Curse

Plutoman · Mar 17, 2011, 07:10 PM // 19:10

I'd been using the DoA thread, but I wasn't getting much feedback. Not many people seem to be looking at it, so I figured.. Eh, may as well make a new thread. This cleared up through the first quest in the foundry, smoothly I might add, and I didn't continue further because of a 27sec lag spike that wiped me. My brother got on SC2, my internet's not good enough for that o.o

Here's my setup. As the ER Prot, I generally can keep the majority of damage off of the heroes, while the ST takes any excess when bonds go down. I micro Shared Burden onto mobs, which is particularly effective in mitigating damage and allowing interrupts. Not something I'm gonna remove; and for suggestions of stolen speed/arcane conundrum, they are only anti-caster - Shared Burden is also effective mitigation against large groups of Dervish's, Warrior's, etc.

It might be considered anti-synergy with TWE/Clumsiness, but they still get off attacks frequently. It just means half as many attacks = more attacks that are failed and deal damage as a percentage of the total. It's extremely effective against healer's, the Margonite Ki's that are annoying, and it stops Rage titans dead when they try to pull off Churning Earth with a 4 sec cast.

This also seems to me to suggest the power of the Mesmers - I couldn't get the same results running anything else, I had to substitute Necro's in. I dislike the increased casting/recharge times, but I can lose the extra energy management for hex/enchantment removal. I'd love to have Weapon of Quickening somewhere in here, but that's unlikely to fit.

This should be usable for any Caster class, just take an AoE damage build of your choice, and add in an ER Prot over a N/Me, most likely the E-Surge. Rangers, Dervish's, Paragons, and Warriors should use an AoE damage with SY (which honestly is probably more effective then this, as you get AoE damage, plus unstrippable protection). Untested, of course though.

The third room, you have to cross and flag in the corner of the room, and pull mobs. If you keep fairly close together (you have a little bit of room to move, but watch other patrols) you can keep with one mob at a time. I pulled a second, accidentally, when the first was almost dead, but I still managed fine. Just needs care.

Any input?

tuweky · Mar 17, 2011, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Got 2 questions:

1. Is this for Normal Mode or Hard Mode?

2. Why Splinter Weapon?

Plutoman · Mar 17, 2011, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuweky

Got 2 questions:

1. Is this for Normal Mode or Hard Mode?

2. Why Splinter Weapon?

1. NM Foundry, haven't tested HM. Should still be effective, but difficult. SY is probably better for HM.
2. Dunno! Forgot to remove it, was using it with minions and my girlfriend's barrage. That will be promptly changed.

HigherMinion · Mar 17, 2011, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Don't bother with both Protective Bond and Shelter...

Plutoman · Mar 17, 2011, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Don't bother with both Protective Bond and Shelter...

Need them; with just shelter, the ST rit runs out of energy trying to maintain all the spirits, or they go down before ST recharges.

With just bonds, they'll get stripped at some point by Despair Titans (chillblains) and Greater Dream Riders (Mirror Of Disenchantment), or you run out of energy trying to prevent spikes from multiple Rages.

I've been testing this for the past week, this is the first genuinely successful build that managed to keep up easily against the area. Key word, easily.

Also, gloom is relatively easy. If just doing gloom, there's many combinations that work. The set of builds I've put up should manage a FR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braxton619

I don't really care if you think RHG is easy. A lot of my friends who has good heroes still can't do it. Thats why I put the info up.

No offense intended! Note I said 'relatively'. Compared to the Foundry, it's a cakewalk. Compared to the rest of NF, it's a pain in the.. yeah. Just working on Foundry in particular; the rest of them are easier to handle. Gloom is easiest with a tank to hold aggro at the front, or minions. Something such as 'Stand Your Ground!', SY, 'They're on Fire!', bonds of any kinds, will mitigate the damage long enough as long as you have some control of where the enemies are going.

Ideally, with the builds I put up, in the gloom; let the Order of the Whispers take the brunt of the first enemies, and use Shared Burden mercilessly to keep them in one spot. For extra safety, have the SoS put spirits up a bit ahead. Generally, all the casters/rangers will ball up together and go down fast. Once they're down, the rest goes down shortly.

Outside of the cave, clear the patrols before doing too much else. There's several strategies for the boss, too, that are effective.

Jeydra · Mar 17, 2011, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Way too much defense to be honest. You're running ER Ele yourself with Protective Bond, and yet every character other than the ESurge has some kind of defense to go along with it. Why bother? It's NM. Add more offense. Drop the ST Rit and go for SoGM, drop the UA healer and go for UA smite, switch out your build to whatever damage build you want and if you're worried you'll die switch out of one the Necros for a healer of some kind. Switch out the other Necro as well and put in another damage dealer of some kind - MM, Ranger, Para, whatever. Having so many 2s casts without Fast Casting is a death sentence to damage output.

