Curse

NerfHerder · Jan 09, 2011, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

The nec/mo builds up minions. This role can be substituted by something (ideas some1? maybe an e/mo bonder ?) if there are no corpses available. Panic mesmer adds in more defense, coupled with big AoE hits and hex removal for energy management. Fall back because I'm always bored of running and it helps in VQing long areas and stuff.

the ineptitude mesmer... Idk if I should run Ineptitude for the blind or E-surge + mistrust+ nukes and yk the deal. Regular domination Nukes. I'd like to hear opinions on this :P

In areas w/o exploitable corpses, especially undead, you can add an ROJ monk with Judges Insight and Strength of Honor instead of an MM. Micro JI on yourself, they like to put it on themselves. Use Mesmer secondary for E-mngmt.

I prefer Domination/E-Surge over Ineptitude. Be wary of Hex Eater Signet. Your the frontline and most prone to hexes. Your squishy Mesmers will break formation to unhex you putting themselves in danger and not benefit from the mutliple hex removals. Powerdrain or other inspiration skills can be used for more effective E-mngmt.

I noticed you dont have Critical Agility on your Sin. I would add that, its practically a free perma 33% IAS and 20+ Armor. You can still use WotA for increased crits, if you are unsure of what elite to use, or if your in a disenchant heavy area to have a back up IAS. Dagger Spamming is so OP your elite is the most flexable part of the build!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Care

everyone's posting the same builds....with only 2-3 different skills...

That's really depressing ppl....

Meta is what Meta does. Its not very original, but I cant blame anyone for using the most optimal and tested builds in the game. What would you suggest?

I Perma Mobs · Jan 09, 2011, 05:41 PM // 17:41

I came to the conclusion that I do need Inept. Since I'm faced with an awkward situation: huge ammounts of support yet no healing. only 2 healers 1 of them is only mix.

About critical agility: Yes, I used to run with it. however, the difference between 19% and 33% attack speed isn't worth it, nor the 20% armor. I prefer to have finish him (sounds dumb right?) to be able to kill stuff much faster. WoTA is a form of skill saving: it does what 2 skills do in 1. This way I can pump out my single target damage.
You see, there's a context to why i want single target damage
Splinter weapon = 265 damage on every 3 adjacent foes.
MoP (on 5 splinter hits)= 200 damage on all adjacent foes.
Ancestors rage= 110 damage
Some more random aoe nuke like dessecrate, ss, inept, wandering eye, etc etc etc will add up more 100 damage.

this means everything around me will take 600 damage. However, the foe himself, only takes round 100-200 damage. For Icy Veins and putrid bile to trigger and be a clean up skill, I need single target damage. Without asuran scan, I do round 100-150 damage myself depending on armor, and FH will do +180 damage (max norn). This will be usually enough to kill the target

basically the whole team setup is a huge aoe spike.

Thats why i need skill slot compressment. Even though 20 armor helps, when I rush into the mob, I dont rush on my daggers ^^ I run on my shield set and with the experience I have, it'll always be with the correct +10 al versus X shield. My armor also gives me +10 al vs blunt and physical damage. On average, I'll have 86 armor versus elemental damage (shield) and against physical it can depend. can go from 86 to 106

That should be enough. The "Big Hits" will be diminished by prot spirit anyhow.

On to RoJ. I personally like RoJ alot and the idea of making my own damage holy damage sounds awesome for those areas, cause itll buff the single target damage.
However... I am concerned about the healing potential of the build. Maybe some mo/me smiter/healer hybrid? reversal of damage and both smites? attribute spreading is going to be complicated though.

edit: oh, I forgot this: on some recent update (can't remember when... check gw page :P) hex eater signet AI usage got "buffed". Heros will now be more careful about using hex eater signet and should only use it on nearby targets. this will mean they will use it on the whole "caster community" and will also get more energy :P It's incredibly effective against LC and suffering

Daesu · Jan 09, 2011, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

the ineptitude mesmer... Idk if I should run Ineptitude for the blind or E-surge + mistrust+ nukes and yk the deal. Regular domination Nukes. I'd like to hear opinions on this :P (note, the player build doesn't have to be an assassin. Nearly everything works, watch out if u wanna bring splinter weapon on SoS rit though).

I use a UA smiter instead. With Smiter's Boon, your smite skills double up as heals that means you dont need dedicated healers and can afford to bring more offensive skills.

You should also bring Strength of Honor for melee. You can also put 5 points to Blood for Dark Fury to boost your SY, on your SS necro, but that is optional.

