Curse

Myotheraccount · May 30, 2010, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Yeah I saw your build alright.

Hmmm...interesting that you added a primary rit build at the end, since I last looked and your human rit bar looks like mine, which I posted here before.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:DarkS...s_Rit_Daesuway

....except that my heroes are not as defensive.

You must be thinking that you were the first person to run SoS that way. Rest assured, many people figured it out before you have. Lol

I don't play my Rit often and when I do he usually runs the first version with AP caller build. The other one was to see how good ST rit was. It's actually pretty amazing.

Quote:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:DarkS...ragon_Daesuway

There will be similarities between builds, but the builds are different enough to warrant a different strategy. As I recall his strategy involves "They're on Fire!" and damage mitigation through Blazing Finale. His build is probably safer than mine.

Some of his ideas (and mine) are also not completely new and are taken from Racway and other sources.

Apart from using two Paras I don't see how his build is similar to Racway. I haven't seen any other hero teams that employed similar synergies either. Yours is identical to his except it doesn't have Blazing/ToF! and suggests some variants like Rt/P replacing P/Rt. Rest works on the same principle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

My guildie and I discussed about your point that a mesmer hero has no damage prevention advantage or micro advantage. We disagree.

The best way that we can demonstrate this is to go back to a dual mesmer build in HM Shards with minimum micro, he only used the H/H flag this time. Note that his mesmers heroes are poorly runed (i.e. no insignia or vigor runes) and Norgu is runed to be a dom mesmer instead of illusion, but we decided to bring the same PI build for both mesmers anyway because PI isn't cast as often and Illusion synergizes better with it.

One of the big problems he has with Shards is the Skeleton Illusionists because their Hex Eater Vortex is a direct counter to his AP build and Frustration+Interrupts is a pain. Even with the mistakes he made, his mesmers were able to prevent damage long enough to buy him the needed time to turn the battle around.

http://www.xfire.com/video/2c567e/

Note that we don't have the mesmer skill bar quite nailed down yet and energy management is still a problem.

That guy in the video makes me laugh. He's followed by two melees, casts ward and runs out of it. Lol! I'm still not impressed because these mobs in SoO aren't really that hard to begin with. Then I see heroes not casting PI as often as the should, running out of energy and it seems that the Rit + Player + Ele hench were doing all the killing. Not to mention it was taking him ages to kill stuff. Brings validity of Mesmers (at least rupt-based ones) to a question. =/

P.S: I'm starting to get an impression that your "Guildie" is in fact you, Daesu.

wind fire and ice · May 30, 2010, 08:42 PM // 20:42

I don't have much to add,but the simple fact is that general PvE is very simple and it isn't worth carrying Mesmer's 99% of the time.

I've used them plenty just because I enjoy interrupting-but there's no valid reason to bring a Mesmer hero in PvE outside of wanting to because you find them fun.

They will never be competitive with necs and rits for a hero spot,only very specific places/missions/whatever will ever make a Mesmer a good option,general PvE is too easy to warrant bothering with interrupts.

Even if you manage to set up a Mesmer that shuts the enemies down enough you only need 1 backline,2 healers is always going to be safer then a Mesmer+backline,and Mesmer's aren't going to put out enough damage/utility for the added risk.

Daesu · May 30, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Casting AP when the target is above 50% health is asking for it to be stripped.
The hex removal is annoying, but opening your spike chain with AP (he does it at least twice) isn't going to help.

Agree.

Quote:

Gwen in particular seems fond of using Web of Disruption when PI has long since recharged. Although reading the wiki suggests that they don't use Web as an interrupt but only as a regular hex. In that case, it's near useless.

Web does fit the build in theory. Perhaps we should consider removing it from the bar since the AI doesn't use it well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Apart from using two Paras I don't see how his build is similar to Racway. I haven't seen any other hero teams that employed similar synergies either. Yours is identical to his except it doesn't have Blazing/ToF! and suggests some variants like Rt/P replacing P/Rt. Rest works on the same principle.

