Curse

Gabs88 · Mar 12, 2011, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Well, i decided to test 5 mesmers. So i spendt 7 hours leveling up 3 characters, which BTW was a COMPLETE waste of time. As I could simply have made a pvp char, deleted it, made another, deleted it, made another and deleted that too. Result? 3 merc heroes! You dont have to level em up yourself

But anyhow, this is absolutely messing too much with my head! It's ridicilous... Adding 1 mesmer to a team is easy, 2 is allso rather easy.. 3, well, it's not too bad. 4, aboslute headache! 5 twists your head in directions that isent supposed to be possible! In short the problem is that the more mesmers you add the more problems arise and the more complicated things become, the skill that wouldnt have been sucessfull if it was sucessfull gets rupted and there's too little skills to rupt which resoults in energy management problems. Key skills get messed up and bla bla bla bla bla bla blablablaba. In short, I dont think 5 mesmers is really going to be a good idea! But im still hoping somebody here has a good enough grip on mesmers to figure a way to add 5 to the same team without messing everything up in every imagineable direction!

So in short, 5 mesmer hero bars. 1 team, where do you add healing, what kind of energy management on which chars and stuff like that.

Taurean · Mar 12, 2011, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Does it work in pvm though? Trial and error is usually better than twisting your mind out before setting out..

MaxMurderMan · Mar 12, 2011, 02:50 AM // 02:50

5 keystone sig mesmer? Might be interesting but not likely

Why? · Mar 12, 2011, 03:13 AM // 03:13

less interrupts, but more of the other mesmery goodness. Keystone is a good place to start. But remove the all the million interrupts.

Life Bringing · Mar 12, 2011, 03:35 AM // 03:35

couldnt finish the fifth bar, but i have four fairly solid bars here.

LifeInfusion · Mar 12, 2011, 04:13 AM // 04:13

I don't think 5 non-keystone mesmers is a good idea and after the 2nd keystone it's hard to run Illusion attack "interrupts" if the targets use attack skills since you need targets to attack (they don't do that while knocked down). The energy management of interrupts (Power drain) more or less disappears unless you're running mostly Keystone bars. You could sub in Waste Not, Want Not but that's only better @ 6 inspir or so.

Elites:
Panic --> Psychic Instability becomes pointless
E-surge --> all the nonelites will basically be on the Panic bar (Unnatural signet, cry of frustration, mistrust, etc.)
Keystone --> 550 armor ignoring per 10 seconds
Tease --> Restoration magic? (not better than Mo/Me Tease Protter)
Ineptitude --> less triggers with Panic, but when there's no skill spam it's fine

You could probably do FD (Fevered Dreams) solely for condition spread, but dazed is useless when you have Panic and also heroes don't run it well. Also Arcane conundrum is better overall on multi-mesmer teams unless you manage to get mobs with heavy hex removals, as it is energy management when used on multiple mobs.

Keystone spam is the highest damage mesmers can put out without energy management skills cluttering 1/3 to 1/2 of the bar. Ineptitude + Clumsiness + Signet of Clumsiness + Wandering eye are close.

With Keystone signet, the main damage other than Keystone itself is Signet of Clumsiness x2, Unnatural signet x2. If >2 copies of Signet of Clumsiness is used you have potential knocklock (2s knockdown, each Keystone mesmer has it on ~5 cooldown).

@ Kaida: physic Instability at breakpoint of 12 is 4s knockdown on ~8 cooldown. After the 2nd copy you have diminishing returns, similar to after the 2nd Keystone with signet of clumsiness. You could probably spam Wastrel's Worry and Wastrel's Demise with a setup like that though.

Kaida the Heartless · Mar 12, 2011, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Just run 5 PI Mesmers? Now running DuckDuckGooseway.

Edit:
Also, what ever happened to VoR? Is Panic really the better option when you could simply have another char shut down the monks?

Aly Lightningstorm · Mar 12, 2011, 04:23 AM // 04:23

The solution to the problem is... add a necromancer with Blood is Power and restoration spirits?

But yeah, it seems difficult to put 5 mesmer heroes together without causing all sorts of problems. Without having them constantly interfering with each other. Especially if you give panic to any of them.

Maybe it's just too much of a good thing...

