Mesmers look rather like Keystone Signet Mesmers. Keystone Signet Mesmers having higher armour, easier energy and on-demand interrupts, but Panic Mesmers interrupt in a much larger AoE. Panic Mesmers also deal a bit more damage. At this point I think I'd rather Panic, but I haven't tested thoroughly. |
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Jun 04, 2010, 05:04 PM // 17:04
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#92 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Apr 2006
Guild: Amazon Basin [AB]
Profession: Mo/Me
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If you want to abuse PI, I've been playing around with a tease-esque resto healer. Waste Not they can then hit on the KD'd foes if not any other time, along with something like power drain for other interrupts and energy. With a bar more focused on heals than prot, they aren't going to bother healing when party bars are full and can get some interrupts in during that time. Long-recharging but useful skills like Life and PwK also help un-clutter their decision making process. These AI tendencies are probably part of why hero bars full of interrupts never became meta in PvP, while the hybrid interrupters/healers were.
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Jun 04, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37
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#93 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: On the interweb. n__n
Guild: Desolation Lords [DL]
Profession: A/W
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Quote:
If anything, Daesu's video shows that mesmer are in fact viable in toughest PvE areas. There, you have a high chance of coming across stuff that is worth interrupting... Maybe. :3 |
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Jun 04, 2010, 08:54 PM // 20:54
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#94 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Quote:
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Jun 05, 2010, 12:31 AM // 00:31
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#95 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: England
Profession: Me/
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Quote:
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Jun 12, 2010, 02:44 PM // 14:44
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#96 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Apr 2006
Guild: Amazon Basin [AB]
Profession: Mo/Me
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Just what are the uber Necro builds people are talking about here? Sure, minion bombers and mass death nova rocks. But beyond that? Discord? A character with two mediocre damage skills and the rest healing is OK, but another character that does sameish damage except AoE, while also mitigating is bad? Or are you using curses and watching them put mark of pain and SS on bad targets?
AoE options for heroes are limited. Next best thing people had is RoJ way which has its own issues. If you either can't or already have covered spirits, minions, and physical buffs, mesmers are the next choice for damage dealers, particularly shining against balled casters. They are close enough in power that whether I find them useful or not depends on my profession build and the needs of the area. If you want to argue over one build that can kludge through anything even if suboptimal in some spots, be my guest. But that has little to say about whether mesmer heroes have a useful niche or not. |
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Jun 13, 2010, 02:26 PM // 14:26
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#97 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Aug 2009
Profession: Me/
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Practical feedback on why mesmers are not good heroes
I have vanquished few areas in Desolation with two mesmer heroes (three, counting me). While I was able to vanquish the areas, the yes/no test is not how I evaluate heroes. Considering that I also used to vanquish for money - meaning I was doing vanquish with less than full party - being able to do something with a mesmer isn't indication of how good they are *relative* to other heroes. If someone is merely interesting whether something can be done with mesmer heroes - the answer is usually "sure". If the question is "can mesmer replace Rt's and Necros" the answer is: "no". And here's why: 1. Theorycraft. There's a huge different between what skill "x" does on paper, and what it does in the game. 2. Antisynergy among the strongest mesmer skills. No synergy with anything or anyone else. Antisynergy with some henchmen. 3. AI not understanding skills, priority targets, off targets. 4. Reliability. Mesmer heroes are not reliable. They can be very efficient and very inefficient a dozen of times within the same zone. Sure they can interrupt that spell, but I've seen them many times not interrupt a critical 2-sec spell even when they were doing nothing. On the other hand, a hero will always cast and recast PwK. --- In details: * Mesmer heroes will refuse to even cast some skills, or cast them very, very rarely. Example: Chaos Storm. Another example: PI. PI has strong spammable effect, but if hero uses that once every 30 or 60 seconds or rarer, it's pointless. * Mesmer is not straightforward damage or heal class. Mesmer damage spells, as well as mitigation spells, require TABing, require precision in casting time, require prediction, require timing, etc. Heroes are not good at this. If you call a target, they'll throw whatever they have on that target, regardless of whether it will do anything or not. If you don't call targets, you're losing in efficiency. Example: Calculated Risk which is a great skill, if you cast it on off target. If you cast it on called target it won't do much, if anything, and it will have antisynergy with Clumsiness, Ineptitude etc. * Theorycraft vs practice. In theory, Mistrust does a huge amount of AoE damage, and recharges fast. In practice, mistrust won't be used on recharge, and often won't trigger, or will trigger but on a lone enemy so AoE will not be present, or it will trigger on near dead enemy so full damage won't happen. Which brings us to real average damage per zone a skill does as opposed to theoretical damage. * Antisynergy. Panic. Panic and entire series of best mesmer hexes - complete antisynergy. Mistrust, Clumsiness, Wandering