I Perma Mobs · Jan 09, 2011, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Ua smiter.... that sounds sick. Ping build? :P

Daesu · Jan 09, 2011, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

Ua smiter.... that sounds sick. Ping build? :P

If you dont like UA, you can use RoJ instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

The only thing that concerns me is the fact that I only have 2 healers and 1 of them is hybrid. I guess I'll have to trust the shutdown and damage mitigation abilities of the whole team.

My melee team has 0 dedicated healers but I bring other support skills like Blood Bond, Dwayna's Sorrow, and Smiter's Boon which you lack and I have an ER.

Here is my team build for my warrior, which is also on this thread:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=309

NerfHerder · Jan 09, 2011, 10:46 PM // 22:46

About Critical Agility vs WotA,

25% and 33% IAS means roughly 33% and 50% increase in damage respectively. So you will have >20% less damage with 19% vs 33%. You will also have a lower chance of a double strike.

The 20+ armor applies to all damage types. Your 10 AR vs X shield + the 8 armor from the shiled itself only adds up to 18 AR and unless your only facing one foe will most likely not cover all your damage. And once you switch weapons you will not have that armor that you would with CA. Not to mention its a whole lot easier than swapping weapons, giving you the opportunity to concentrate on DPS and micro your heros(if thats your thing).

Also, Hex Eater Signet only effects Adjacent foes, heros will however target Nearby foes. Effectively mismanaging the skill. Specially if they run up to you(tank) and try to dehex you that way.

And regarding your Smite PvX wiki has a good write up about it. If you have SoH and JI on the same monk, Tease might be a good option with Powerdrain instead of Castigation Signet. RoJ would be too much energy for both. The other option would be to put SoH on someone else.

ensoriki · Jan 10, 2011, 12:04 PM // 12:04

I'll try different crap

Two death blossom assassins with myself equating to 3 death blossom assassins
Panic mesmer
A Tease healing mesmer.
Necro healer
Monk

O_O?

If you have 7 might as well experiment.
I wonder about a healing mesmer using tease for E-management >.>

I may try a team with 3 dervishes, 2 sins... and 2 healers of sort.

Lets see some shouts affect minions if I understood that whole ally pve thing.
Triple paragons 2 necro's with minions and lets just see how that goes...
With chants I can have paragons making minions interrupt & the like so it sounds good to me.

2 paragons with 2 Barrage rangers to do some Crippling Anthem abuse.

Gimmicky crap all day son, forget the cookie cutter.

Xenomortis · Jan 10, 2011, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

I came to the conclusion that I do need Inept. Since I'm faced with an awkward situation: huge ammounts of support yet no healing. only 2 healers 1 of them is only mix.

You have:
One dedicated healer that does nothing else.
Prot Spirit.
Aegis.
Minions.
2 spirit spammers.
Panic.
Some more heals.
Save Yourselves.

I don't take that much on my H/H setups.

Also, take Earthbind off the SoGM Rit - you don't have any knockdowns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

This way I can pump out my single target damage.
You see, there's a context to why i want single target damage

Give Strength of Honor to a hero and have him maintain it on you.

The benefit of this over Finish Him is that you facilitate killing the target faster and you'll push out more AoE damage since the damage is coming from your attacks, not from a powerful shout spike.
And take Critical Eye. And I suppose you might as well take some more damage over Critical Strikes (which is weaker than Death Blossom, so you don't want to use that) - By Ural's Hammer works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

25% and 33% IAS means roughly 33% and 50% increase in damage respectively. So you will have >20% less damage with 19% vs 33%. You will also have a lower chance of a double strike.

WotA is brought for the Crit Rate boost first and IAS second. Double-striking doesn't come into it - you have equal chances with both on auto-attacks (there's no reason to switch around runes and specs).
Critical Strikes and Critical Eye aren't quite enough to keep up constant dagger spam in Hard Mode (where your crit rate plummets versus level 28-30 enemies and you're using Asuran Scan on every enemy) - the massive boost from Way of the Assassin alleviates this and the IAS just means you don't really lose anything from taking it as your elite.

I Perma Mobs · Jan 10, 2011, 03:34 PM // 15:34

answering peoples answers:
What i meant with Ua sounds sick is a good thing! Sorry, it's an expression. I would veru much like to see the build for what i have in my mind, it'll mean that the hero will have smiting prayer skills that will heal strong, will have the best rez possible and will do holy damage.

Critical agility: Yes, That basic damage calculation is correct, having 2 assumptions- 1, that the target is standing and taking damage, instead of runing. and second, that the DPS from an assassin comes from his bare dagger attacks. It doesn't. The vast majority of the damage on an assassin comes from the dagger attack skills. These take just as long to recharge with or without IAS. Besides, if you did indeed take CA, there would be nothing to put in WoTA's place, so... (don't come with moebius at me, not gonna work).
About the 20 armor from CA... I'd rather bring FH and 33% chance for critical strike than 20 armor :P reasons to that have already been explained. Also, CA can easily be striped, since it'll always be the first enchantment you have on yourself. That's the second reason why I don't like to bring it :P I found myself attacking too many times without IAS.

hex eater signet: you clearly misunderstood. read my answer again and think about the positioning of your heros when your in battle. If after that you still have questions, post/pm me and I'll answer you.

