Curse

LifeInfusion · Mar 07, 2011, 07:26 PM // 19:26

If your Ranger isn't running barrage, I'd say a Paragon would be a better choice since the only advantage pve-wise is adjacent AoE and d-shot.

Stand your ground's +24 armor = -34.02 % physical damage
Fall back = minions don't die as fast, wall quicker
Go for the eyes = 80-90% chance of 1.4x damage on all physicals, minions

12- 14 command is only 1-3 seconds downtime on SYG.

If you have Vicious Attack you also get a decent source of deep wound.

Motivation needs some fixing though but for command as long as you pump 8+ Leadership there's no problems with energy: you have two 10 energy shouts on 20 cooldown and +4-6 energy from GFTE every 2-6 seconds.

bhavv · Mar 07, 2011, 08:08 PM // 20:08

I used to run a command paragon when I played searing flames for fall back, they're on fire, and sometimes tried running both hayda + morgan as motivation and command.

It worked great in normal mode. Its nowhere near good enough in HM for me personally.

Right now I'd still rather have the ineptitude mesmer instead. AoE blind, huge AoE damage numbers, no fall back unfortunately, but Accumulated Pain is a great deep would spell.

The only thing that Paragons had that I needed was fall back, the rest of their skill bar weakens my party too much more than adding another caster would.

SYG isnt really that great, it only works when stood still, which heroes never are. I often run Ebon Battle Standard of Courage anyway and stick a flag in the middle. That works fine, no need for a paragon.

Both damage and support from a paragon hero is too low. Fall Back is the only thing keeping them valid.

Now if Anet could update the paragon AI not to auto spam fall back and incoming on recharge all the time, and make them chain the two skills instead, I'd consider using one again.

FoxBat · Mar 07, 2011, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Anthem of envy with your spirits. That's enough damage justification.

Also volley paragons are plenty effective, often better at pumping envy anthems.

Even if you aren't running paragon primaries, I would run some command stuff as secondaries on necros, mesmers and the like. Fall back is much better than another unnecessary copy of aegis that doesn't shield your minion/spirit wall anyway.

Tender Care · Mar 07, 2011, 08:28 PM // 20:28

3 paras heroes work great even in HM, great survivors, but not fast killing. Anyway if u are para also just play imbagon with 2 motivations and a command.....beat the game in other way..

LifeInfusion · Mar 07, 2011, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Problem with anthems is the cast time. It's partly why I hate motivation. I tried running 2 paragons, one with Finale of Restor (which they use retardedly) and Ballad of Restor ; one with command stuff. (I find it hard to justify a 2s cast Aria of restoration, Song of Restor, ) The Finale of Restor Paragon casted Finale of Restor on things that were being attacked, but only one copy was up at any given time (13 motivation). I have a feeling Energizing Finale would have been more useful.

The only thing in Motivation that is spammable is "The power is yours!", which is elite (4 adrenaline) and gives +1 energy regen for 3seconds and Energizing Chorus is 4 adrenaline 1 activation (an excuse to lower leadership but not much other use). Chorus of Restoration is 4 adrenaline 1 activation 5 recharge and is only useful in multi-paragon teams. Lyric of Zeal is of very little use in general. What motivation needs, I think, is something which is a spammy shout that isn't ridiculous (GFTE is crazy enough, as was old Watch Yourself! with 0 recharge).

I think 8 motiv "TPiY!" with Energizing Finale is probably more useful than the entire motivation line, given the amount of healing power Avatar of Dwayna gives out, on demand, with 0 cast. The problem is if party members are at max energy, heroes don't use TPiY! at all.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 07, 2011, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Hell, smack three paragon heroes, two R/P heroes an MM, and an Orders ele and have fun.

Rhershy8 · Mar 07, 2011, 09:03 PM // 21:03

I totally agree w/ the Op here. Commandagons buffing 10+minions along with my barrage+SY upkeep is faceroll. And I'm currently only using one Paragon hero in my team setup... hmm that may change

Rites · Mar 07, 2011, 09:15 PM // 21:15

i run 2 volley paras with my barrager all the time. the paras have better e management than the ranger heroes

S4br3t00th · Mar 07, 2011, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Well, I'd rather say that the command line is underrated...
Mainly for Stand your ground, anthemn of envy for spirits, but above all for "fall back!". 10 points is enough on any other class that can manage it.
As for paragons... 3-4 of them can net very good results with the appropriate support

Improvavel · Mar 07, 2011, 10:44 PM // 22:44

And anthem of disruption is also amazing with spirits.

Paras are also very good to carry expensive skills like mirror of disenchantment or cry of frustration.

They have high single target damage with skills like find their weakness.

kazjun · Mar 08, 2011, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Are they underrated? I know that if I bring a para, then it's leadership and command. And if I don't bring a para, I can usually slot in GFTEs or fallback somewhere else. Or envy if spirits are around.

Wouldn't touch motivation though, unless I'm running like paraway with like 3+ paras or something. Doesn't really bring much considering it takes up a hero slot.

Dzjudz · Mar 08, 2011, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Spirits + Anthem of Envy + Anthem of Disruption

Minions + "Go for the Eyes!" + "Fall Back!"

Party members + "Stand Your Ground!" + "Fall Back!" (+ Hexbreaker Aria)

Great booster and supporter.

