Curse

Ranger Jaap · May 25, 2010, 10:32 AM // 10:32

1 word PANIC

Steps_Descending · May 25, 2010, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I can't see much else to Mesmer heroes. They simply don't deal damage. As far as my standard setup is concerned, I can't drop the minion bomber (essential prots, not to mention meat shield) or the two Rits (heavy damage, some defense). There's simply no room for a Mesmer, and they continue to be subpar. That's my impression.

You're right about one thing, mesmer are still subpar as a damage dealer. So a dual mesmer build will automatically be more defensive than killing. But now the they can profide more defense and offense at the same time. You won't see a lot of mainstream mesmer heavy builds, but I'm sure it could replace a defensive hero like the bomber in low-minion area.

Jeydra · May 25, 2010, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Re-read the OP.

It's theorycraft, not debate over other classes superiority or the fact DPS is still king.

Interrupts=lol.

He said "has anyone come up with a H/H build focusing on mesmer buffs" and I'm saying it's not worth the effort because nothing useful will come out of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

You're right about one thing, mesmer are still subpar as a damage dealer. So a dual mesmer build will automatically be more defensive than killing. But now the they can profide more defense and offense at the same time. You won't see a lot of mainstream mesmer heavy builds, but I'm sure it could replace a defensive hero like the bomber in low-minion area.

It can replace the bomber, although it still faces competition from Smiters in particular (as well as dual Fall Back Paragons, sometimes). That's the most it can do though, and since it can't bring prots ... there'll still be a problem.

By the way the bomber is a great defensive and offensive hero. That's the beauty of spiritway - all your damage doubles as defense.

Daesu · May 25, 2010, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

PI KD foes, foes not attacking, Clumsy/Wandering Eye won't triger as much or get wasted and you end up dealing even less damage. Taking it with this setup is counter-productive.

Not true, PI has a recharge. SoC and Wandering Eye would still be able to trigger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

You're right about one thing, mesmer are still subpar as a damage dealer. So a dual mesmer build will automatically be more defensive than killing. But now the they can profide more defense and offense at the same time. You won't see a lot of mainstream mesmer heavy builds, but I'm sure it could replace a defensive hero like the bomber in low-minion area.

PI, Panic, Stolen Speed, Shared Burden, are all about AoE shutdown. They are defensive skills. The remaining skills on their bar cause damage/more interrupts, call that Interrupt-and-Spank or Shutdown-and-Spank.

Xenomortis · May 25, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It can replace the bomber, although it still faces competition from Smiters in particular (as well as dual Fall Back Paragons, sometimes). That's the most it can do though, and since it can't bring prots ... there'll still be a problem.

You could stick Prot Spirit and Aegis on a Mesmer. I'm not saying it'd be very effective though - you'll have a messy spec on your hands.
Shame Fast Casting wouldn't shorten the cast or recharge times on Aegis.
You could argue that the disruption provided means you need less prots, but prots come first in my book and I'm not sure I trust just Lina or Razah to provide me with Prot Spirit or Shelter respectively - the former is crap and the latter may lose Shelter and if that happens, you're in trouble.

Rits are so strong that not taking one requires some real justification and even not taking two can seem silly depending on your profession and build.

The problem here is that you have three hero slots and a lot of heroes. Half your team has to be made up with henchmen with fairly mediocre builds and so you need to squeeze as much as possible out of your three heroes and yourself. Taking anything weaker than what we already have is counterproductive.

As for actual heroes:
Elites I might consider are Psychic Instability, Keystone Signet and perhaps Panic; but really, I don't think much of them. Panic I really don't think would actually work out to be very effective, there are very few effective signets to make Keystone worthwhile and PI is in Fast Casting.
I might consider Shared Burden in a dual spec, but it'll only really help vs casters a little bit since heroes don't need much help interrupting and against physicals, I'd simply use Enfeebling Blood.

