Curse

LifeInfusion · Mar 04, 2011, 05:46 PM // 17:46

PvX has http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Mo/Me_PvE_Healing_Burst_Hero in testing.

I have been running only one monk for a while (usually hench), but this is the hero build I settled on:
OwUUMs2+EIPexNy0vis87BZg7GA
12+1 DF --> +42 on burst (4 breakpoint from 13 DF)
11+1+1 Healing --> 140 healing burst = 182
6 Inspir
2+1 prot

Healing Burst
D-Kiss
Cure Hex
Mend ailment (disabled)
waste Not, want not (+5e / 15sec)
Leech signet ( +8e/20 sec)
Power drain (+8e/ 20sec)
Sig of rejuvenation (+0/8 sec)

I feel like Divine Intervention could be used instead of sig of rejuvenation, but it's too conditional. The only reason why there's no prots is because prot is at 3 and I run prot spirit, aegis, SOA on necro minion bomber.

This excels versus degen/pressure & necros carrying bulk enchantment strips, but sucks versus multiple mesmers with interrupts due to needing casts every 4 seconds.

The other main monk build that heroes can run, http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Mo/Me_Unyielding_Aura_Healer , has patient spirit. This results in overhealing; Dwayna's kiss under UA needs a stack of enchants/hexes (2+) to match Burst or it heals only 80-90ish.

Burst is better than WoH because it's less conditional. The offheal on N/Rt or Rt/any with Spirit Light will catch most of the <50% HP heals, making WoH much less useful.

However, an Avatar of Dwayna Dervish hero heals more degen/pressure, is interrupt /hex resistant (arcane conundrum + migraine + power block + daze don't matter = draw conditions/foul feast), and heals minions, so it's down to the spot heal that's stacked on top (Burst) and hex resistance (cure/d-kiss). You also have to bear with the Dervish's erratic AI.

Captain Bulldozer · Mar 04, 2011, 06:00 PM // 18:00

I myself have been going with a deny hexes hero, since the fuser and necros more than cover the healing. Still, this looks promising. I do, however, have concerns with heroes using Waste Not Want Not correctly. Maybe use leech sig and make WNWN optional instead?

I still think a monk roll is better suited to hybrid, but if you're going for straight heals, this wouldn't be so bad.

Grim Aragorn · Mar 04, 2011, 06:14 PM // 18:14

4 energy management skills on a monk bar, ill pass
imo: healing burst, ps, vig spirit, cure hex, dwaynas kiss,spotless soul, heal party, gole

Xenomortis · Mar 04, 2011, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Eh...
The one I'm playing with at the moment is;

Healing Burst
Dwayna's Kiss
Cure Hex
Shield of Absorption
Protective Spirit (this is never the only copy of this skill in my 7h teams so can be easily swapped)
Dwayna's Sorrow (only if an MB is in the team)
Power Drain
Leech Signet

I don't bother with condition removal because MBAS is awesome and always in my team somewhere. Hex removal is always nice but gets hard to fit in.
I really don't think Sig of Rejuvenation or a third energy gain skill are necessary. I had this hero in Duncan and I didn't have any issues with it.

Anaraky · Mar 04, 2011, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Been experimenting with Healing Burst as well, and found it to be pretty damn good. I've been using Heaven's Delight and Dwayna's Sorrow instead of WNWN and Rejuv sig, otherwise the exact same build. The combination between a strong single target heal and a moderate short CD party wide heal for only 5 energy is pretty phenomenal.

LifeInfusion · Mar 04, 2011, 07:02 PM // 19:02

The problem with dropping to below 3 energy management is that it doesn't break even on energy burning from healing burst + d-kiss on recharge (which is what the hero will do) + whatever else.

Burst: 5/(4+0.75+0.75)=-0.91e/s
D-kiss: 5/(3+1+0.75)=-1.05e/s

~-1.96~= -2e/s
+4/3 e/s regen
=-0.67

waste Not, want not (+5e / 15sec) =+1/3 (0.34)
Leech signet ( +8e/20 sec) = 0.4
Power drain (+8e/ 20sec) = 0.4

need 2 of the 3

edit: also I'm too lazy to switch WNWN and Leech/Power drain depending on area. In areas with heavy physicals, Power drain/leech signet don't do much.

The PVX version is pushing 8 inspiration, which means
waste Not, want not (+6e / 15sec) =0.4e/s
Leech signet ( +9e/20 sec) = 0.45e/s
Power drain (+12e/ 20sec) = 0.6e/s

a sidenote: chilblains spam is annoying when you have a UA hero ; since heroes can't hat swap you're limited to 89-96 (14-15 DF UA) party heals unless you want to take a -75HP hit. Even if you push 16DF you get ~12HP/sec which is easily met by Avatar of Dwayna and a few flash enchants. The Avatar of Dwayna build let my Minionbomber have 11 minions more or less constantly, neither monk build could do so.