I did say I'd take earthbind off :P Big mistake bringing it without kds.
Critical Strikes is energy management. (energy on a sin? wut? yeah. Makes me able to spike on fox fangs and deaths blossom recharge, without stoping to build energy atfer 2 spikes)

The problem with strength of honor is attribute spreading. I can't put it in any of the heros currently. Against non-fleshy foes, when I'm not taking JB, yes, I will take it. But that should only be a small ammount of the time :P
Why critical eye? It's one of the most useless skills in the game to put on an assassin with daggers tbh. I alrdy have WoTA anyhow.

So in the end it's the question of BuH! or FH!. Exactly same question I asked myself a few weeks ago, while working on my sin build. BUH! has a 30 seconds recharge, only lasting 10 seconds. FH has a 15 seconds recharge. FH does 180 damage, and cracked armor. It also allows me to /kill any foe that might not have died from the spike without having to do anything else than hit tab.
BUH is more uncertain, depends if I get blinded bla bla bla. It probably does more damage at the time, but this is halved due to the recharge (DPS :P). I spose you could say BUH will be charged whenever I go INTO a mob, but in the middle of the fight I won't be able to get a second BUH in unless facing really awkward situations where there are alot of healers (like in forgewights level).
hell, I might consider bringing EBSoH or of wisdom. There really aren't any perfect solutions here. Which is why I love this build: It gives me adaptability. I could bring PI for aoe bosses, etc etc. hell, I can even bring technobabble for daze (not bad idea tbh...)- Or whirlwind attack to create a mini manly spike :P Splinter weapon+MoP exploding on every1 at the same time must be fun XD. List doesn't end.

What you said about WoTA is exactly the point :P Energy management IS an issue, so thats why i bring WoTA + critical strikes, cause eye+critical strikes is not quite enough

And this became yet another huge reply :S

AndrewSX · Jan 10, 2011, 06:50 PM // 18:50

I haven't read with attention the whole thread, so maybe someone suggest this before...
However, what do you think about Stolen Speed as elite of one of the two mesmer that everyone put in the team?
At 12 Fast Casting it lasts 8 sec, and with the recharge boost(36% of 12sec, so around 4 sec) it can be recasted even before it expires.
Enemies hexed with it cast half of the spells, that is half of damage for eles or half of healing for monks. And double the amount of spell that you can cast on these enemies, that can mean the double of damage.
Damage reduction, less healing and buff for your party: why do not take it(dropping arcane conudrum for an interruption)?
Personally, i loved gwen when lighting orb, chain lighting and similar powerful but slow-casting ele stuff casted only in 1 sec....

I Perma Mobs · Jan 10, 2011, 07:27 PM // 19:27

nice idea. but double casting speed doesn't mean double damage :P You have to take into consideration the recharge and the energy spent to cast the spells. It should still be a slight buff though. I do, however, find that the majority of damage nowadays doesnt come from direct damage (like eles). it comes from minions, rit's spirits (not spells) and PBAoE like splinter and AR.

But yeah, it's an interesting choice

AndrewSX · Jan 10, 2011, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Yeah, I was thinking about it assuming a continuos overflow of direct damage, cause I'm an ele and sometimes I TRY to be a damage dealer....(/sigh) and on these rare occasions the AP build allows to spam almost regardless of energy and recharge:P
However the half of spell from some bunched HM foes is still a good deal for an elite slot imo. And it could also support any form of interruption by players that like me sucks at it when playing a mez or a ranger....
And it's quite funny to discover some awesome builds out of the over-used meta (as someone said above)... Change a bit from the couple Panic + Ineptitude for example.

Roen · Jan 10, 2011, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Care

everyone's posting the same builds....with only 2-3 different skills...

That's really depressing ppl....

Well I've created a "Crazy Ranger Way" but there's only 3 ranger heroes so it's a little tough to make 8 ranger team hero builds.

Tyris Requiem · Jan 10, 2011, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Overpowered ones....

Like my favoured dual smite setup to faceroll my way through shit. Not that I really need too, since I already finished everything.