I could give you micro build suggestions (e.g. take out Empathy for Mistrust), but I think at this point macro problems are more significant.

@Braxton619 - you posted a build for Ravenheart Gloom in a thread on Foundry? @_@

Plutoman · Mar 17, 2011, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Problem with that is.. Bonds get stripped. Easily. Mirror of Disenchantment, Chillblains (both of these can remove bonds from the entire party), massive AoE from Rage Titans. An ER Ele is not invulnerability, it's massive damage reduction for sure, but if several churning earth's go off, I can't hold up all the bonds. Two shockwaves can shoot it in the hole, too.

I've ran with an SoGM, and the team goes down. Fast. It wasn't until I added the ST Rit that it all went smoothly. I tried a damage build, but the ST rit didn't hold up enough.

It may be NM, but there's a lot of damage to go around in the foundry. The UA Healer + Rit healer are for sure needed. I still have deaths every so often, but with UA it's smooth and DP goes away fast.

I do agree with the Necro's - but I'm not entirely sure what to do about them. I need the blinds and damage from ineptitude; but I might swap the E-Surge. There's not a lot of viability from the Necro lineup for AoE armor-ignoring damage though. SS won't work with any of this. If you have input on the damaging portion, I'm welcome to it. The backline is solid and it has to hold up through a lot, and I'd rather have a bit extra and guarantee success than chance a bit less healing/prot and lose every other time (or more, particularly trying to use your suggestion of 2 healers and no prot - that wouldn't make it through the second room). The two Necro's can use work though. Ideally I'd want two more mesmers and the run would be easy.

Ah, to sum it up; the defense is needed. The idea was two prot, two healers, 4 AoE damagers. As far as AoE goes, mesmer is king on heroes. Might run a splinter barrage ranger as a hero, but I don't exactly trust melee heroes - same problem as minions. Aggro control. Have you done the foundry thoroughly here? As far as the damage differences go, there's little difference between HM and NM. Two levels of difference, that's it. Attack speeds, casting times, etc, are all increased, but there's little difference in damage.

Bear in mind I'm not using cons.

Jeydra · Mar 17, 2011, 11:56 PM // 23:56

It's because of the Mirror of Disenchant / Chillblains that you don't run the Burning Speed + Protective Bond template. It's because of Shockwave and Churning Earth that you flag heroes apart when fighting. The SoGM Rit does something like 90 DPS, way more than that of other heroes. I would not drop him, ever.

Yes I've done Foundry thoroughly, I even did it once in HM and posted the screenshot here on Guru. I firmly believe that the amount of defense you're bringing is overkill, but if you think the defense is needed, go right ahead.

greenough · Mar 18, 2011, 12:40 AM // 00:40

As long as you spread your hero's out and don't argo more than 2 groups at a time, foundry in nm you should be fine. Here's the build's i use, not designed for foundry only but for the whole run, rather do one, take a break and keep going to get more gems then backing out and switching builds for each one.

don't have to micro anything, just flag hero's.

easily done without use of cons, and easily doable in under 2 hours, i take a smoke break after every area, that's why the time is over 2. I've used the same build to do all but foundry without cons in HM, hero ran around and overargo'd towards the end and haven't bothered to go back. hope this helps.

build for mallyx, don't forget after your done with mobs to remove all caster weapons/spears from your hero's and disable the enchants, hex's and conditions. if your using a melee character bring a vamp weapon and swap once your inside instead of zealous. since your energy will be 0 the whole time.

Plutoman · Mar 18, 2011, 02:29 AM // 02:29

That build uses SY - what about something not using it? A caster profession?

It also uses an extra mesmer. Without extra mesmer firepower, or using SY, I don't see a lot of easy ways to manage.

I'll try a few other builds. This seems effective enough, but I'm open to trying other uses and ideas. If using cons it seems to manage HM.

I'm also wanting something to use for HM, but NM, no consets, and good speed is best. This should be something that can clear a full run, but anything that can manage foundry can usually manage a full run anyways.

I'll try your suggestions, and I'll make a few modifications of my own, and keep trying various ways. Ideally I want a full run NM in <2 hours. A full run HM in <2 hours, with consets.

I'll come back with my input after I've seen how all of it works together.. Yay, more testing.

Plutoman · Mar 18, 2011, 04:24 AM // 04:24

I gave it a shot as an SF ele + Paragon with various methods of damage, along with 'they're on fire' and 'stand your ground'. I also swapped in the SoGM Rit, and a UA Smiter. Failed, hardcore. Could barely go through the first room, wiped fast on the second.

Changed to a UA Healer, same result. Didn't change a thing. Swapped back in the ST Rit, and it went.. Well, though I had frequent deaths. Mostly manageable with UA. I went through the entirety of the first foundry quest in 17 minutes, rushing it. I'd see it as a viable approach of spreading burning + the para, along with an ST rit.