Life Bringing · Mar 04, 2011, 08:57 PM // 20:57

I honestly don't understand why you'd run a dedicated healer. Orders derv and 2 copies of spirit light+pwk will get you through the hardest of areas with greater offensive power than a full bar of heals.

Kunder · Mar 04, 2011, 09:08 PM // 21:08

I have Aegis and Shielding Hands on my HB monk. Chaining Aegis is always powerful in PvE, and heroes do it semi-automatically which is great.

If I could get an AoD derv hero that would consistently outperform HB by a wide margin I would swap it out. The problem is erratic healing rate and not being within earshot of the entire party surprisingly often. I definitely have enough copies of Spirit Light along with passive prot to do without HB's single target heal for the most part, especially when minions become ridiculously tanky.

Life Bringing · Mar 04, 2011, 10:18 PM // 22:18

I don't know exactly how efficient a derv is at healing but the best bar I've found is:
AoD
Dark Fury
Order of Pain
Whirling Charge
Mystic Healing
Eremites Zeal
Meditation
Fleeting stability

Anaraky · Mar 05, 2011, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

I honestly don't understand why you'd run a dedicated healer. Orders derv and 2 copies of spirit light+pwk will get you through the hardest of areas with greater offensive power than a full bar of heals.

People aren't always able or willing to use two Rit heroes as fairly deep restoration nor use a Dervish for that matter.

Personally I use a dedicated healer at the moment so I can go a more offensive build on my other characters. For example instead of going an Orders/Dwayna Dervish and a Curse Necromancer (which I view as a must due to me being a Warrior and having a MB in my team) I can go a Curse/Orders hybrid coupled with a Healing Burst monk, gaining (in my eyes at least) both superior sustainability and support. Not to mention that in that case I also gain Dwayna's Sorrow which is great coupled with a Minion Bomber as well as freeing up my Ritualist hero spots for something other then Restoration/xx/x. Besides I've always found Monks way more reliable when healing as well, Dervishes has always given me "flimsy" results.

Just one example out of many. Dedicated healers aren't a must as some people view it, but it is far from useless as well. Claiming either is foolish.

Jeydra · Mar 05, 2011, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

Dedicated healers aren't a must as some people view it, but it is far from useless as well. Claiming either is foolish.

Is it? One thing I noticed during the H/H era was that all healer builds aimed at maximizing performance tended towards including both offense and defense on the hero. I see no strong reason why this wouldn't hold true in the 7-hero era.

LifeInfusion · Mar 05, 2011, 02:40 AM // 02:40

The only problem with not having a dedicated healer is if you only have one offheal, there's aftercast delay. With the Derv hero, you're able to move along faster due to no aftercast.

11+1+1 heal
9+1 DF (=8HP/sec ~4 regen)
9+1 Prot
6 Inspir

if you want to run prots I guess
Healing Burst,Dwayna's Kiss,Cure Hex, Sig of Rejuvenation, SoA (2nd copy),Aegis (2nd copy), Power Drain/Waste Not Want Not,Leech Signet

FoxBat · Mar 05, 2011, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Is it? One thing I noticed during the H/H era was that all healer builds aimed at maximizing performance tended towards including both offense and defense on the hero. I see no strong reason why this wouldn't hold true in the 7-hero era.

It's hard to separate that from the fact that they're mostly necros abusing soul reaping, resto only requires one attribute to be effective, and the resto elites are mostly crap. Discord has some claim, but calling stuff like Icy Veins or Xinrae's "meaningful offense" is kindof pushing it. Certainly better than nothing if you are running N/Rt anyway, but not really a good reason to run N/Rt by itself.

Life Bringing · Mar 05, 2011, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Actually, the 2 best resto templates were SoS and me/rt. You're completely correct in saying that necros had no meaningful offense.

LifeInfusion · Mar 05, 2011, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Actually, the 2 best resto templates were SoS and me/rt. You're completely correct in saying that necros had no meaningful offense.

Already running SoS w/ restor. I'm assuming the mesmer you speak of is some kind of Fast cast Psychic instability/panic thing with inspiration to power the energy for restor (which is reduced in recharge by fast cast), rather than 24 to 42 energy every 15 seconds from Soul reaping (on top of 6 to 9 energy every 8 seconds from SOLS).

Kunder · Mar 05, 2011, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Is it? One thing I noticed during the H/H era was that all healer builds aimed at maximizing performance tended towards including both offense and defense on the hero. I see no strong reason why this wouldn't hold true in the 7-hero era.