Eye, Guilt, Interrupts. What does Panic do? It's a one-skill-mesmer. The rest of your bar needs to be full of non mesmer skills. In my opinion, lame. Every other profession has skills which synergize with skills of that profession and other professions. Mesmers have skills which don't synergize with other profession skills and skills which antisynergize with other mesmer skills. Horrible. This is how one of the biggest buff hopes ended. * Mesmer heroes refuse to spam skills. Their Fast Casting is completely useless. What good does it do if even when you have energy, you don't spam skills. What good does faster recharge do, when mesmer heroes refuse to recast these skills? * Their attributes are tied. They lack cross-profession versatility. You need some Fast Casting (otherwise why use mesmer anyway), you need high Domination or Illusion, and you need some Inspiration for energy. And even if you do want to use second profession, being mesmer doesn't help you at all after recent change to Fast Casting. It's worse than before. * There are some skills such as Power Drain etc that look tempting on heroes. Forget it. Try monitoring your heroes and you'll see they are not efficient at casting these skills, they will often miss, and often won't use them. It's good on paper. That's all. Compare that to minion bomber. Have you ever seen a necro hero not raise a minion after something died? I sure didn't. I've seen heroes get more energy with Drain Enchantment than with Power Drain (provided area has enchantments of course). * Mesmers lack passive non-self skills. Why are Ritualists and Necros so good? Because they both have great passive skills. Rt casts a spirit and that's it. The rest of the time he can spam those few fast-recharging heals or damage skills. Necro will have minions around him, without the need to keep clicking on some skill each time he wants minions to do damage or to body block. Now, here's a fun part. These passive skills act like Fast Casting. They offer a form of Fast Casting, except better one. To picture what I mean: imagine a mesmer casting Spiritual Pain every 2 seconds. Now imagine Ritualist putting down SoS. Ritualist will use.. what, 1 second of casting time per entire mob. A mesmer, with 16 FC, will need seconds of recasting the skill, over and over. * Too much of the same. A domination mesmer might want to take Surge, Spiritual Pain, Wastrel's Demise, Unnatural Signet, Energy Burn.. these skills really do same thing. Except you need many of them because of the recharge. Now compare that to Rt or N skillbar. Their bars are compressed. Each skill is unique and has a very specific and strong role. You can dislike Discord all you want, but it's a good example of compressed skillbar. You have 1 direct damage skill - Discord, with almost instant recharge and high armor ignoring damage. You don't need 4 domination skills to do the same thing. Sure it's conditional, but that's why you have a *team* build. Synergy. What's next - Aegis. Great anti-melee skill. What then, Protective Spirit perhaps, or maybe PwK/Life - party heal. What then - a minion / spirit. Passive skill. What then, AoE/poison with Death Nova and also enchantment distraction (so critical enchantment doesn't get removed). What then, Putrid Bile, hex with AoE effect. For flavor. What then, a direct heal or two. Antimelee with Enfeebling in the form of condition. What then, perhaps a Splinter for those who need that, or perhaps Frozen Soil or some other utility. Perhaps Fall Back. And what's your choice on mesmer skillbar? 4 anti melee hex skills, 4 anti-caster skills of which none actually shuts caster down or does significant damage, 2 energy-gain skills. Then a bit random. Zero party skills. * Delay. Mesmer skills have delay. Because they are mostly reactive skills. Damage these skills do, combined with the inability of heroes to cast properly on off targets, makes most of these skills near useless. * Rough competition. It's not that mesmer heroes are bad - I believe they are as good as heroes should be in hard mode. Enough to win, but with some challenge. But spirits are just ridiculous, and minions / soul reaping was always too strong in PvE. Mesmer hero would need to compete with some strong gimmick, but recent buff brought nothing but "there, mesmers are now fine" sense of satisfaction for ANet. In reality, AP spammer is still best build for a player, and mesmer heroes still offer nothing to the party that others don't do better. I'm not saying there are no ok builds (such as Ineptitude), but from elitist point of view - of what is the best of the best - it's really AP for player and Rt's and Necros for heroes. |
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Jun 14, 2010, 02:39 AM // 02:39
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#98 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: IN my pocket plane. Obviously!
Guild: Little Tom's Pocket Plane [THom]
Profession: Me/Mo
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Jossip has some nice points. Listen to him.
That being said, I'll still have a mesmer on my team. |
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Jun 14, 2010, 03:38 AM // 03:38
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#99 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sacramento, CA
Guild: Geezers
Profession: R/
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I took my Panic mesmer into the Warband of Brother's mission. Right at the beginning of the second level there is that bottleneck where you can get overwhelmed by a large mass of Charr. It was absolutely hilarious watching !!'s continuously popping up from the entire mob over and over again.
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Jun 14, 2010, 07:50 AM // 07:50
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#100 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Quote:
I am often repeating War in Kryta stuff, using characters with limited skills and heroes available - because I only ran them just far enough to get into Lion's Arch keep. Gwen is one of the easiest-to-obtain heroes... and I'm finding that a 4-second AoE knockdown from Psychic Instability is invaluable in letting my sub-optimal parties spike down the key opponents in a HM mantle group. Whatever else I put on Gwen's bar is gravy. I don't doubt what The Josip said, but a mesmer hero is still FTW in some situations. |
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