Curse

jot. · Dec 07, 2010, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Your Monk has only one spell over 5e, aegis for 10e. GoLE is wasted energy management, since the hero won't even know to use it with Aegis, wasting it on 5e skills. This nets you 5e energy every 30 sec if he casts glyph on recharge. It's a pretty bad energy management skill on monk heroes (on players it's much better). I don't really see why you have prot on the monk bar, you already have 2 aegis in the party. I'd change it to 8 inspiration and put in 2 energy management skills from that (p-drain, leech signet, wnwn, etc)

Thanks for the feedback.

The thought behind putting prot on the monk bar was to abuse UA, Dismiss and the buttload of enchantments, so I figured I might as well go for an almost 30s Aegis chain before enchantment mods. I'm not a fan of the typical inspiration e-management skills on a monk hero bar because I'd rather have them set to avoid combot as opposed to guard, so they can actually kite damage (PvP nitpicking, really). Do you think the monk would be fine on energy with just TPIY alone? I'm considering giving it some personal prot (Conviction, Armor of Sanctity). If anything I suppose I could replace Defile with BloodRit on the Mesmer as well.

EDIT: I suppose I could also have it go Mo/Rt with another copy of SW and Spirit Siphon, hmm. Do heroes use Vigorous Spirit well? Theorycrafting is fun.

Bandwagon · Dec 07, 2010, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Probably gunna run:

-Minion Bomber with Prot Split
-SoS Channel with a Resto Split
-Panic mesmer (since its so OP even when a hero uses it)
-N/Rt Healer - how original
-N/X - based on the area, may go curses, or Dwayna's Sorrow, or w.e
-Rt ST Spirit Pooper, will either poop out Union/Shelter or Dissonance/Disenchantment/Pain/yada yada for a quasi spiritway team.
-Paragon with incoming and micro'd Fall Back! - probably some other stuff to, but the IMS is why its there :P

This is of course assuming the melee NPC update isn't terribad, and the derv skill update doesn't yield something incredibly juicy (to the extent of Panic)

JimmyTyme · Dec 07, 2010, 07:01 AM // 07:01

personally I was thinking of discordway w/ spiritway mixed in with a random panic mes (or 2 situationally dependant) and then an open slot for like a CHARGE!!!!! warrior to speed up the group cuz 90% of my time as it stands is spent walking so why not reduce that by 33% lol

PAPA AMERICANO!

Klance · Dec 07, 2010, 10:14 AM // 10:14

@jot.

I'm pretty sure even with OoB that mesmer will run dry pretty fast.

Roen · Dec 07, 2010, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Given my main is a female, I'm going to create an 8-woman team just because. Only problem is I just realized there's no female Ele heroes. Who's gonna be my ER protter?

dansamy · Dec 07, 2010, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roen

Given my main is a female, I'm going to create an 8-woman team just because. Only problem is I just realized there's no female Ele heroes. Who's gonna be my ER protter?

Sousuke is gay, so he's just one of the girls really.

Xenomortis · Dec 07, 2010, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by jot.

Here's what I've put together, criticism/feedback welcome:
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2237/7heroteam20.png

The player bar is going to be lackluster, but Rangers have that problem so there's not much you can do about that.

I don't agree with taking two Paras - one is fine but two won't give enough of a return, especially when they have near identical builds. I don't like The Power is Yours either - you have no Echos (apart from AR) for it to trigger and GFTE covers that role anyway. Expel Hexes is of questionable value, but there's not much else to take.

Why is your Orders hero a Mes? Fast Casting gives little benefit - Orders is out sooner but your energy is killed quickly. Change to Nec primary, pump SR and consider dropping OoB - certainly I recommend Cultist's Fervor over it.
I'm not sure making it a hybrid is a good idea, but it should work. Defile Defenses seems wasteful - Mark of Pain is better. Enfeebling Blood and Reckless Haste is overkill, especially with Aegis - pick your favourite.
I'm not convinced that Dark Fury is worthwhile, but meh. An enchantment removal may not go amiss.

Possibly cut Aegis and definitely Draw from your Rit hero. Consider Siphon over Essence Strike, but it's not too important. Replace Rebirth with DPS or Flesh.
SoS Rit heroes are a good template on which to put a couple of heals.

I say replace Dwayna's Sorrow for BotM on your MM - you have enough healing as is. Also consider a res over Remove Hex since you have Expel.