Uriel_Wolfblood · Mar 08, 2011, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Can someone link or post the template code for some of these para hero builds you are talking about? I'd love to see some since my paras are gathering dust rapidly and I'd like to get some use out of them. PVX only has one hero build and its nothing like what has been stated here.

Especially interested in volley para build for Thackery.

Also, does anthem of envy/disruption not work on minions? Or is it just better suited for spirits?

FoxBat · Mar 08, 2011, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Soldier's Fury
Volley
GftE
Envy
SYG
Fall Back!
Disruption
Optionals (Never Surrender, Dshot, can't touch this, signet of return)

12+2+1 command, 9 marks, 9+1 leadership

I mostly prefer volley over barrage because the AI will spam the former and not the latter.

Dzjudz · Mar 08, 2011, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uriel_Wolfblood

Can someone link or post the template code for some of these para hero builds you are talking about? I'd love to see some since my paras are gathering dust rapidly and I'd like to get some use out of them. PVX only has one hero build and its nothing like what has been stated here.

I use the one in here.

Quote:

Also, does anthem of envy/disruption not work on minions? Or is it just better suited for spirits?

Those anthems trigger on attack skills. Minions don't use attack skills, just regular attacks. Spirits do, however. Reference: Spirits, under Spirit Properties.

LifeInfusion · Mar 08, 2011, 02:33 AM // 02:33

I don't pump Leadership to 12 (I leave it at 8 or 10: 11+1 Spear, 12+1 Command, 6+1+1 Leadership or 12+1+1 Command, 9+1 Spear, 9+1 Leadership), but that's personal preference.

P/W
"Go for the eyes!"
Vicious Attack
Anthem of Envy
"Stand Your Ground!"
"Fall Back!"
Wild Throw (Stance removal) / Blazing Spear
Soldier's Fury
"For Great Justice"

or
P/Mo or P/Me (higher Leadership)
"Go for the eyes!"
Vicious Attack
Anthem of Envy
"Stand Your Ground!"
"Fall Back!"
Aggressive Refrain
Empathic Removal [Elite]/Expel Hexes [Elite]/Defensive Anthem [Elite]/Incoming! [Elite]
Signet of Return

Before Watch Yourself / Shields Up was nerfed I ran:
P/W
12 Tactics, 11+1 Spear, 6+1+1 Leadership

Soldier's Fury [Elite]
Spear of Lightning
"Watch Yourself!"
Wild Throw
"Shields Up!"
Protector's Defense (unlike melee, it won't move while attacking)
"For Great Justice!"
Signet of Return

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Fall back and Anthem of Envy are great reasons to bring a command paragon, but SYG is pretty much crap and GftE isn't that amazing because the chance of +41% damage only affects the armor-proportional damage anyway (which I'm sure we all know is dead small in HM PvE). Biggest reason IMO to choose paragon is simply because they have usable IAS. Any non-barrage builds require IAS.

Re: GFTE ...but minions without OoU (assuming it's a hero MM) all get that buff. Even if it's small it adds up... (horror and fiend damage is ~50ish max base damage although for minions it's about ~20) Against 120 armor with no cracked armor you'll be doing 1.4x what is normally 0.3536x listed (~18) so it's about +7, and that's not accounting for increasing the overall damage range from 20 minimum damage (so up to 2*1.4=2.8x damage). +7 x11=+77... I usually don't dip below 5 minions unless it's a long walk so it's a minimum +30... against 80 armor casters it's more like +14x11=+154.

SYG is -30% damage, unless you are bringing Save Yourselves! (which I can't because I only play caster, I stopped playing warrior in '07). Only Earth Eles and Dervishes have self-armor buffs (i.e. Vow of Piety, Avatar of Balthazar) worth noting, the +10 from Protective was Kaolai isn't more than +20.

Dzjudz · Mar 08, 2011, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I don't pump Leadership to 12 (I leave it at 8 or 10: 11+1 Spear, 12+1 Command, 6+1+1 Leadership or 12+1+1 Command, 9+1 Spear, 9+1 Leadership), but that's personal preference.

Hmm, yeah, those attributes are still from the old Searing Flames support, I should change them now there's no Glowing Signet and stuff I think, thanks for noticing

.

Chthon · Mar 08, 2011, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Soldier's Fury
Volley
GftE
Envy
SYG
Fall Back!
Disruption
Optionals (Never Surrender, Dshot, can't touch this, signet of return)

12+2+1 command, 9 marks, 9+1 leadership

I mostly prefer volley over barrage because the AI will spam the latter and not the former.

Wait. What? You prefer volley over barrage because the AI will spam barrage, but not volley? Did you maybe mean that the other way around?

Kunder · Mar 08, 2011, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Can't really use a pet, which means no 4-pet Enranged Lunge pain-trains. That makes me sad

Fall back and Anthem of Envy are great reasons to bring a command paragon, but SYG is pretty much crap and GftE isn't that amazing because the chance of +41% damage only affects the armor-proportional damage anyway (which I'm sure we all know is dead small in HM PvE). Biggest reason IMO to choose paragon is simply because they have usable IAS. Any non-barrage builds require IAS.

Daesu · Mar 08, 2011, 03:51 AM // 03:51

I agree that Command Paragons tend to be underrated. Just look at the popular hero builds like Spirit way and MM. Rits and MM are in almost all the proposed builds.

Anthem of Envy, Disruption, Weariness, Crippling all synergize with spirit attacks, besides your paragon attacks. GFTE boosts damage from minions and Fall back heals them as you run from mob to mob, besides making them all run faster.