That was more because hench damage sucked, literally every one of them was near worthless. Unless you wanted to take 2x as long to clear an area you had to bring high damage on at least 2 out of 3 heroes. Hench healing, on the other hand, was acceptable assuming you weren't straining them to the point of energy depletion. For harder areas you just had to have some sort of supplemental party wide prot stuffed somewhere on a secondary of someone.

You generally want at least 1 pure healer to catch spike damage, and they can't be casting a 1-2s offensive spell at the time unless you want their target to be dead by the time they are ready. If you carry massive prot this isn't needed (ST/Imbagon). Minions also act as a prot of their own that can be the strongest in the game or fairly marginal depending on the area and relative positioning. Party-wide healing, which isn't time-sensitive as long as it occurs regularly, can be delegated to damage characters as you please.

Channeling/Rest heroes I absolutely <3. Too many power skills in both of those lines to pass up. Pretty much always the first in the party.

Rictuar · Mar 05, 2011, 05:46 AM // 05:46

I've actually been using a very similar build on my monk hero since the update, with great results. Healing Burst monk + ER Prot hero is more than enough redbar and defense to cover most areas. I replaced signet of rejuv. with dwaynas sorrow for the minions, as I'm not a fan of the signet. So far I've been able to fly through WiK HM no problem, even stormed the front gate in riverside assassination with no deaths whatsoever.

FoxBat · Mar 05, 2011, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Actually, the 2 best resto templates were SoS and me/rt. You're completely correct in saying that necros had no meaningful offense.

Is that mesmer actually doing damage or just (also valuable) interrupts? While Me/Rt healers can easily toss a panic or PI + energy interrupts, I haven't seen them manage the same energy or split attributes for clumsiness or wastrel spam with meaningful healing. Most of the time these interrupts are doing more for you defensively than offensively as well.

I'll also add that while SoS/Resto is a great combination, you aren't really gaining flexibility of damage when needed vs healing when needed, as a discord necro would. Your hero just pops a few skills with big recharges that do a ton of DPS over time, while putting most of their active effect into healing, or else sitting there waiting to do so. In some sense that's even more effective and desirable - but it's a specific accident of resto having it's strength not rely on elites, and being splashable requiring only one attribute invested, and SoS offense not requiring much casting. Also notable that you can't use more than one of these in a team.

Basically the combined offensive and defensive capabilities a hybrid brings to the team can be evaluated on a scale against those that are pure defense or pure offense. Sometimes the hybrid comes out ahead - but of those, it has very little to do with their versatility, and everything to do with whether the total gain of a hybrid is preferable to a slot dedicated to one or the other.

Life Bringing · Mar 05, 2011, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Panic
Mistrust
Cry of Frustration
Chaos Storm
Power Drain
Leech Signet
Spirit Light
PwK

Healing and damage. I dont really understand what youre saying about the SoS/rest combo...But if you carry spirit light+pwk on two chars, youre achieving more versatile results with better spike+pressure response while using half as many skill slots.

The fact remains that the amount of healing necessary to roll through HM is very low. The faster you can kill, the less healing is needed. If i can fire off more offensive spells and have more of them due to bar compression in terms of emanagement skills, all while sustaining my team as well as a dedicated healer would, then there is a significant advantage in favor of the hybrid.

Anaraky · Mar 05, 2011, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Is it? One thing I noticed during the H/H era was that all healer builds aimed at maximizing performance tended towards including both offense and defense on the hero. I see no strong reason why this wouldn't hold true in the 7-hero era.

As the others have said, there where several reasons why people didn't run dedicated healers earlier with the biggest one being that the slots where filled with something relatively more important due to the fact that the healer henchmen's where OK. For example as a Warrior I would never leave home without Protective Spirit, SoH or Mark of Pain. Preferably I would have Splinter Weapon and some kind of Condition/Hex removal I could micro unto myself as well. Those criterias pretty much took three hero slots, leaving me no room for a dedicated healer. It's not the fact they are bad, but you had to focus on getting stuff you couldn't get from henchies first.

Quote:

Healing and damage. I dont really understand what youre saying about the SoS/rest combo...But if you carry spirit light+pwk on two chars, youre achieving more versatile results with better spike+pressure response while using half as many skill slots.

The fact remains that the amount of healing necessary to roll through HM is very low. The faster you can kill, the less healing is needed. If i can fire off more offensive spells and have more of them due to bar compression in terms of emanagement skills, all while sustaining my team as well as a dedicated healer would, then there is a significant advantage in favor of the hybrid.

However, with that kind of setup you are severely lacking prots and if you are using another hero for that you really don't gain a significant amount of damage anyway. You get some extra damage but the cost is that your hybrids can be caught doing something else when they would need to spike heal.

I've been using dual resto hybrid heroes as well, but changing them to a more offensive build and getting a dedicated healer netted me better results. More sustainability with roughly the same amount of damage.