However, I beat the time at 16 minutes with my starting builds, with only one death the entire time. I bond only the healers, the Shared Burden Mes, and the ST Rit. So Shelter lasts much longer covering only the others in the group. It moves fast, and I can tank anything except Anguish titans - I cover ER with enough enchants to last through chillblains and well, mirror doesn't matter when it hits burning speed. If enchants go down, the ST Rit can more than cover it for the time it takes to start putting them back up. Hardest time is with large aggro's of Rage titans in small spaces; was more than manageable though.

If someone wants to try to beat that time? No consets. I'll record my team's time for a full foundry run soon. I'll see if I can manage a full DoA run with it.

I'm still open to more input, and I'm willing to try suggestions and test times out. I don't mean any offense to you, Jeydra, but as of all my times going through it are just showing me I need it. Feel free to assist in improving more, or try out my builds as a comparison

I appreciate the input given albeit it not working as well as hoped.

Jeydra · Mar 18, 2011, 01:00 PM // 13:00

I don't mean any offense either, but if I can clear Foundry NM and HM with the same builds that you tried and failed with, I'm almost forced to conclude that you're less skilled than me.

Did you read the tips in this thread? http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10447337.html

Also:

I was trying to see how much offense I could shove into the build before I started wiping ... the last fight in that image got quite hairy as well; I fought four mobs in a row without breaks.

aga · Mar 18, 2011, 01:16 PM // 13:16

^ didn't manage to complete foundry with those builds?

Jeydra · Mar 18, 2011, 01:19 PM // 13:19

No indeed. I got impatient, aggro'ed two mobs at the same time and had 3 people die on a Death Pact chain, including both Xandra and Livia. That was bad play. Why?

aga · Mar 18, 2011, 01:26 PM // 13:26

It's not bad play

. Getting impatient is the key to success, my style of play is very aggressive, I often pull 2 or more groups (even in DoA), or at the least let my heroes finish off the last few while I go off and pull another group, which is why I often run more defensive builds. I doubt I could manage such an offensive build as that.

greenough · Mar 18, 2011, 01:57 PM // 13:57

is that the whole thing in 10 or just the first 4 rooms?

Jeydra · Mar 18, 2011, 02:26 PM // 14:26

It's just the first four rooms. The entire area in 10 minutes is probably impossible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aga

It's not bad play

. Getting impatient is the key to success, my style of play is very aggressive, I often pull 2 or more groups (even in DoA), or at the least let my heroes finish off the last few while I go off and pull another group, which is why I often run more defensive builds. I doubt I could manage such an offensive build as that.

Lol, I thought the logical conclusion from "my style of play is very aggressive" would be "I love to run highly offensive builds".

I admit, running almost unadulterated offense like this one is very risky. Shove the build a little too hard and you'll see the red bars fall precipitously. Shove it just a little harder and you'll cause the Death Pact chain wipes that happened to me. The player who uses such a build must be prepared to concentrate, micro and aggro, because a small mistake can mean the end. In areas like DoA that's rather distressing, although it doesn't stop the build from returning fast times like this one.

I want to say I do this all the time, but to be honest, I usually do not play at this level. I often prefer to Leeroy straight from one group to the next. Someday I hope to find a build that can output as much (or nearly as much) damage as this one and still have everything else that I want. It might not be possible sadly, but I'll keep trying to fine-tune things.

In the meantime, I'll say that if two semi-healers, one Panic, one Aegis and one Prot Spirit suffice, then certainly combinations like two semi-healers, one Panic, one PI, one Aegis, one Prot Spirit and one "Stand Your Ground!" should be more than enough to allow some leeway to make mistakes and still live to tell the tale. 7 defensive characters, especially with one ER Ele maintaining Protective Bond, is simply way overkill.

greenough · Mar 18, 2011, 02:39 PM // 14:39

just went and tried after i saw 10 in the first 4, first try and 0 dp.

aga · Mar 18, 2011, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lol, I thought the logical conclusion from "my style of play is very aggressive" would be "I love to run highly offensive builds".

Aggressive pulls

. I wont be able to do my overaggroing if I run super aggressive team builds.

FengShuiDove · Mar 18, 2011, 02:55 PM // 14:55

I didn't keep the build, but I should have. I cleared out the rooms in about 8 minutes the other day, and, with extremely careful aggro, managed to clear the entire Foundry. Wiped on the second rescue... got cocky and didn't put up spirits beforehand.

With consumables and a summon, I probably could have easily (grain of salt) cleared it. I'll do my best to reconstruct the build and post it.

Previously, I didn't think it was doable without extreme knowledge and skill. Now, I'm starting to think it's possible. I swear to you, one way or another, I will get Foundry done with 7 heroes