A/W SY Dagger Spammer
Mo/Me RoJ Smiter
Mo/Me RoJ Smiter
Me/Mo Panic with prot
Rt/Mo SoS with prot
N/Mo Dwaynas Sorrow MM
N/Rt SoLS Heal
Rt/Me Tease/Energy Drain Resto

NerfHerder · Jan 11, 2011, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

WotA is brought for the Crit Rate boost first and IAS second. Double-striking doesn't come into it - you have equal chances with both on auto-attacks (there's no reason to switch around runes and specs).
Critical Strikes and Critical Eye aren't quite enough to keep up constant dagger spam in Hard Mode (where your crit rate plummets versus level 28-30 enemies and you're using Asuran Scan on every enemy) - the massive boost from Way of the Assassin alleviates this and the IAS just means you don't really lose anything from taking it as your elite.

I know thats what I was trying to tell Perma, I was saying to bring Critical Agilty instead of finish him AND also bring WotA. WotA would only be for crits and a backup IAS if CA gets stripped. That way he would have CA, SY!, and Asuran Scan, with plenty of crit potential to spam attacks and AS. I would take Critical Eye too. I could be wrong, maybe Critical Agility sucks on an Assassin.

I mentioned double strikes, because you will have a higher probability with a33% IAS than a 19%(WotA) within the same amount of time. Same is true of a Critical Strike, which is also added damage and energy.

But whatevs, sounds like he doesnt like either of our ideas.

Xenomortis · Jan 11, 2011, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

The problem with strength of honor is attribute spreading. I can't put it in any of the heros currently. Against non-fleshy foes, when I'm not taking JB, yes, I will take it. But that should only be a small ammount of the time :P

The SoS Rit can take it easily. Flesh of My Flesh is a completely expendable slot and lower Spawning Power isn't an issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

Why critical eye? It's one of the most useless skills in the game to put on an assassin with daggers tbh. I alrdy have WoTA anyhow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs

What you said about WoTA is exactly the point :P Energy management IS an issue, so thats why i bring WoTA + critical strikes, cause eye+critical strikes is not quite enough

Read those two quotes very carefully.

Critical Strikes is less damage than Death Blossom and every time you press the CS button you're not pressing the DB button. So you don't want to run Critical Strikes if you can avoid it.
Fortunatly Critical Eye with WotA is sufficient.

Why Critical Eye? It's a crit boost and an extra energy boost on your crits. With CE and a Zealous Mod you'll be gaining 5e from every critical hit.

I Hate Chips · Jan 11, 2011, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Why Critical Eye? It's a crit boost and an extra energy boost on your crits. With CE and a Zealous Mod you'll be gaining 5e from every critical hit.

/signed WoTa + Critical Eye + Zealous Daggers, should give u sufficient energy.

I Perma Mobs · Jan 11, 2011, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs View Post
The problem with strength of honor is attribute spreading. I can't put it in any of the heros currently. Against non-fleshy foes, when I'm not taking JB, yes, I will take it. But that should only be a small ammount of the time :P
The SoS Rit can take it easily. Flesh of My Flesh is a completely expendable slot and lower Spawning Power isn't an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs View Post
Why critical eye? It's one of the most useless skills in the game to put on an assassin with daggers tbh. I alrdy have WoTA anyhow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by I Perma Mobs View Post
What you said about WoTA is exactly the point :P Energy management IS an issue, so thats why i bring WoTA + critical strikes, cause eye+critical strikes is not quite enough
Read those two quotes very carefully.

Critical Strikes is less damage than Death Blossom and every time you press the CS button you're not pressing the DB button. So you don't want to run Critical Strikes if you can avoid it.
Fortunatly Critical Eye with WotA is sufficient.

Why Critical Eye? It's a crit boost and an extra energy boost on your crits. With CE and a Zealous Mod you'll be gaining 5e from every critical hit.

awesome explanation

firstly, yes, the SoS does have the place to fit it in. Thanks

And yeah, CE over Critical strikes should work. I'm gonna do some trials for energy management, but it should be fine. It's a small(but good. i mean, it's only positive right?) increase in damage.

At Nerfherder: Did you now understand why on that setup FH> CA? :P
CA would only be adding a 14% speed boost and 20 armor, which are easily stripped. Anyhow, I get the feeling you understood my reasoning and I understood yours too.

Thanks for the feedback guys

loopysnoopy · Jan 12, 2011, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Well here go's my try for the 7 hero thing not the best set up but I have used these heroes skill bars. They work but can be slow but for me it has never been about speed

There is plenty of damage mitigation along with plenty of damage paragons seem to work better in pairs.

Klance · Jan 12, 2011, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Personally i prefer spirit siphon on the SoS rit for energy management.

I question the effectiveness of the communing/resto rit which has zero energy management skills.

Also the nec has split attributes 4 ways, it might be more efficient to ditch the healing.

Stand your ground! might be more efficient on the first para then ToF+AoF, especially since you lack a constant source of burning.