Curse

zwei2stein · May 26, 2008, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Why no MoP and rigor mortis instead?

(just fyi, splinter damage is physical (weird physical kind like whilrling defense one), it triggers barbs/MoP, making proper targeting of MoP mostly non issue and making splash damage much more devastating, priority targets are rarely blocking anyway ...)

DarkSpirit · May 26, 2008, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

DarkSpirit: I'm not a big fan of two-MM builds (outside of Vizunah and the like) as it banks *too much* reliance on corpses. From my experiences, one MM cycles corpses enough that there won't be any left over for a second MM.

Perhaps more true for bone minions than for the longer recharge of shamblings and the higher energy cost of fiends. One way to reduce this problem is to let the shamblings/fiends MM wear bloodstain insignia but not have it for the bone minion MM.

Bone minions are cheap and they die quite fast but you only need 5 corpses to form a full army with them.

Belonah15 · May 26, 2008, 08:01 AM // 08:01

"3-Necro HM Build"? "Cut yourself"? This is called Sabway - it is its name, its what people know it as. Start chewing on the ankles, the name is "Sabway". Petition to OP to change title accordingly.

cyber88 · May 26, 2008, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belonah15

"3-Necro HM Build"? "Cut yourself"? This is called Sabway - it is its name, its what people know it as. Start chewing on the ankles, the name is "Sabway". Petition to OP to change title accordingly.

In case you didn't notice, the OP is the creator of this build.

Super Igor · May 26, 2008, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Wow, cool hero builds, glad you have put [weapon of warding] into there as the lack of blocking thingies on a squishy was a pain in the ass. I dont get why in the four man area build you have to [weapon of warding]s tho, why? N/Rts one is longer lasing and should be enough...why not use splinter on the SS...it helps with damage a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

[build prof=Rt/ ][Offering of Spirit][Splinter Weapon][Ancestors' Rage][Weapon of Warding][no skill][Protective was Kaolai][Life][Death Pact Signet][/build]

The difference between a 10-spec and a 14-spec Splinter is *huge* so whatever you do, definitely slot that in.

Above build is a bomb...been using it for long time too...maybe hard on energy...slightly...but only if you dont micro at all, which you should do, and yeah, 14 spec SW/AR is aweasome...too bad the Rit doesnt synergize with the concept as much as Necs do.

Quote:

DarkSpirit: I'm not a big fan of two-MM builds (outside of Vizunah and the like) as it banks *too much* reliance on corpses. From my experiences, one MM cycles corpses enough that there won't be any left over for a second MM.

Hmm, cant agree on this, two MM oncept can work like a charm in amny areas...Id say in any area were corpses are in a good supply and those areas are rather common.

Super Igor · May 26, 2008, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Wow, cool hero builds, glad you have put [weapon of warding] into there as the lack of blocking thingies on a squishy was a pain in the ass. I dont get why in the four man area build you have to [weapon of warding]s tho, why? N/Rts one is longer lasing and should be enough...why not use splinter on the SS...it helps with damage a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

[build prof=Rt/ ][Offering of Spirit][Splinter Weapon][Ancestors' Rage][Weapon of Warding][no skill][Protective was Kaolai][Life][Death Pact Signet][/build]

The difference between a 10-spec and a 14-spec Splinter is *huge* so whatever you do, definitely slot that in.

Above build is a bomb...been using it for long time too...maybe hard on energy...slightly...but only if you dont micro at all, which you should do, and yeah, 14 spec SW/AR is aweasome...too bad the Rit doesnt synergize with the concept as much as Necs do.

Quote:

DarkSpirit: I'm not a big fan of two-MM builds (outside of Vizunah and the like) as it banks *too much* reliance on corpses. From my experiences, one MM cycles corpses enough that there won't be any left over for a second MM.

Hmm, cant agree on this, two MM oncept can work like a charm in amny areas...Id say in any area were corpses are in a good supply and those areas are rather common.

Mickey · May 26, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belonah15

"3-Necro HM Build"? "Cut yourself"? This is called Sabway - it is its name, its what people know it as. Start chewing on the ankles, the name is "Sabway". Petition to OP to change title accordingly.

Because the OP created the build, I think he/she can change it whatever the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO she wants, so get off her case and make a constructive comment, mmkay?