I don't like N/Rt healers. Certainly having MBAS and Foul Feast seems silly (even more so if you keep Draw Conditions on the Rit).
Weapon of Warding is questionable - it's not that much healing and the block is redundant and hero use of weapon spells is odd. Consider Rejuvenation and possibly Life Transfer or Recovery. The list of elites is rather pathetic too - might as well stick with XW since heroes don't tend to use Spirit Light Weapon on casters.

A couple of things on the monk hero:
UA is fine with DH and HD. However Patient is a bad choice. As a heal, Patient Spirit is often wasted as another hero is liable to heal the target as well - a monk cannot afford such a waste. DKiss is ok, but it lacks a reliable punch (not too bad with UA though).
Consider taking Gift of Health - it heals for a lot with UA. The downside is this makes other Healing Prayers skills questionable.
Dismiss Condition is fine. Aegis and GoLE are iffy - as mentioned GoLE is largely wasted and Aegis is a bit heavy on a UA bar. What to slot instead though, I'm not sure, but Inspiration stuff would work.

A few other things:
Consider replacing one of the Paras with a Communing Rit hero or a Panic/PI Mes.
The Orders Nec can serve as a platform for Prots if you cut those from other areas.

Haggis of Doom · Dec 07, 2010, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Made this one, please tear it down

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2...rriorteam1.jpg

jot. · Dec 07, 2010, 08:08 PM // 20:08

First off, thanks again for the feedback.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klance

@jot.

I'm pretty sure even with OoB that mesmer will run dry pretty fast.

You think so, even with TPIY? Hmmm. What would you suggest?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The player bar is going to be lackluster, but Rangers have that problem so there's not much you can do about that.

Yeah I know its not optimal and I should be pumping dmg with SoH + a Scythe, but there's just a fun factor when I play this bar. Something along the lines of "omg I super leet sniper pewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpew"

Quote:

I don't agree with taking two Paras - one is fine but two won't give enough of a return, especially when they have near identical builds. I don't like The Power is Yours either - you have no Echos (apart from AR) for it to trigger and GFTE covers that role anyway. Expel Hexes is of questionable value, but there's not much else to take.

The issue here is I want to abuse Orders and physical damage in general, but melee AI sucks. I know they're going to address that, but until then, I'll stick to ranged martial classes. Rangers don't provide much utility compared to Paragons (ironic, considering my main), so I figured Paras were a solid balance between pumping physical dmg (ranged deep wound) and party support. TPIY is just more for my casters so they can get to casting more spells. Expel is there again for utility and like you said, there isn't much else to take.

Quote:

Why is your Orders hero a Mes? Fast Casting gives little benefit - Orders is out sooner but your energy is killed quickly. Change to Nec primary, pump SR and consider dropping OoB - certainly I recommend Cultist's Fervor over it.
I'm not sure making it a hybrid is a good idea, but it should work. Defile Defenses seems wasteful - Mark of Pain is better. Enfeebling Blood and Reckless Haste is overkill, especially with Aegis - pick your favourite.
I'm not convinced that Dark Fury is worthwhile, but meh. An enchantment removal may not go amiss.

The rationale behind Mesmer Orders is precisely so Orders/Barbs comes out faster. I usually run Necro Orders but I find that spending 4s (ignoring aftercast) trying to get OoP and Barbs out a bit too slow for my tastes. Is energy really going to be an issue with OoB+TPIY? I'll admit I haven't tested it and probably should. Defile is there mainly for filler. I'm not too fond of Mark of Pain on heroes (I'd rather not have to micro them every time), how does BloodRit sound in that slot? Enfeebling Blood+Reckless Haste, I just figured I might as well have more defense. What would you suggest in those slots? Dark Fury I think I'll keep, since it lets me pump out SY like a madman. There aren't many enchantments that mobs use that I'd want to strip (maybe Aegis?) and I tend to spike down those targets myself before they get them off anyways (yeye sniper).

Quote:

Possibly cut Aegis and definitely Draw from your Rit hero. Consider Siphon over Essence Strike, but it's not too important. Replace Rebirth with DPS or Flesh.
SoS Rit heroes are a good template on which to put a couple of heals.

The Rit has Aegis/Draw because I really didn't know what else to put on it so I figured more prot/utility, the better. I'm of the opinion that conditions suck (h8u blind), so the more condi removal I have = the happier I am. I usually run Siphon, but I figured I'd try Essence Strike to see if it could manage energy (along with TPIY and a possible BloodRit) while pumping out some extra minor DPS. Rebirth is mainly there for wipe scenarios, since I feel that UA and FoMF are enough for mid-battle resses, and will definitely be micro'd. I had thought about putting some Resto on the bar, but I decided against with because between Blood Bond, Dwayna's Sorrow, and my 2 dedicated backliners, I felt I had enough redbar.

