Curse

zan the healer · Mar 25, 2011, 01:17 AM // 01:17

i think its also worth mentioning if you bring a st rit you do not need a n/mo in discord at all you can change it to n/rt for another healer and bring rejuvenation as the spirit or add extra hexes/conditions

Dusk_ · Mar 25, 2011, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

My argument is that it shouldn't even be called Discordway to begin with. Its more like necroway with discord tossed in because necros elites are all uninteresting to begin with.

The strength of necros had never been about their elite. Its about stuff like MoP and abusing Soul Reaping and Minions to the max.

No, the strength of Necros was that you could bring the whole kitchen sink with only three Hero bars. Sabway was about packing healing, prots, minions and curse support - all with good attribute points - and have plenty of energy management. Discordway was basically the same, except more support and more focus on spike damage.

That versatility used to be necessary, because of the limited skill sets you could control. Now? You're basically sacrificing effectiveness for versatility that's no longer necessary.

Take the OPs Discord bars, for example. You have three heroes all sharing the same roles, heals and prots split across 4 separate bars, all to have 3 copies of a bad Elite kill (not to mention sacrificing the player bar to fuel the whole thing).

Put AotL on the Minion Master, add in a dedicated healer, and voila, you now have the Player bar freed up, and an entire slot open for a pure DPS hero.

bhavv · Mar 25, 2011, 03:09 AM // 03:09

I run this myself, with me either as an ST rit, ER elly, or Imbagon:

It has plenty of AoE, Discord adds a powerful single target spike on top of all the AoE which tears enemies down really really fast.

I really dont see what other elites would be more useful. The roles of the necros isnt 'Discordway', its MM, Curses and Healer. Discord however fits brilliantly as their elite skills to vastly increase damage over what any other elite would allow.

If more AoE is needed, the channeling rits heals can be changed to Ancestors Rage + Spirit Rift as well, if youre comfortable with only having one dedicated healer and yourself as a protter.

All of the damage coming from the mesmers and necros ignores armor. That is what makes it so powerful, and way too underestimated by the anti discord people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Sabway was about packing healing, prots, minions

Sabway was great for 3 hero only teams, but it simply doesnt work alongside the panic + ineptitude mesmers for obvious reasons. Discord adds an extra 315+ armor ignoring damage every 2 seconds on top of the mesmers and spiritway, it is hugely significant, and far more powerful than running SS, a minion elite, and a restoration elite, or lame Icy Veins on top of the mesmer + rit meta.

Compared to the necro bars in this image:

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Changing the three necro elites to Discord would vastly overpower Ivy Veins, Lingering Curse and AOTL in the majority of PVE.

Also, Wastrel spells on mesmer heroes is a definite no - no. Everytime people critique the discord build and post their alternatives, the alternative builds are actually far worse.

UnChosen · Mar 25, 2011, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

No, the strength of Necros was that you could bring the whole kitchen sink with only three Hero bars. Sabway was about packing healing, prots, minions and curse support - all with good attribute points - and have plenty of energy management. Discordway was basically the same, except more support and more focus on spike damage.

That versatility used to be necessary, because of the limited skill sets you could control. Now? You're basically sacrificing effectiveness for versatility that's no longer necessary.

Take the OPs Discord bars, for example. You have three heroes all sharing the same roles, heals and prots split across 4 separate bars, all to have 3 copies of a bad Elite kill (not to mention sacrificing the player bar to fuel the whole thing).

Put AotL on the Minion Master, add in a dedicated healer, and voila, you now have the Player bar freed up, and an entire slot open for a pure DPS hero.

Just remove the minion spell and the enfeebling blood on one of the N/Rt and leave just Discord and that will be the dedicated healer.

Then move putrid bile for the other N/Rt back to the minion bomber, add in enfeebling blood and/or shadow of fear, then replace all the resto heal with channeling magic or other damage spells.