On topic: Defile Defenses for ease of no micro-managing, but I love Rigor Mortis when facing those pesky Ranger destroyers in HM with there long lasting Lightning Reflexes.

Also, for 4-Man Areas with not a lot of corpses, or if your feeling like switching it up, a Stunning Striker Paragon is great.

Turbobusa · May 26, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Just to add that the channeling/resto rit is amazingly efficient. I like mend body and soul in the optionnal slot, on heroes that spell that return 3e if you hold an item might be better.

Sab · May 26, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Rigor probably isn't the best default choice on the SS. so I updated that.

I don't like Mark of Pain outside of pew pew Paragon builds because it causes scattering. It's a good skill with focused damage, but with this build, it's not consistently effective.

Super Igor: About 2x WoW on the 4-man builds, blocking pretty much wins vs most of the mobs there. Splinter is ok, you might get a few triggers every now and then but it's not anywhere near as strong in small settings.

As for the dual-MM thing, I just don't like it. It places too much emphasis on getting corpses, and you lose a lot of effectiveness in low-corpse parts of zones or if the enemy gets a few corpse control skills off.

Kurt · May 26, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

My main is a necro and I mostly run this SS build:

[SS Curses;OAVCY8xUewSgQTZgdgcZVFGH]

Would that work good enough to replace the SS hero?

Super Igor · May 26, 2008, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

As for the dual-MM thing, I just don't like it. It places too much emphasis on getting corpses, and you lose a lot of effectiveness in low-corpse parts of zones or if the enemy gets a few corpse control skills off.

Yeah its like a Shattersin, not versatile but can work wonders in some areas, Asuran areas to name a few, steamrolled everyone of them, same for Vanguard areas...with all the annoying Charr. In areas with any mobs that tont leave a body behind them agreed, not good.

Bront · May 27, 2008, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt

My main is a necro and I mostly run this SS build:

[SS Curses;OAVCY8xUewSgQTZgdgcZVFGH]

Would that work good enough to replace the SS hero?

It should.

I was about to tell you that echo is bad on a hero, but that's you, so it shouldn't be too bad.

If you're playing the SS, then the 3rd hero might be either an interupt/hex removal mesmer (which compliments what's missing in this build currently), An Ele nuker (Dual Atunement Rodgorts nuker works for me, but use the nuker of your choice), a caster support paragaron (uninteruptable spells and extra energy never hurt), maybe bring the other SS anyway, or even, heaven forbid, a WoH hybrid monk (While the henchie monks do work ok, the extra pressure relief of a well build monk could be useful in HM).

I'd suggest the mesmer. I ran a build with a Monk primary that had a very similar MM and SS necro as this build, but with a mesmer build that worked fairly well instead of the healer (as I did the healing well enough, and I didn't have the 3rd Necro).

[Bront's Interupt Mesmer;OQhkAoC8AGKTOQ5fByAjQNQDI5C]

It was quite effective.

Sab · May 27, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

I'm not sure why you'd use up half of a hero's bar on interrupts. Targets that need to be repeatedly shut down are more reliably handled by Daze, while random spells here and there will often be tanked by the minions. The spells that lands on your party can be healed through and usually aren't much of a threat to begin with. In situations where you do want interrupts, you'd be better off bringing them on your own bar as you can prioritize and get more out of each cast.

DarkSpirit · May 27, 2008, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I'm not sure why you'd use up half of a hero's bar on interrupts. Targets that need to be repeatedly shut down are more reliably handled by Daze, while random spells here and there will often be tanked by the minions. The spells that lands on your party can be healed through and usually aren't much of a threat to begin with. In situations where you do want interrupts, you'd be better off bringing them on your own bar as you can prioritize and get more out of each cast.

Unfortunately, Daze is not readily available to every character class. And the only class agnostic daze skill, Technobabble lasts only for 6s with max Asuran rank and has a 18s recharge. As for the effectiveness of having interrupts on the players bar, that would depend on the lag situation and the player's reflexes. One minor weakness of sabway has been the lack of interrupts so you are not exploiting the superior reflexes from the heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

As for the dual-MM thing, I just don't like it. It places too much emphasis on getting corpses, and you lose a lot of effectiveness in low-corpse parts of zones or if the enemy gets a few corpse control skills off.