I think your human rit bar is a lot more similar to mine than mine is to his. You only took out the res and made that optional while leaving the rest of my bar intact.

Quote:

P.S: I'm starting to get an impression that your "Guildie" is in fact you, Daesu.

Actually he seems to know you as Super Igor. Unfortunately, he had a better of impression of you than I have and he used to support you in this forums. But I will show him your posts about him so he can see for himself what kind of person you are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wind fire and ice

I don't have much to add,but the simple fact is that general PvE is very simple and it isn't worth carrying Mesmer's 99% of the time.

You should take whatever H/H build you normally use and use it in HM Shards without micro, cons, and without proper runes. In the video the only micro he did was the big H/H flag. HM Shards is definitely of a different level from general PvE.

wind fire and ice · May 30, 2010, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Agree.

You should take whatever H/H build you normally use and use it in HM Shards without micro, cons, and without proper runes. In the video the only micro he did was the big H/H flag. HM Shards is definitely of a different level from general PvE.

I agree,HM shards is indeed harder then most PvE.

But in that video the Mesmer wasn't even required though,you could do every thing shown with 7 party members..Mesmers can be used,but there's always a better option.

Daesu · May 30, 2010, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by wind fire and ice

But in that video the Mesmer wasn't even required though,you could do every thing shown with 7 party members..Mesmers can be used,but there's always a better option.

Obviously there are better options for HM Shards, like smiting prayers?

The point was to show that 2 crappy PI mesmers can yield enough damage prevention for it. If the mesmer heroes are really useless, then you should be able to go through it with just 6 heroes/hench with the same builds (minus the mesmers) without any death, with the same level of micro.

wind fire and ice · May 30, 2010, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Obviously there are better options for HM Shards, like smiting prayers?

The point was to show that 2 crappy PI mesmers can yield enough damage prevention for it. If the mesmer heroes are really useless, then you should be able to go through it with just 6 heroes/hench with the same builds (minus the mesmers) without any death, with the same level of micro.

They aren't totally useless,but they contribute very little to the team.

Interrupts aren't amazing in PvE,you're better off just proting a few things then killing the enemies-there's no need to go through all the interrupting..you're better off leaving your heroes to more productive roles that make the run go faster.

Myotheraccount · May 30, 2010, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I think your human rit bar is a lot more similar to mine than mine is to his. You only took out the res and made that optional while leaving the rest of my bar intact.

People been running that bar long before you posted it tbh (meincluded). Don't tell me you think you were the only one who noticed synergy between life stealing spirits and Spiritleech Aura. =/

Quote:

Actually he seems to know you as Super Igor. Unfortunately, he had a better of impression of you than I have and he used to support you in this forums. But I will show him your posts about him so he can see for himself what kind of person you are.

Allot of people know me. I dunno who he is though but I suspected it was you, saying it was a Guldie to avoid dealing with negative criticism. All things considered, you could very possibly do that. :>

Regardless, your friend should consider staying in Ward Against Melee after he casts it when being smashed by physicals and probably avoid pulling AoEs into his Spirits too.

Quote:

The point was to show that 2 crappy PI mesmers can yield enough damage prevention for it. If the mesmer heroes are really useless, then you should be able to go through it with just 6 heroes/hench with the same builds (minus the mesmers) without any death, with the same level of micro.

In other words that video just shows that PvE is easy. It's not a question of Mesmers being useless but rather of other options being more useful and powerful.

Daesu · May 30, 2010, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by wind fire and ice

Interrupts aren't amazing in PvE,you're better off just proting a few things then killing the enemies-there's no need to go through all the interrupting..you're better off leaving your heroes to more productive roles that make the run go faster.

And that is why PUGs generally think mesmers are useless.

Making runs go faster with minimum death IS a productive role in pve. In fact, that is the whole point of optimizing builds for pve, to clear areas faster. Interrupting is faster than prot, because you dont need to micro every time.

byteme! · May 30, 2010, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Interrupting is faster than prot, because you dont need to micro every time.