In short, I would like to take a Mesmer in my H/H teams. Some of the skills are nice disruption that would make life easier.
But I cannot justify the cost of a precious hero slot for it when there are more useful alternatives on sale.
Being able to take 7 heroes would reduce or remove that problem, but it would just trivialise most of PvE. The other option is to nerf everything else.

Daesu · May 25, 2010, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

I didn't say they won't. L2r. :>

But foes will spend 4s on their butts every 4s or so. They may not trigger Clumsy/Eye in time and SoC won't be much use either at that time. With Clumsy/Eye/SoC you want foes to be attacking as much as pssible and PI stops them from attacking half the time hence counter-productive.

Read the skill description, PI natural recharges in 12s not 4s or so (even at 16 FC it wont be 4s) and if you have actually tried it out in game, you would know that SoC and Wandering Eye are used a lot even with PI in the bar.

Myotheraccount · May 25, 2010, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

PI KD foes, foes not attacking, Clumsy/Wandering Eye won't trigger as much or get wasted and you end up dealing even less damage. Taking it with this setup is counter-productive.

No, PI has a recharge. SoC and Wandering Eye would still trigger.

I didn't say they won't. L2r. :>

Foes will be spending 4s on their butts every 4s or so. They may not trigger Clumsy/Eye in time and SoC won't be much use either when they are knocked down. With Clumsy/Eye/SoC you want foes to be attacking as much as possible and PI stops them from attacking half the time with KD hence counter-productive.

Jeydra · May 25, 2010, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You could stick Prot Spirit and Aegis on a Mesmer. I'm not saying it'd be very effective though - you'll have a messy spec on your hands.

It's not just the spec. Energy is a major problem too. Prot Spirit and Aegis are expensive spells. Necros use them well because of Soul Reaping. Mesmers don't get Soul Reaping. Where will they get the energy to use these prots effectively and still be semi-effective damage-dealers?

If I could use more heroes, I'd probably add Curses first (MoP / Barbs), followed by Mesmers.

Xenomortis · May 25, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It's not just the spec. Energy is a major problem too. Prot Spirit and Aegis are expensive spells. Necros use them well because of Soul Reaping. Mesmers don't get Soul Reaping. Where will they get the energy to use these prots effectively and still be semi-effective damage-dealers?

Mesmers will never be effective damage dealers. Visions of Regret is as good as it gets for them and a Necro is better for that stuff.
Disruption doesn't generally require too heavy a spec but if you don't value or want for disruption that much then don't bother with Mesmers.

I've run the prots on a Mes hero and energy wasn't too bad (it wasn't good, but it wasn't awful) but I did have a fair bit in Inspiration. A hero mesmer's energy is always somewhat erratic.

FoxBat · May 25, 2010, 04:22 PM // 16:22

A little off topic? But the mesmer dom hench are real tempting now with the FC recharges and random buffs. Much moreso than some crappy ele damage or warriors that can't path to save their life.

Myotheraccount · May 25, 2010, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Read the skill description, PI recharges in 12s not 4s or so and if you have actually tried it out in game, you would know that SoC and Wandering Eye are used a lot even with PI in the bar.

Ups! Daesu so baed. PI ~8s recharge on 12 FC, 4s KD which leaves mobs with 4s window to attack inb4 hero rupts and knocks them down again. :>

fireflyry · May 25, 2010, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

He said "has anyone come up with a H/H build focusing on mesmer buffs" and I'm saying it's not worth the effort because nothing useful will come out of it.

I agree but that's stating the obvious, depending on your definition of "useful" and you missed my point.It's just theorycraft and mucking around with build ideas, not hero build vs hero build.

Attempting to justify the discussion on the basis of comparative strength to Spiritway is redundant as nobody would disagree with something so blatantly obvious but that's not what the thread is about.I enjoy threads like this that give me ideas I may have otherwise missed.

Heck a large reason I still play is for the enjoyment of build and skill experimentation and this has given me a reason to dust off the mesmers and experiment with them.

Not to steam-roll vanq's, but for personal enjoyment.