Quote:

I say replace Dwayna's Sorrow for BotM on your MM - you have enough healing as is. Also consider a res over Remove Hex since you have Expel.

Not so sure about BotM, I don't really need to keep my minions up. I just want them to run around to trigger Barbs/SW, bodyblock, and pump Death Novas/SR for the N/Rt. Remove Hex is there just in case Expel is on recharge. I'll consider taking a res if I find it's not that useful, though.

Quote:

I don't like N/Rt healers. Certainly having MBAS and Foul Feast seems silly (even more so if you keep Draw Conditions on the Rit).
Weapon of Warding is questionable - it's not that much healing and the block is redundant and hero use of weapon spells is odd. Consider Rejuvenation and possibly Life Transfer or Recovery. The list of elites is rather pathetic too - might as well stick with XW since heroes don't tend to use Spirit Light Weapon on casters.

I like N/Rts because they can just pump out spells like no tomorrow with SR. Again, I'm of the opinion that the more draws/ffs there are, the less my physicals will be blind/weakness'd, and the more damage we will churn out. With regards to MBAS, it's just another big fat heal. I've found that my heroes tend to use it more to push red bars up than for condition removal. I agree with you on WoW, but there's just not much else to bring, so I figured it'd be a useful preprot to micro if I ever needed it.

Quote:

A couple of things on the monk hero:
UA is fine with DH and HD. However Patient is a bad choice. As a heal, Patient Spirit is often wasted as another hero is liable to heal the target as well - a monk cannot afford such a waste. DKiss is ok, but it lacks a reliable punch (not too bad with UA though).
Consider taking Gift of Health - it heals for a lot with UA. The downside is this makes other Healing Prayers skills questionable.
Dismiss Condition is fine. Aegis and GoLE are iffy - as mentioned GoLE is largely wasted and Aegis is a bit heavy on a UA bar. What to slot instead though, I'm not sure, but Inspiration stuff would work.

I've found PatSpirit to be useful when I've run it. I'll try replacing it with Shield Hands maybe or SoA, to see if it runs any better. DKiss by itself isn't that great, but consider UA and the absolute buttload of party/pseudo-party enchantments (OoP, DF, Aegis, DwaySorrow), the blue numbers tend to get big. Aegis is mainly filler, so I decided I might as well go for the gusto and try to get a near full 30s Aegis Chain. Probably overkill, but I'll give it a go. GoLE again is filler, and I'll agree is a bit wasted on this bar. However, I'm not a fan of inspiration stuff on my backline, as I'd have to set the hero to Guard rather than Avoid Combat in order for them to use the skills properly, meaning they spend more time rupting flare and wanding things rather than kiting and avoiding damage. Just a pet peeve I picked up from my PvP experience, haha. Do you think between TPIY/BloodRit/SY/the buttloads of midline defense, that the monk's energy would be solid enough to allow running some personal prot (Conviction, Vow of Piety)? Also, would Mo/Rt with Spirit Siphon and another copy of SW work (I would probably have to drop Prot entirely)?

Quote:

A few other things:
Consider replacing one of the Paras with a Communing Rit hero or a Panic/PI Mes.
The Orders Nec can serve as a platform for Prots if you cut those from other areas.

I'm not a fan of ST or SoGM Rits because they simply take too much time to poop out spirits. I'm more a fan of just diving into mobs (call me Kilroy), rather than having to micro spirits beforehand, and I've found that when I do go diving, the mob is already dead or mostly dead by the time most of the spirits are up. As for Panic/PI, I've found that heroes don't tend to target big mobs when using those elites, and is often wasted without heavy micro. I've run a traditional Necro Orders with Prot support and Smite support and I've found that they don't spend enough time pumping out Orders as I'd like, so I figured moving the support to another character to let the Orders hero focus.

Phew, that was a long one. Thanks again for the criticism, some good points were made. Looking forward to what else all of you have to say.

NerfHerder · Dec 07, 2010, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by jot.

Here's what I've put together, criticism/feedback welcome:

The Paragon heros. I don't believe they are as bad as some people suggest. However, you may want to reconsider how your using them. I suggest using one Motigon and one Command Paragon. They have a synergy that your entire party can benefit from. There is a pretty good discussion going on about using 2 paragon heros here. Finale of restoration is an awesome heal if you have shouts/chants ending all the time. And, you can still easily put expel hexes or empathic removal as thier elites. "TPiY!" is kind of weak for your purposes. It only yields 1 energy per use.