AlsPals · Mar 12, 2011, 04:44 AM // 04:44

I folded a few hours ago and went for the 3 merc bundle with an old giftcard I had lying around, and am currently testing 5 mesmers in various places. Notable places include FOW which I can do most of in 50 minutes(will probably update something about that later) until the battlefield where for some reason I just get wiped every time. The melee guys chew you up very fast while trying to keep icehands from putting Maelstrom on you. What I have is far from optimal, but you can do lvl 1 of Bogroots in 4-5 minutes if you have more than one condition removal, and 6-8 with the following setup.

Lvl 2 was a total of 15 minutes IF I didnt wipe to random Incubi patrols, the very first patriarch mob on lvl 2, and the room immediately after. I am 100% positive with a basic Hero makeup, the entire run can be done in 12-15 minutes. Having Xandra drop spirits to distract patrols is a boon, then you hit "Fall Back!" Add in the 2 minutes, and you can do ridiculous runs alone. Too bad it still sucks unless you get a froggy. BTW, im thinking 2 keystone instead of the E-Surge I ran.

Edit:if you cant see bars
http://s1238.photobucket.com/albums/...rent=gw094.jpg

AndroBubbles · Mar 12, 2011, 08:28 AM // 08:28

I just use 3 mesmers. One panic, one esurge, one ineptitude. 3 is pretty much the perfect number for me. I don't really find that panic interferes too much with the others, and most of their skills compliment each other aside from that. I've successfully done NM DoA with them, though I have yet to try it in HM.

Then I just fill in with a SoS/smite hero, offensive communing spam with ST for more mobility, a minion master, and a paragon hero with anthem of envy/weariness+stand your ground for epic spirit damage+party defense. The last two slots are optional for the most part.

Xsiriss · Mar 12, 2011, 10:25 AM // 10:25

The key to guild wars has always been balance. This means having support roles (ie mesmer,ritualist) and primary roles (healers,a frontliner and DPS).

Gabs88 · Mar 12, 2011, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurean

Does it work in pvm though? Trial and error is usually better than twisting your mind out before setting out..

well even with trial and error 5 mesmers presents you with a lot of headaches.. trust me

been using topk hm as a testing ground since i believe the groups are hard enough to punish you severely for any mistakes on the bars and go down very smoothly when things work.

i am however starting to think this may just not work out though

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Just run 5 PI Mesmers? Now running DuckDuckGooseway.

Edit:
Also, what ever happened to VoR? Is Panic really the better option when you could simply have another char shut down the monks?

vor gets punished if you have more then 1 mesmer hex on the target. with 5 mesmers, that kindof likely to happen

Daesu · Mar 12, 2011, 03:34 PM // 15:34

The other interesting thing to try, and saw this in pom pom's 4 mesmers team, is to bring arcane mimicry on your mesmers. I don't know how well that would work out.

Gabs88 · Mar 12, 2011, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The other interesting thing to try, and saw this in pom pom's 4 mesmers team, is to bring arcane mimicry on your mesmers. I don't know how well that would work out.

in short it's pointless, needs micromanaging to make it anywhere near effective. in uw\doa it might work for a caster spike though but still think its mainly pointless.

FoxBat · Mar 12, 2011, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

vor gets punished if you have more then 1 mesmer hex on the target. with 5 mesmers, that kindof likely to happen

50 damage per skill still has a high damage potential compared to a 100 damage 1-shot nuke. (Or, it would if you weren't being panic'd to death.)

Daesu · Mar 12, 2011, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

in short it's pointless, needs micromanaging to make it anywhere near effective. in uw\doa it might work for a caster spike though but still think its mainly pointless.

If it is that pointless, then I wouldnt bother with it in uw/doa either since it is 15e and only lasts for 20s.

ensoriki · Mar 12, 2011, 05:29 PM // 17:29

From what I understood, what you showed is that Panic does not synergize with a lot of mesmers. Which is fine with 5 mesmers you can pack so much hate/interrupts why would you bring Panic? It seems counterproductive by nature, so forget panic and take the other glorious stuff the mesmer has to offer?
PI, Tease, VoR, Shared Burden, Stolen Speed, keystone.

5 mesmers seems like your not covering your bases though, but even then you can go Me/Rt, Me/Mo Me/N and get what you need and then you still have 2 more slots to fill up. A necro would take the pressure off once minions going off, and with all the hate 5 mesmers can bring I don't think theres much of a worry at all. Should be fine?