I stopped taking you seriously. It takes me little to no time to press a couple of keyboard keys to prot myself before I engage the enemy. Don't make it sound so complicated because it isn't and if it is then you're doing it wrong.

commence theory craft rebuttal now on 3,2,1...........

Daesu · May 30, 2010, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

I stopped taking you seriously. It takes me little to no time to press a couple of keyboard keys to prot myself before I engage the enemy. Don't make it sound so complicated because it isn't and if it is then you're doing it wrong.

And how is that easier than the no micro playing on the video and still get 0 deaths. Since PvE is so easy (see above posts by Myotheraccount), why do you even need to micro?

Unless you can prove that your micro build clears the areas faster than builds that do not need micro, there is no reason to take slower builds that require you to micro.

wind fire and ice · May 30, 2010, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And how is that easier than the no micro playing on the video and still get 0 deaths. Since PvE is so easy (see above posts by Myotheraccount), why do you even need to micro?

So your argument is because Mesmers require no micro they're superior to a build that kills much faster but requires(read-prefers) for you to do 2 secs of pre-proting before the fight?

byteme! · May 30, 2010, 11:51 PM // 23:51

You said, "Interrupting is faster than prot, because you dont need to micro every time." I don't care if PvE is easy because that's not I was talking about. Mr. Strawman you grabbed the wrong straw.

Daesu · May 30, 2010, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by wind fire and ice

So your argument is because Mesmers require no micro they're superior to a build that kills much faster but requires(read

refers) for you to do 2 secs of pre-proting before the fight?

You have to first prove that the build is indeed faster with micro. Otherwise who would go with a slower build that requires micro over a faster build that doesn't require micro?

The ability of a build not needing micro, IS an advantage, not a disadvantage. In other words, even if EFGJack micro dungeon build runs faster, there would still be people who would continue to stick with sabway/discordway/spiritway because they are easier to use.

byteme! · May 30, 2010, 11:58 PM // 23:58

You know you can literally run any build under the sun and choose not to micro right? Does this constitute an advantage?

Daesu · May 30, 2010, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

You know you can literally run any build under the sun and choose not to micro right? Does this constitute an advantage?

Not every build under the sun can clear HM Shards mobs without a single death, without micro. You know that right?

EDIT: By the way, the first 3 mobs were killed within 2:45 while taking his time.

One reason Norgu has energy problem is because he only has 35e. My silly guildie forgot to switch out his dom Effigy after assigning him an illusion build. Talk about blundering....

wind fire and ice · May 31, 2010, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You have to first prove that the build is indeed faster with micro. Otherwise who would go with a slower build that requires micro over a faster build that doesn't require micro?

The ability of a build not needing micro, IS an advantage, not a disadvantage. In other words, even if EFGJack micro dungeon build runs faster, there would still be people who would continue to stick with sabway/discordway/spiritway because they are easier to use.

No one really micros in PvE outside of maybe right before a boss or flagging when there are multiple mobs really close to each other.

You're just making PvE sound way too complicated,you can run one of the more established H/H setups and roll through mobs without touching your heroes,that includes no flagging for most areas/mobs.

I'll repeat myself-I LIKE MESMER HEROES,but they aren't good and never will be,so you need to stop trying to act like your build is as good as/better then necro/rit based hero setups.

byteme! · May 31, 2010, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Right......and a 2 minute video from your friend proves what? If he has time to flag his heroes he has time to micro. Try Shards without any flagging using that setup on a longer video rather then a 2 minute clip which can be doctored. For all we know, he could've failed numerous times only to provide the best video of the bunch.

Anyways I'm done. I've read enough of your posts to know where this is all going.

Daesu · May 31, 2010, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

Right......and a 2 minute video from your friend proves what? If he has time to flag his heroes he has time to micro. Try Shards without any flagging using that setup on a longer video rather then a 2 minute clip which can be doctored. For all we know, he could've failed numerous times only to provide the best video of the bunch.