Edit: Beaten by Bhavv

Daesu · Mar 25, 2011, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by zan the healer

syg paragon is nice but it doesnt compliment the tanks for discord which are minions

i found taking a st rit makes your minions really strong tanks in areas that are not aoe heavy

Make the minions really strong tanks? What is the point of protecting the minions if you are intending to use death nova? What is the point of using necro heroes to exploit soul reaping if your minions don't die?

If you have used an Aotl MM, you can tell that you dont need to protect the minions for them to tank. You can keep creating new ones, feeding SR energy to all necros in your team plus more frequent death nova DPS. Discord MM is shitty with minion creation though.

Daesu · Mar 25, 2011, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Discord adds an extra 315+ armor ignoring damage every 2 seconds on top of the mesmers and spiritway, it is hugely significant, and far more powerful than running SS, a minion elite, and a restoration elite, or lame Icy Veins on top of the mesmer + rit meta.

That is single target damage, not AoE. It is always easier to heal single target damage than multiple.

Furthermore, Discord requires you to prep each target with both hex and condition, before it can spike. This brings down your overall DPS, since it is not just a damage number that is important but average damage over time.

For instance, look at your necros. When a new target is picked, with so many hexes carried over many of your heroes, chances are high that your target would be hexed fast. However, you should be wishing for a jagged, ineptitude or shadowsong to hit just the right target at the right time, since your condition inflicting spells are not well distributed. If your curse necro is being stupid and decides to cast his attack spells instead of his condition inflicting spells first, then your discord spike has to wait even longer.

You can overcome these if you micro your heroes though, but most discordway users are too lazy to do so.

Dusk_ · Mar 25, 2011, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Sabway was great for 3 hero only teams, but it simply doesnt work alongside the panic + ineptitude mesmers for obvious reasons. Discord adds an extra 315+ armor ignoring damage every 2 seconds on top of the mesmers and spiritway, it is hugely significant, and far more powerful than running SS, a minion elite, and a restoration elite, or lame Icy Veins on top of the mesmer + rit meta.

Thank you for agreeing with my statement that Sabway is crap now. Not sure what else you were trying to say, if anything else.

Quote:

Changing the three necro elites to Discord would vastly overpower Ivy Veins, Lingering Curse and AOTL in the majority of PVE.

And that's because Icy Veins and Lingering Curse are crap, not because Discord is good. And AotL isn't about damage, it's about maintaining your 11 minion cap, having strong meat shields, and increasing your minion creation speed so you don't sit around waiting. Apples to oranges.

Looking at your builds, you've basically done exactly what I've said everyone else does: run three necros just to run three necros. You could combine the MM and Curser with no real downside, and you'd have a free skill bar.

Throw in a Commandgon, and you'd increase the damage input of your minions and all your spirits, get Fall Back, and still have half the DPS of a Discord with spear auto-attack. Or bring and RoJer for spike AoE, or really anything else...

And personally, I'd bring Pain of Disenchantment on my Healer, but that's personal preference. Someone else here uses Ravenous Gaze, which may be more effective DPS (healers don't prioritize Discord).

(By the way, how often does Discord even get used with Ineptitude and Shadowsong as your only condition skills?)

Kaida the Heartless · Mar 25, 2011, 09:26 AM // 09:26

I guarantee that if I Casterway'ed and Discordway'ed Forgeweight, I would get similar times. The best part is Hexway beats 'em both.

Seriously, what else are you going to run in a Caster Spike? Eles? RoJ, probably your best option, is terrible damage without snares and certainly doesn't justify the rest of the bar in a caster party. Anthem of Envy and "GftE!" aren't enough to justify the Commandagon in non-physway; stick "FB!" and "SYG!" (if you choose to use it) on a caster. UA is pointless because you are trying to up damage. Discord is actually making use of the two empty slots you would normally have and turning it into something to punch down threatening mobs. Unless you have Mercs, Discord is great filler.

Outerworld · Mar 25, 2011, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Anthem of Envy and "GftE!" aren't enough to justify the Commandagon in non-physway.

*cough*Splinterwep*cough*.

