Curse

Richardt · Jun 16, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

Slotting Soothing Memories without an item is pretty dumb. Might as well put Spirit Transfer in that spot.

I had a feeling someone would say this

I could really care less about the 3 energy back. If I was running a Rit/Necro then I would be more concerned. The reason I included it over say another spirit or spell is that I wanted skill that provides a decent amount of healing for cheap with a moderate recharge. Soothing Memories fulfilled both requirements. As is, Soul Reaping and Signet of Lost Souls provides plenty of energy.

DarkSpirit · Jun 16, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

If you aren't using an enchanting mod, that's pretty bad. An enchanting mod gives the Dervish 6 seconds to be doing whatever with in between, b/c they wont recast the orders until they're expiring. Also, if you can't get 4 hits in 6 seconds to put up SY!, then theres something wrong with what you are doing.

I think you misunderstood the principle behind my pious renewal build if you are suggesting the use of an enchanting mod. I am not saying the enchanting mod would not work with my build but the goal is not to keep enchantments around for as long as possible, on the contrary the principle of the build is to let enchantments expire as soon as possible. Why do you think I have 4 skills out of a possible 6 skill slots to choose from, that grant an advantage to expiring enchantments or cause enchantments to expire?

Rac's D/N build, on the other hand, is based around Arcane Zeal which grants an advantage to KEEPing as many enchantments around for a longer period of time. This is why he uses Faithful Intervention and Watchful Intervention which my build does not. While I prefer either a) a skill that loses an enchantment and grant some benefits or b) a longer lasting enchantment that I can get rid of later when I need to (e.g. through Signet of Pious Light) giving me additional healing if I do that, but if I dont need the heal from the Signet, its benefit would last all the way through the 20s without having me to recast within that time period. Mystic Regen is just such a skill.

Quote:

Regarding Dwayna's Touch. The Dervish has 6 seconds to heal itself!
Theres no reason it shouldn't be able to do that within that timeframe. I do agree with you on the Mystic Regeneration part though. Also, that is why flagging is pretty key. If you flag the Dervish at the appropriate distance, they wont try to Dwayna's Touch others for heals, just themselves.

You can flag, but Vow of Piety has a range. Also, Dwayna's Touch effectiveness is based on the number of enchantments carried at the time, which fits Rac's build better.

Furthermore, you dont need 11 to blood magic, 10 should be enough and the difference in wind prayers levels between Rac's build and mine is only 2 level difference. That is only a difference of 6hp for Vow of Piety but on the plus side, I gain a +3 Mystic Regen and Signet of Pious Light which are awesome skills.

Do I need to put more into Earth prayers for these 2 skills? Not really. I would need a level 13 Earth Prayer for the next breakpoint for Mystic Regeneration. Bringing it up to 11 doesn't make any difference to Mystic Regen. Do I really need vital boon? Not really. You said it yourself, more hp means sacrificing more health. I see little benefit in getting rid of Vow of Piety just to get 18hp off Signet of Pious Light and 0 benefit to Mystic Regen.

The good news is, the Earth Prayer and Wind Prayer skills really do not need huge attribute point investments to be effective. The extra amount of healing from having them at alittle higher level is negligible so I rather spread the attributes to make sure that I have the best skills for the D/N. Once I recognized that, I could add Signet of Pious Light and Mystic Regen into Rac's original Wind Prayer based build.

Problem. · Jun 17, 2008, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I think you misunderstood the principle behind my pious renewal build if you are suggesting the use of an enchanting mod. I am not saying the enchanting mod would not work with my build but the goal is not to keep enchantments around for as long as possible, on the contrary the principle of the build is to let enchantments expire as soon as possible. Why do you think I have 4 skills out of a possible 6 skill slots to choose from, that grant an advantage to expiring enchantments or cause enchantments to expire?