I would use an ER Ele or Necro for your orders. If you want to keep Dark Fury, I suggest going ER to compensate for the health loss and energy. Otherwise, A Cultist's Fervor or OoV Necro will do just as well. And the necro can more easily put points into Curses for even more physical support.

Consider speccing your SoS Rt for a Hybrid Resto. In my experience a good SoS/Resto build can heal on par with a N/Rt. Even with half the skills, the SoS/Resto still has the 3 core skills MBaS, Spirit Light, PwK. Use Siphon Spirits for energy. Combined with your UA healer, motigon, and MM prot you should have enough healing. This frees your N/Rt for more utility, damage, support, or another hero altogether.

I would also consider putting at least Power Drain on your monk for energy management. WnWn, Leech Signet, Drain Enchantment, and even Channeling work well too. Power Drain and Leech Signet are two fold, they give you energy and interrupt spells. The heros reflexes are the best part about them. I would use it.

Overall, your team build will probably run pretty good just the way it is. I hope this helps you fine tweak your build even further. Good Luck and Happy Hunting!

photoscanner · Dec 08, 2010, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Something along the lines of :

Building a team is somewhat new, so I shamelessly took synergistic (sp?) builds and pasted them together. Comments are definitely welcome. Help me be better

Edit: Credits to Khomet/Sab/Whoever I took these from :P

Lanier · Dec 08, 2010, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by photoscanner

Something along the lines of :

Building a team is somewhat new, so I shamelessly took synergistic (sp?) builds and pasted them together. Comments are definitely welcome. Help me be better

Edit: Credits to Khomet/Sab/Whoever I took these from :P

The paragon bars look kinda... i dont know... wierd? I can't really think of any reason why you would want to bring Panic on a paragon rather than just taking a mesmer with panic instead. Likewise, if you want to use AoE arrow builds, use a barrage or incendiary arrows ranger. If you do want to keep two paragons in the build, then I strongly suggest a complete rebuilding of there builds. I would go 1 paragon as command and the other as motivation. Give them both a couple of spear attacks (blazing, spear of lightning, vicious attack, merciless, etc.). On the command hero, I would either use an elite spear attack or Defensive Anthem, which would help your 5 casters immensely. Gfte, anthem of weariness, anthem of envy, and anthem of flame are all possiblities, and dont forget to bring Aggresive Refrain (heroes will maintain it with anthem of flame). These shouts and chants will synergize well with finale of restoration and purifying finale, which you can bring on the motivation paragon. As the motivationgon's elite, TPiY is probably the best possibility, so that you can get more triggers on the echos (if you go this route, it might be nice to add bladeturn refrain to the command paragon). Oh, and dont forget aggresive refrain. You can't have an effective physical if they dont have an IAS.

4th, 5th, and 6th builds are just standard spiritway (with the addition of some blood magic spells it seems), and seems good to me. 7th seems pretty ordinary, and fine, to me as well. As for an 8th build... well, I don know if the single healer can keep up your party, even with an imbagon as the player character and a couple of prots on the mm. I would drop splinter + rip (you already have a copy of splinter and an enchantment removal anyway, and you dont really need multiple with only 3 physicals). Replace these (and the channeling attribute points) with some restoration heals. Possibly replace Spiteful with another copy of Xinrai's... though neither seems particularly useful to be honest.

Anyway, there's my 2 cents.

Life Bringing · Dec 08, 2010, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Got bored and came up with this.

Barrage paragons are so hawt. 2 copies of splinter, 2 copies of barrage, 2 copies of envy for 11 triggers per cast :D(9 spirits+2 paras).

Sankt Hallvard · Dec 08, 2010, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Barrage paragons are so hawt. 2 copies of splinter, 2 copies of barrage, 2 copies of envy for 11 triggers per cast

(9 spirits+2 paras).

So they start every fight with using 25e and 2 sec cast? Or are you relying on successful chaining of fall back?

jot. · Dec 08, 2010, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

The Paragon heros. I don't believe they are as bad as some people suggest. However, you may want to reconsider how your using them. I suggest using one Motigon and one Command Paragon. They have a synergy that your entire party can benefit from. There is a pretty good discussion going on about using 2 paragon heros here. Finale of restoration is an awesome heal if you have shouts/chants ending all the time. And, you can still easily put expel hexes or empathic removal as thier elites. "TPiY!" is kind of weak for your purposes. It only yields 1 energy per use.

I would use an ER Ele or Necro for your orders. If you want to keep Dark Fury, I suggest going ER to compensate for the health loss and energy. Otherwise, A Cultist's Fervor or OoV Necro will do just as well. And the necro can more easily put points into Curses for even more physical support.