Try a few Mesmers with Panic on the bar.It's hilarious in many areas and due to the influx of newer players in my alliance from steam I'm doing a lot of NM helping new members where I can roll what I want and mix things up just for the lol.

Anyway I get where your coming from but not all build discussion has to revolve around ''..it's not as strong as the current meta.../end thread.", especially after such a class altering update.

Take it easy.

Daesu · May 25, 2010, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Mesmers will never be effective damage dealers. Visions of Regret is as good as it gets for them and a Necro is better for that stuff.
Disruption doesn't generally require too heavy a spec but if you don't value or want for disruption that much then don't bother with Mesmers.

I've run the prots on a Mes hero and energy wasn't too bad (it wasn't good, but it wasn't awful) but I did have a fair bit in Inspiration. A hero mesmer's energy is always somewhat erratic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Anyway I get where your coming from but not all build discussion has to revolve around ''..it's not as strong as the current meta.../end thread.", especially after such a class altering update.

Take it easy.

I agree with both fireflyry and Xenomortis, I wouldn't bring 2 mesmer heroes if I want the strongest possible build or even the build with the most damage.

Now mesmers have a niche that they didn't have before, AoE shutdown so you can nuke. Sure, it is a defensive move and frankly, not that reliable. But it is still a niche that mesmers now possess.

FlyMoto · May 26, 2010, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Just theorycrafting a mesmer pair for pve, i'd end up with something like:

Dom hero
Dom 15, FC 10, Insp 10
Mistrust
Chaos Storm
Wastrel's Worry
Cry of Frustration
Energy Surge
Unnatural Signet (or enchant removal if area needed)
Waste Not Want Not
Power Drain

Illusion Hero
14 Illusion, 13 FC
Clumsiness
Wandering Eye
Signet of Clumsiness
Psychic Instability
Arcane Conundrum (mainly for energy)
Frustration (could really be substituted for about anything)
Accumulated Pain/Mirror of Disenchantment (could be substituted for some more damage)
Res Chant

I'd imagine that with PI, Clumsiness, Wandering Eye, Mistrust, Signet of Clumsiness, Cry of Frustration, and Power Drain that the enemy group isn't going to be accomplishing a lot quickly. Throw in some damage (ESurge, Chaos Storm, Wastrel's Worry) and enchant removal and I don't see a group lasting long. The main problem I see with this build is that the damage really isn't amazing and if the enemies aren't clumped up well the damage gets worse. The plus side is that these builds should buy you enough time for a good portion of the rest of your team to rip through the enemies quickly. If you ran something like a MB as the third hero, a one-monk backline would be very feasible in many areas.

Daesu · May 26, 2010, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Just thought that I would share this video that my guildie made with 2 mesmer heroes, 1 with PI/Illusion and the other with Stolen Speed/Dom in HM Riven Earth.

Like I said, they are not the most powerful build but they are feasible in general HM.

http://www.xfire.com/video/2be073/

EDIT: turns out he only needed 1 healer.

AtomicMew · May 26, 2010, 05:55 AM // 05:55

From what I can tell, that vid makes them look pretty strong. It seems the shutdown improved the durability of his minion wall, which kept things decently balled up for his AoE. It's hard to tell, though.

Daesu · May 26, 2010, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

From what I can tell, that vid makes them look pretty strong. It seems the shutdown improved the durability of his minion wall, which kept things decently balled up for his AoE. It's hard to tell, though.

Yes, actually the build seems quite decent. He even took it into HM Shards of Orr just to experiment and it was surprisingly effective for a non-smite team.

But there are times when the heroes would miss interrupting at certain key moments and the team would wipe. Other times he would clear many SoO mobs without a single death. His mesmer heroes are not even decently runed and do not have any vigor runes with them.

For HM SoO, he brings Lina along instead of Cynn and a SoS channel/restore rit instead of the MB for the experiment.