Rac's D/N build, on the other hand, is based around Arcane Zeal which grants an advantage to KEEPing as many enchantments around for a longer period of time. This is why he uses Faithful Intervention and Watchful Intervention which my build does not. While I prefer either a) a skill that loses an enchantment and grant some benefits or b) a longer lasting enchantment that I can get rid of later when I need to (e.g. through Signet of Pious Light) giving me additional healing if I do that, but if I dont need the heal from the Signet, its benefit would last all the way through the 20s without having me to recast within that time period. Mystic Regen is just such a skill.

You can flag, but Vow of Piety has a range. Also, Dwayna's Touch effectiveness is based on the number of enchantments carried at the time, which fits Rac's build better.

Furthermore, you dont need 11 to blood magic, 10 should be enough and the difference in wind prayers levels between Rac's build and mine is only 2 level difference. That is only a difference of 6hp for Vow of Piety but on the plus side, I gain a +3 Mystic Regen and Signet of Pious Light which are awesome skills.

Do I need to put more into Earth prayers for these 2 skills? Not really. I would need a level 13 Earth Prayer for the next breakpoint for Mystic Regeneration. Bringing it up to 11 doesn't make any difference to Mystic Regen. Do I really need vital boon? Not really. You said it yourself, more hp means sacrificing more health. I see little benefit in getting rid of Vow of Piety just to get 18hp off Signet of Pious Light and 0 benefit to Mystic Regen.

The good news is, the Earth Prayer and Wind Prayer skills really do not need huge attribute point investments to be effective. The extra amount of healing from having them at alittle higher level is negligible so I rather spread the attributes to make sure that I have the best skills for the D/N. Once I recognized that, I could add Signet of Pious Light and Mystic Regen into Rac's original Wind Prayer based build.

You are taking what I'm saying out of context and you missed the point entirely.

Heres the point: The build you are using is inefficient at what it does because of your split attributes.

Ok so you have the best skills....but they are ineffective because of your attributes. Thats like saying, I have this Warrior with the best skills of every line, but thye are worth nothing because of my attributes. Same story here.

You are using Pious Renewal but can be benefitting greater by speccing Wind Prayers, or Earth Prayers.

Since it seems you want to go Earth Prayers you can easily do this:
[build prof=D/N name="Pious Renewal" mys=10+1+1 earthp=11+1 blo=10][Pious Renewal][Dark Fury][Order of Pain][Signet of Pious Light][Imbue Health][Armor of Sanctity][Mystic Regeneration][Vital Boon][/build]
The whole point of the build is to keep the Orders up for as long as possible on the rest of your team, and utilize the quick cast/recharging Earth Prayers to fuel Signet of Pious Light, as well as the orders (even though the D/N might Signet of Pious Light the orders off himself, that wont affect the rest of his party).

DarkSpirit · Jun 17, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

You are taking what I'm saying out of context and you missed the point entirely.

Heres the point: The build you are using is inefficient at what it does because of your split attributes.

Ok so you have the best skills....but they are ineffective because of your attributes. Thats like saying, I have this Warrior with the best skills of every line, but thye are worth nothing because of my attributes. Same story here.

You are using Pious Renewal but can be benefitting greater by speccing Wind Prayers, or Earth Prayers.

I have already answered your question if you read the second part of my previous post which you seem to have skipped reading. I dont need a higher level of Earth Prayer because I dont benefit much from it.

Quote:

Since it seems you want to go Earth Prayers you can easily do this:
[build prof=D/N name="Pious Renewal" mys=10+1+1 earthp=11+1 blo=10][Pious Renewal][Dark Fury][Order of Pain][Signet of Pious Light][Imbue Health][Armor of Sanctity][Mystic Regeneration][Vital Boon][/build]
The whole point of the build is to keep the Orders up for as long as possible on the rest of your team, and utilize the quick cast/recharging Earth Prayers to fuel Signet of Pious Light, as well as the orders (even though the D/N might Signet of Pious Light the orders off himself, that wont affect the rest of his party).

Mystic Regen is +3 at level 8 and also +3 at level 12 which you suggested above. How is that an improvement? You gain 24hp from the signet that is about it. In the process you have to lose Vow of Piety (35hp of passive healing at least every 5s), which integrates well with my build and Pious Restoration which helps to remove hexes like [[backfire] and self heals.