Sir Mad · Mar 25, 2011, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

No, the strength of Necros was that you could bring the whole kitchen sink with only three Hero bars. Sabway was about packing healing, prots, minions and curse support - all with good attribute points - and have plenty of energy management. Discordway was basically the same, except more support and more focus on spike damage.

That versatility used to be necessary, because of the limited skill sets you could control. Now? You're basically sacrificing effectiveness for versatility that's no longer necessary.

Take the OPs Discord bars, for example. You have three heroes all sharing the same roles, heals and prots split across 4 separate bars, all to have 3 copies of a bad Elite kill (not to mention sacrificing the player bar to fuel the whole thing).

Put AotL on the Minion Master, add in a dedicated healer, and voila, you now have the Player bar freed up, and an entire slot open for a pure DPS hero.

I love this post. It's funny how some people already think in a GW2 manner (those who love Discordway not because of discord but because of the versatility of each bar), and how some people stick on the old fashioned way: tank/healer/DPS (or at least dedicated healer/DPS).

Yes, a monk for example will most of the time do better at healing than 2 necros with half a healer's bar each. But the thing is... Most of the teams now have up to 30 minions (or even more sometimes), 10 spirits, s*** loads of protection skills (SoYG, ToF, SY!, not to mention the Prot line), so how often do your heroes need to be healed? Yes, sometimes they do, but most of the time they don't. If you bring a dedicated healer, what will he do then when nobody needs a heal? Nothing. You've just wasted a slot. 2 heroes with a hybrid bar instead will use their offensive skills.

PS: What's the deal with AotL? It's crap on heroes: they can't use it properly, and basically, the only advantage it has is it gives you +1 Death Magic.

majoho · Mar 25, 2011, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

PS: What's the deal with AotL? It's crap on heroes: they can't use it properly, and basically, the only advantage it has is it gives you +1 Death Magic.

It's true that heroes will only cast it for the buff, but it's still useful for maintaining a big army AND being able to work as a minion bomber at the same time.

AndrewSX · Mar 25, 2011, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

PS: What's the deal with AotL? It's crap on heroes: they can't use it properly, and basically, the only advantage it has is it gives you +1 Death Magic.

The "only" advantage of Aotl is create one minion for each corpse in earshot AND boost death magic for any successive evocation. Combine it with masochism and runes can easily pump death to 18-20. Aotl became maintenable, and when you cast Aotl @ 18-20 Death is gg.
11x lvl 20 minions.

And how can heroes do not use it properly? AotL is just used anytime you can, and can turn all dead bodies in minion army. Yes, is possible have heroes cast it right before battle w/o corpses, but give them simply "Animate bone horror". Problem solved. BotM for keep minions up and roll!

About Discord: i hate discord, ad i'm sure that a good team build is preferred over it using 7 heroes. But i can't negate that is good for a single spike. Atm i'm doing some ferndale VQ(when there aren't people for MTSC), and discord is quite effective to spike down monks and rits that keep alive the rest of mobs. kill them w/ 2 discord heroes while other 5 obliterate the rest.

bhavv · Mar 25, 2011, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

That is single target damage, not AoE. It is always easier to heal single target damage than multiple.

Furthermore, Discord requires you to prep each target with both hex and condition, before it can spike. This brings down your overall DPS, since it is not just a damage number that is important but average damage over time.

For instance, look at your necros. When a new target is picked, with so many hexes carried over many of your heroes, chances are high that your target would be hexed fast. However, you should be wishing for a jagged, ineptitude or shadowsong to hit just the right target at the right time, since your condition inflicting spells are not well distributed. If your curse necro is being stupid and decides to cast his attack spells instead of his condition inflicting spells first, then your discord spike has to wait even longer.

You can overcome these if you micro your heroes though, but most discordway users are too lazy to do so.

Yea, but the single target inflicted damage from Discord is still more damage than other necro elites provide. I rarely have any problem with hexes and conditions being applied automatically wit those heroes, I hardly ever have to micro a thing, you just have to stand still popping spirits, or spamming prots as an elly and everything ends up dead.