Notice that the only reason he flagged at the beginning is to prevent his heroes from moving forward while he pulled. After pulling he always unflag them immediately.

He has made enough videos and tried enough experiments on HM Shards to know what works and what would not work. Why don't one of you guys try HM Shards yourselves, for a change, on another non-smite h/h build, without micro and runes, and show us how it goes.

Myotheraccount · May 31, 2010, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Notice that the only reason he flagged at the beginning is to prevent his heroes from moving forward while he pulled. After pulling he always unflag them immediately.

He has made enough videos and tried enough experiments on HM Shards to know what works and what would not work. Why don't one of you guys try HM Shards yourselves, for a change, on another non-smite h/h build, without micro and runes, and show us how it goes.

That's called micro. Lol

Show full SoO run, speed it up like x5 so video is not too long then maybe it will show something. Killing first three mobs in a dungeon is not much more convincing than killing Raptors outside Rata. Before you do that, you can't argue anything. Oh and you might consider filming your char instead of using your friend as a meat shield.

Jeydra · May 31, 2010, 04:57 PM // 16:57

You have the balls to say "show full SoO run" when you haven't shown anything this topic?? Or even tried something and posted the results?? What makes you think you have more right to talk than someone who's actually tried?? Pardon me, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

@Daesu - that video's actually rather impressive, barring one thing: the lack of a microable Prot Spirit. The Ele bosses in SoO will massacre it, or anything AoE heavy really. You don't have a fallback as well if you take some deaths; Prot Spirit gets increasingly important the more DP you accumulate.

I would be a lot more willing to use Mesmers if you could have Prot Spirit in the team build somewhere. That's what I've been trying to do, although I've not put the build to serious test yet. Can you come up with something?

I'll go ahead and try what you asked for btw.

EDIT: The conditions put me in somewhat of a bind. I'm not going to salvage all the runes off my heroes, so that's out. It's hard to play completely without micro as well, knowing full well that I'm risking Eruption / Churning Earth.

I obviously can't use the MM in Shards. I can't use a Smiter as required. Then I wanted to use a Mesmer (pre-update VoR bar), then I remembered they were the ones under consideration so they're out as well. So I tried Paragon at first, which worked well enough that I'm confident I can breeze the dungeon with some micro. I still took deaths however. To be expected since my Paragon's only there for the dual Fall Backs when I want to run fast, and he's facing Eruption + BSurge anyway. That left Necro. I loaded a SS bar that I haven't used in ages, but still including Prot Spirit and Aegis (and Rend Enchants, although as required I didn't micro it). It went smoother this time, although I did still take a death in the first four mobs.

This was completely without micro. I'm very confident that with just the basic pull, I can avoid taking any deaths. I'm also much more confident about finishing the dungeon than I would be with the builds in the video since I have Prot Spirit to micro. Finally, I ran my normal Air bar (YMLAD / FH / EBVAS / Air Attune / LOrb / Chain Lightning / GoLE / AP), and I used Lo Sha + Cynn + Hertha + Mhenlo.

Therefore in this area I think the Mesmers are pretty weak. How about trying against Borguus Blisterbark? During the ZBounty a few days ago I brought an improved PI bar (with the prots, however) to Sacnoth Valley. I did do some micro, but I was already fighting two Flowstones when Borguus Blisterbark descended on me. I know from experience (albeit before the update that took away HM fast casting) that if I had my MM hero instead of Gwen and got caught by surprise, I would very likely have wiped. This time though, I took only one death. I think this may be an area where the Mesmers are better, although it is highly specialized. After all, where do you find lots of dangerous Fire Eles aside from Sacnoth Valley and Forgewight?

Another area to try against is Slaver's. I'd suggest trying Thommis and trying to kill the first few groups. Here however, not having Frozen Soil is going to bite.