[[Armor of Sanctity] is a conditional defense. What happens if the enemy that is hitting you is not suffering from a condition? Wouldn't it make more sense to combine it with [[Veil of Thorns]? You already have +100 armor from SY, the D/N only needs some heals to offset her life sacrifice.

[[Vital Boon] causes the D/N to lose even more hp due to greater life sacrifice.

Although keeping the D/N alive is important, you are sacrificing a good passive party healing skill just for that purpose. You also lose a hex removal skill, [[Pious Restoration] which is useful for removing hexes on the dervish and helps to keep her alive. In return you added a conditional defense and a skill that causes her to lose even more health every 5s.

Mr Pink57 · Jun 17, 2008, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

I had a feeling someone would say this

I could really care less about the 3 energy back. If I was running a Rit/Necro then I would be more concerned. The reason I included it over say another spirit or spell is that I wanted skill that provides a decent amount of healing for cheap with a moderate recharge. Soothing Memories fulfilled both requirements. As is, Soul Reaping and Signet of Lost Souls provides plenty of energy.

[Vengeful Weapon] ..................

pink

Problem. · Jun 17, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I have already answered your question if you read the second part of my previous post which you seem to have skipped reading. I dont need a higher level of Earth Prayer because I dont benefit much from it.

Mystic Regen is +3 at level 8 and also +3 at level 12 which you suggested above. How is that an improvement? You gain 24hp from the signet that is about it. In the process you have to lose Vow of Piety (35hp of passive healing at least every 5s), which integrates well with my build and Pious Restoration which helps to remove hexes like [[backfire] and self heals.

[[Armor of Sanctity] is a conditional defense. What happens if the enemy that is hitting you is not suffering from a condition? Wouldn't it make more sense to combine it with [[Veil of Thorns]? You already have +100 armor from SY, the D/N only needs some heals to offset her life sacrifice.

[[Vital Boon] causes the D/N to lose even more hp due to greater life sacrifice.

Although keeping the D/N alive is important, you are sacrificing a good passive party healing skill just for that purpose. You also lose a hex removal skill, [[Pious Restoration] which is useful for removing hexes on the dervish and helps to keep her alive. In return you added a conditional defense and a skill that causes her to lose even more health every 5s.

Its not a matter of benefitting from the increased Earth Prayers, its a matter of splitting attributes and making skills inefficient as a result. And the reason you dont benefit from it much is because of your build....

Who cares about hte Mystic Regen changing? You have 3 other skills on that bar that would benefit from a decent spec in Earth Prayers...

Armor of Sanctity is not only for the defense, its for the quick casting/quick recharging enchantment to fuel your now 102 heal Signet of Pious Light. Also, if you're Paragons aren't spitting out conditions, then you are disadvantaging yourself.

I already stated that Vital Boon was cause greater life sacrifice, but those sacrifices will be offset by the fact that you have soo many enchantments, Mysticism + Pious Renewal will kick in, and when Vital Boon ends, you will most likely net health, especially since the now has tons more enchantments to Signet of Pious off (iirc from when I played such a bar in TA). Also, Vital Boon, when coupled wiht Signet of Pious Light, is going to either contribute to a 2-man heal or a really big spot heal on the Dervish.

If Vow of Piety is your primary reason for keeping Wind Prayers, its pretty short-sighted. Vow of Piety will give you in-direct, unfocused healing, most will likely go ot waste. That is easily offset by the fact that you have a buffed up Signet of Pious Light, which is a 102 spot heal, therefore way better than the 35 unfocused/passive heal for Vow of Piety. I'm not saying Vow of Piety is a bad skill, I use it in the Arcane Zeal Orders, but only because its the only other enchantment worth having for that bar as it fuels Arcane Zeal, as well as Mystic Healing, and provides healing itself.

About Pious Restoration, I think its a good skill, just if you going into an area you know you are going to be facing hexes, you tailor the paragons to that because they are flexible enough to do so....while still maintaining their damage. Also, Pious Restoration can't target allies.