Theres plenty of AoE damage coming from the mesmers, MoP, and desecrate + defile enchantments x 2. As far as I'm concerned, elite skills are never used for AoE in most heroways. SoS + SoGM arent AoE skills, and neither do spirits have AoE attaks, but no one ever complains about those. Its not very easy healing the discord targets when everything else has the mesmers and spirits doing their job as well.

Discord isnt the only skill on the team setup, its 3 out of 64 skills. It would do you some good to look at the rest of the set up rather than illogically focusing on Discord alone for its lack of AoE.

Its simply no where near as weak, or as bad as others are making it out to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

(By the way, how often does Discord even get used with Ineptitude and Shadowsong as your only condition skills?)

Ineptitude, Shadowsong, Black Powder Mine, Shambling Horrors, Enfeebling Blood + Weaken armor you mean? Discord gets used pretty much all the time. You can also try microing the condition skills as Daesu suggested, but I've never found it neccessary, everything I've tried gets steamrolled anyway. The only places I know of where it wouldnt be the best build to take is in UW + DoA. I'm not so convinced that is wouldnt work in Slavers, but I have never enjoyed doing Eotn dungeons so I'm not really bothered about that.

Imaginos · Mar 25, 2011, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

(By the way, how often does Discord even get used with Ineptitude and Shadowsong as your only condition skills?)

Bhavv has Enfeebling Blood (aoe weakness) and Weaken Armor (aoe cracked armor) in there also for conditions.

spray04 · Mar 25, 2011, 02:01 PM // 14:01

About Slaver's, I already completed it with the build I posted (I'm the OP); just bring Swap on player bar for Duncan and maybe FS somewhere.

About AotL, the build I posted maintains more minions that one AotL MM, usually in the 12-13 range, even up to 15-16 when there are enough corpses (albeit AotL is stronger minions, but the importance of that is debatable in bomber build). I get no slowdowns when the minion raising is divided across 3 necros, and the two shambling horrors last longer than that one extra horror from AotL in terms of maintaining the minion number. Just try it.

About "massive AOE damage," others have refuted it very well already. It's funny how people are talking like their "AOE damage" builds hit everything with the power of discords at the same time. What are these elites you guys have in mind? RoJ? Searing Flames? Barrage? Please....... I'd get another mesmer with ESurge if I had mercs, but let's not make comparisons with merc setups.

Like Foxbat said, I indeed intended this thread to help people who are running discordway, etc. run the best version of it; I wasn't saying this was the best build ever. But the extent to which stubborn people are dismissing its effectiveness is amazing.

Outerworld · Mar 25, 2011, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by spray04

About "massive AOE damage," others have refuted it very well already. It's funny how people are talking like their "AOE damage" builds hit everything with the power of discords at the same time.

Thats because they do.

spray04 · Mar 25, 2011, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

Thats because they do.

Post this build. Lets see it.

Outerworld · Mar 25, 2011, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by spray04

Post this build. Lets see it.

We have Splinter, E-surge, Mistrust, Unatural Sig, Keystone, Overload, DN.

All of these>discord.

spray04 · Mar 25, 2011, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

We have Splinter, E-surge, Mistrust, Unatural Sig, Keystone, Overload, DN.

All of these>discord.

LOL, most of those skills are already in my build in the first post. As for the others, Panic > Keystone; Overload is bad on heroes. Excellent example of someone who doesn't realize Discord is 3 skills out of 64. Or was this a joke?

Outerworld · Mar 25, 2011, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by spray04

LOL, most of those skills are already in my build in the first post. As for the others, Panic > Keystone; Overload is bad on heroes. Excellent example of someone who doesn't realize Discord is 3 skills out of 64. Or was this a joke?

1)Panic doesn't do damage, Keystone does (You run Keystone for the damage over the rupts anyway tbh).
2)Overload is fine on heroes.
3)Discord is 3 skills out of 64 your right, of which you want spammed constantly otherwise theres no point bringing it.

Excellent example of someone who can't break away from what is essentially an inferior build.