Faye Aeris · May 26, 2010, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Here's what I run, it's similar to a lot of the builds that have been posted on PvX:

Ineptitude:
OQZDAYwjSIDZAkAvArAIgcQ5ZA

Panic:
OQhkAgC8gGKCRkB0w0b6yggfxA

Minion Bomber:
OANDUspPSVVyBVBKgoBbh1DBEA

As a player, I run ER Infuse. This allows me to take great liberty in crafting hero builds without having to worry about fitting heals in and splitting attributes. The Ineptitude mesmer shuts down melee mobs and can do a substantial amount of damage to casters as well, due to the AI tendency to autoattack everything. The Panic mesmer takes care of pesky spells from any caster mobs, while still dealing a respectable amount of damage. The minion bomber is there as a line of defense, as my team is quite squishy.

I don't take Psychic Instability because of it's inherent anti-synergy with the Ineptitude mesmer. I also don't take Shared Burden for the same reason. In my opinion, Energy Surge is one of the weaker domination elites because everything else is just so awesome. Panic is there to help with interrupts, as the mesmer heroes can't always catch everything. This way, you can ensure most key skills get interrupted, without even having to do anything. The rest of the skills on the bars are all AoE, to deal big damages to multiple foes. Chaos Storm has been omitted because heroes never use it. Accumulated Pain was the only non-AoE, and that's because it's spammable Deep Wound + 79 damage, which is pretty amazing. This setup can roll through everything I've tried in hard mode, except Shiro (for obvious reasons).

Judging from the time it takes to kill things, I'd say the damage is about the same as an area of effect discordway team. In cases where three or more foes are adjacent to each other (a common occurence in PvE), the damage far exceeds anything I've been able to get with spiritway. If you ball properly, mobs will go down before you can even get a hit in. If not, then the heroes are fine at spiking down individual targets as well.

I'm open to any suggestions, as this is the best I could come up with.

Note: For the most part, I'm able to soloheal any area in hard mode. I'd imagine if you were playing a physical or other non-healer character, you'd be fine with just the 1 or 2 henchman healers.

EDIT: After reading some more of the discussion, I see that the issue of taking a ritualist is one of the primary debates going on. In my opinion, I think that a ritualist is great to have, but a hero ritualist requires some micromanagement to function properly. It is possible to replace the minion bomber with a ritualist, but you either have to micromanage the casting of spirits or slot something like Reclaim Essence on the hero to allow it to recast new spirits every battle. Because a hero ritualist refuses to cast spirits if it is still in range of the old ones, occasionally it just sits there, useless unless I make it cast the spirits myself. I prefer the minion bomber for the fact that its summons can move on to the next battle, making things easier for me. In addition, I can spec into Protection Prayers for something nice like Aegis or Protective Spirit, just in case a scary melee comes wailing down on my poor mesmers.

Also, my friend likes to run SoS, and PuGing with ritualist players is such a pain if I have a hero with spirits. I'd rather have something I can join a group with and go right away, without having to worry about overlapping spirits.

Quail Stomp · May 28, 2010, 03:04 PM // 15:04

I like to play around with builds and setups just as much as anyone but it would be hard for me to take more than 2 mesmers. I know others on this thread do not like PI but its a great defensive skill, you would take it for the same reasons you would have an earth shaker in your team build. You dont have to spec high in fc unless you really want that 4 sec kd, 3 sec kd is plenty of time for your team to gain an advantage. Stuff like 2 or 3 panics would work but so would alot of other stuff in pve.

Myotheraccount · May 28, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Just thought that I would share this video that my guildie made with 2 mesmer heroes, 1 with PI/Illusion and the other with Stolen Speed/Dom in HM Riven Earth.

Like I said, they are not the most powerful build but they are feasible in general HM.

http://www.xfire.com/video/2be073/

EDIT: turns out he only needed 1 healer.

SoLS + Symbolic Celerity. Synergies has flavur. Also, heals are for the weak. Everything depends on how well you pull and flag your Heroes, no ammount of healing can change this. A lesson for you, Daesu.