In low-corpse area, sabway would not have worked well anyway since it depends on the soul reaping energy from the MM and a major reason why sabway works well is also because of the effectiveness of minions for damage mitigation and to dish out damage on their own. The dual MM build is just a way to extend that further but with healing capabilities from having DS on more minions. Even though the heals are not as high as having a dedicated healer in sabway, but it makes up for it in terms more damage, damage mitigation, and Soul Reaping from more minions.

By the way, what would you recommend for low-corpse areas that would make a MM not feasible? I am thinking Ether Renewal.

Sab · May 27, 2008, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Unfortunately, Daze is not readily available to every character class. And the only class agnostic daze skill, Technobabble lasts only for 6s with max Asuran rank and has a 18s recharge. As for the effectiveness of having interrupts on the players bar, that would depend on the lag situation and the player's reflexes. One minor weakness of the build has always been the lack of interrupts so you are not exploiting the superior reflexes from the heroes.

The other weakness is the reliance on corpses. Although in most places, this should not be a problem but there are some places where corpses are not readily available.

Since the player is going to switch out a hero, he could bring a BHA Ranger or a Stunning Strike Paragon instead, which can Daze, do better damage, and synergize with the buffs on the other heroes (Barbs, Splinter, and whatever else you choose to bring).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

In low-corpse area, sabway would not have worked well anyway since it depends on the soul reaping energy from the MM and a major reason why sabway works well is also because of the effectiveness of minions for damage mitigation and to dish out damage on their own. The dual MM build is just a way to extend that further but with healing capabilities from having DS on more minions. Even though the heals are not as high as having a dedicated healer in sabway, but it makes up for it in terms more damage, damage mitigation, and Soul Reaping from more minions.

By the way, what would you recommend for low-corpse areas that would make a MM not feasible?

I'd just run a different build completely - like:

[Song of Restoration][Holy Spear][Vicious Attack][Ballad of Restoration][Fall Back][Go For The Eyes][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return]

[Cruel Spear][Vicious Attack][Stand Your Ground][Never Surrender][Fall Back][Go For The Eyes][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return]

[Spiteful Spirit][Enfeebling Blood][Barbs][Rip Enchantment][Mark of Pain][Rigor Mortis][Splinter Weapon][Signet of Lost Souls]

Bront · May 27, 2008, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I'm not sure why you'd use up half of a hero's bar on interrupts. Targets that need to be repeatedly shut down are more reliably handled by Daze, while random spells here and there will often be tanked by the minions. The spells that lands on your party can be healed through and usually aren't much of a threat to begin with. In situations where you do want interrupts, you'd be better off bringing them on your own bar as you can prioritize and get more out of each cast.

Different effects, you constantly have one ready, and energy renewal. You could probably drop Power Spike for Chaos Storm if you want more damage (now that it's 5E), but I've found with 4 Interrupts, several of the enemy casters rarely get spells (or even the occasional skill) off.

You also get synergy with Empathy and Reckless Haste, group hex removal, and a character that generally has no energy problems what so ever.

DokkyDok · May 27, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Great builds...Thanks for making HM...well, not very hard...

Though I've found Icy Veins on the MM to be more useful than Jagged Bones.

Sha Noran · May 27, 2008, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Once a legend, always a legend; this thread is garunteed to get more attention than you probably want to deal with, Sab. =]

Despite the skill-by-skill bickering these threads always deteriorate into, I must say this is an excellently effecient hero bar setup for 90% of the game. Though I personally use a slightly different skill line up on my SS heroes, it's silly to say that this does not offer a very effective base template for those who want one.

DarkSpirit · May 27, 2008, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I'd just run a different build completely - like:

[Song of Restoration][Holy Spear][Vicious Attack][Ballad of Restoration][Fall Back][Go For The Eyes][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return]

[Cruel Spear][Vicious Attack][Stand Your Ground][Never Surrender][Fall Back][Go For The Eyes][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return]

[Spiteful Spirit][Enfeebling Blood][Barbs][Rip Enchantment][Mark of Pain][Rigor Mortis][Splinter Weapon][Signet of Lost Souls]

I dont think that would be enough protection for HM. But I would give it a try and see how it fares.

The offense is nice but you dont have condition or hex management and can do with more healing.

Paul Dawg · May 27, 2008, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Great thread!

What happened to [pure was li ming] on the N/Rt healer's bar? That's a great skill for mass condition-removal. It's whole lot more useful than specing into Blood just for [foul feast], wouldn't you say?

Edited for typos.