AlsPals · Mar 12, 2011, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

From what I understood, what you showed is that Panic does not synergize with a lot of mesmers. Which is fine with 5 mesmers you can pack so much hate/interrupts why would you bring Panic? It seems counterproductive by nature, so forget panic and take the other glorious stuff the mesmer has to offer?
PI, Tease, VoR, Shared Burden, Stolen Speed, keystone.

5 mesmers seems like your not covering your bases though, but even then you can go Me/Rt, Me/Mo Me/N and get what you need and then you still have 2 more slots to fill up. A necro would take the pressure off once minions going off, and with all the hate 5 mesmers can bring I don't think theres much of a worry at all. Should be fine?

I totally disagree about the first point. Panic makes mesmer teams work even better thanks to party-wide shutdown, and it gives skills like Unnatural Sig and shatter delusions spiking while the opponents have no recourse. I am almost 90% sure now Keystone is not very good *UNLESS* you micro it into a spike, otherwise it does great things sometimes, and misses the damage mark other times. Visions of Regret is ok, but in Hard Mode, most of the time no one wants opponents to activate any skills, cause while they may take 39 or 80 damage, they can still top out at 150+ against you easy. Stolen Speed is outclassed by VOR and Panic unless again you are microing a spike that can benefit from the speed(But with the fact that it does nothing to aftercast, its still not very good.) you will obtain. PI Is by far a universal hoser that I only wish Heroes prioritized more, because it could be the best elite in the mesmer line by leaps and bounds. Shared Burden was the skill I ran with for the longest, but it like Panic makes Hard Mode easier than Normal Mode. Since save for PI none of these skills synergize, Panic is 99% of the time the best elite to run with. The only time you wouldnt run it is in a high-hex removal area, in which case PI is the best. VOR pre-nerf would by outstanding, but currently, too many Mesmer hexes are good to just throw VOR on and leave it alone.

5 mesmers can cover all bases well, just without the consistent energy of N/x variants. Thankfully, PI serves as the "whats what" since you can add "Waste Not, Want Not" on everyone and see nice returns on every single battle. In Normal Mode you can actually run a dedicated healer and a couple insurance heals on someone else, and put more damage in the 6 and 7 slots. HM 5 mesmers, a healer, hopefully a Communing spirit spammer, and a heal/nuke hybrid does great things. The attack speed increase on the HM creatures just makes your spells so much better. Toss in a couple x/p hybrids on either the mesmers or others, and when trouble brews, Fall Back! stands to get you out of trouble, usually leaving Spirits and/or minions to take the focus of whatever mob/s you please. There is a lot more depth to 5 mesmers, but I am still exploring myself, so I cannot be too specific.

Gabs88 · Mar 13, 2011, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

From what I understood, what you showed is that Panic does not synergize with a lot of mesmers. Which is fine with 5 mesmers you can pack so much hate/interrupts why would you bring Panic? It seems counterproductive by nature, so forget panic and take the other glorious stuff the mesmer has to offer?
PI, Tease, VoR, Shared Burden, Stolen Speed, keystone.

5 mesmers seems like your not covering your bases though, but even then you can go Me/Rt, Me/Mo Me/N and get what you need and then you still have 2 more slots to fill up. A necro would take the pressure off once minions going off, and with all the hate 5 mesmers can bring I don't think theres much of a worry at all. Should be fine?

Not really what i said at all ;p Panic is great, and with 5 mesmers and PI on top it just gets better. As the near complete shutdown massively buffs skills like Wastrel's Worry and Collapse. But at the same time it sucks since it interrupts skills like Mistrust before they activate.

What i came up with myself is that 5 mesmers, alternaught it works, is a niche gameplay alternative. At best i got to third level in ToPK with a total of 5 heals and 3 prot skills spread across all bars. But it still didnt quite feel like it was doing the trick, ATM im running PI, Panic and Ineptitude mesmers and im happy with 3 instead of 5. After that I got SoGM and 3x Discord necros as backline, but the Discord backline is probably changing though. My guess is that i'll keep 2x Discord as a Jagged Bones alternative and to spike down the leftover mobs that dont get caught in AoE and make a cursenec build to fit in there. Still a work in progress though

Dzjudz · Mar 13, 2011, 04:12 AM // 04:12

3+ mesmers really calls for Frustration on an illusion bar somewhere.