Consider speccing your SoS Rt for a Hybrid Resto. In my experience a good SoS/Resto build can heal on par with a N/Rt. Even with half the skills, the SoS/Resto still has the 3 core skills MBaS, Spirit Light, PwK. Use Siphon Spirits for energy. Combined with your UA healer, motigon, and MM prot you should have enough healing. This frees your N/Rt for more utility, damage, support, or another hero altogether.

I would also consider putting at least Power Drain on your monk for energy management. WnWn, Leech Signet, Drain Enchantment, and even Channeling work well too. Power Drain and Leech Signet are two fold, they give you energy and interrupt spells. The heros reflexes are the best part about them. I would use it.

Overall, your team build will probably run pretty good just the way it is. I hope this helps you fine tweak your build even further. Good Luck and Happy Hunting!

Okay, after considering what Nerf & everyone else had said, I've come up with this:

Dropped the N/Rt, threw some Resto onto the SoS, gave the Orders & Monk some more energy management. I decided on a D/P to replace the N/Rt for more ranged physical dmg as well as Imbue/FB/Envy support. As for Aegis on the Paragon, between TPIY and GFTE, I think it'll be fine on energy.

Life Bringing · Dec 08, 2010, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

So they start every fight with using 25e and 2 sec cast? Or are you relying on successful chaining of fall back?

if you disable both fbs on zone and micro each one once(second after first ends), you'll have successful chaining. If you cba with that, it's not like microing it every 10 seconds is hard.

NerfHerder · Dec 08, 2010, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by jot.

/snip

I'm still not sure your Orders Mesmer is your best bet. I see where your going but, your main objective is to keep OoP up at all times. OoP does not have a recharge, so any time you save on cast doesnt help much. Meanwhile you have 3 life sacrificing skills, making it an auto target for foes in a heartbeat. Take just you and your Orders Mesmer to master of damage or an explorable area and fight some foes for a while. Then take a Necro Orders or ER Orders and test it the same way. You might be surprised at the results. Only problem with the cultists fervor Necro is that your H/H will waste valuable energy removing the bleeding. If I could find a way past that , I like the Necro better. Thats why if adrenaline isnt a big issue I use this. Dont forget the enchantment mods

@Life Bringer and Photoscan

Paragons with bows? I understand your trying to get a physical AoE. But, wouldnt a Spear chucker and a couple copies of splinter weapon be better? Spears have a better DPS than pretty much any bow. And, I never liked the way heros use Barrage. They dont prioritize it well. They pretty much attack whatever they want. Typically, the closest melee furthest away from the tightly grouped casters.

And a Panic Paragon? Better off giving a spear to a Mesmer, but I wouldnt recommend that either. A Panic Mesmer with Splinter Weapon might do better for you. If your an Imbagon, a Command and Motivation Paragon is definately the way to go. If your looking for synergy, it doesnt get any better than that. They turn mild paragon skills into OP wtfbbqsauce.

Ghull Ka · Dec 08, 2010, 06:34 PM // 18:34

No matter what overall teambuild I come up with, I'm pretty sure there'll be two or three copies of "Fall Back!" in my 7-hero parties.

Love me some perma-33% speedboosts!

jot. · Dec 08, 2010, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I'm still not sure your Orders Mesmer is your best bet. I see where your going but, your main objective is to keep OoP up at all times. OoP does not have a recharge, so any time you save on cast doesnt help much. Meanwhile you have 3 life sacrificing skills, making it an auto target for foes in a heartbeat. Take just you and your Orders Mesmer to master of damage or an explorable area and fight some foes for a while. Then take a Necro Orders or ER Orders and test it the same way. You might be surprised at the results. Only problem with the cultists fervor Necro is that your H/H will waste valuable energy removing the bleeding. If I could find a way past that , I like the Necro better. Thats why if adrenaline isnt a big issue I use this. Dont forget the enchantment mods

Thanks again for the feedback. The mesmer actually has 5 sac skills, haha. I'm aware that it may be the first target, but I hope my buttloads of defense will be able to cover that up. I also plan on microing ProtSpirit on it if needed. The rationale behind Mesmer orders is really just to pump out OoP + Barbs, and when needed, Blood Ritual as fast as possible. Of course, this is all theorycraft and I've yet to test it, so it may well be subpar compared to more traditional heroes.

robo47 · Dec 08, 2010, 11:13 PM // 23:13

How well do heroes use keystone signet/VoR?