I also wanna note that I'm not some regualar pve scrub that you can say doesn't understand concepts of the game. I GvG at the top-tier, I'm well aware of what skills do, and the synergy between them. I just wanted to put that their cause you took a stab earlier at me not understanding skills/skill synergies.

I also wanna note that I read you entire post, just didn't feel it necessary to comment on it because I thought pointing out the obvious synergies within the bar would be enough. But I didn't make the same mistake this time....

Look if you wanna run that....run it. I'm done arguing with you. It was just me making a friendly comment about your build, and you being able to make better use of attributes....

DarkSpirit · Jun 17, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

Its not a matter of benefitting from the increased Earth Prayers, its a matter of splitting attributes and making skills inefficient as a result. And the reason you dont benefit from it much is because of your build....

And I have already showed you that Mystic Regen makes no difference if you bring it up to 12 from 8. In that same process, you also lost 2 valuable skills.

Quote:

Who cares about hte Mystic Regen changing? You have 3 other skills on that bar that would benefit from a decent spec in Earth Prayers...

Armor of Sanctity is not only for the defense, its for the quick casting/quick recharging enchantment to fuel your now 102 heal Signet of Pious Light. Also, if you're Paragons aren't spitting out conditions, then you are disadvantaging yourself.

I already have 2 quick casting/quick recharging enchantments called [[Order of Pain] and [[Dark Fury]. Tell me why do I need a third one when casting the 2 orders already keep my D/N busy every 5s. The 2 orders+other enchantments already fuel my Signet of Pious Light.

My Paragons may be attacking another monster while some other monster maybe attacking my D/N.

Quote:

I already stated that Vital Boon was cause greater life sacrifice, but those sacrifices will be offset by the fact that you have soo many enchantments, Mysticism + Pious Renewal will kick in, and when Vital Boon ends, you will most likely net health,

I already have the orders ending on my Dervish every 5s (rather than every 20s from Vital Boon), plus if I need more healing, Signet of Pious Light or Pious Restoration would end an enchantment for me plus healing, what more do you need?

For the 20s that Vital Boon is around I lose health more than I need to, due to sacrifice, and when Vital Boon ends, I gain them back and then some? I dont see much advantage there, especially when it is a clear disadvantage for the whole 20s when it is active. How is that worth sacrificing Vow of Piety or Pious Restoration?

Quote:

especially since the now has tons more enchantments to Signet of Pious off (iirc from when I played such a bar in TA). Also, Vital Boon, when coupled wiht Signet of Pious Light, is going to either contribute to a 2-man heal or a really big spot heal on the Dervish.

The D/N doesn't cast Signet of Pious Light as often as you think and she can't because she will always have a limited number of enchantments. If she keeps casting it, rather than orders, that means your party is in trouble.

Quote:

If Vow of Piety is your primary reason for keeping Wind Prayers, its pretty short-sighted. Vow of Piety will give you in-direct, unfocused healing, most will likely go ot waste. That is easily offset by the fact that you have a buffed up Signet of Pious Light, which is a 102 spot heal, therefore way better than the 35 unfocused/passive heal for Vow of Piety. I'm not saying Vow of Piety is a bad skill, I use it in the Arcane Zeal Orders, but only because its the only other enchantment worth having for that bar as it fuels Arcane Zeal, as well as Mystic Healing, and provides healing itself.

Signet of Pious Light would only give a difference of 24hp between our builds but Vow of Piety gives 35hp passive healing. Your comparison is skewed.

Quote:

About Pious Restoration, I think its a good skill, just if you going into an area you know you are going to be facing hexes, you tailor the paragons to that because they are flexible enough to do so....while still maintaining their damage. Also, Pious Restoration can't target allies.

Most areas have some form of hexes. Even if you only face degen hexes like Conjure Nightmare, Pious Restoration could save you 200+hp from removing the hex, plus a 70hp heal.

Quote:

I also wanna note that I'm not some regualar pve scrub that you can say doesn't understand concepts of the game. I GvG at the top-tier, I'm well aware of what skills do, and the synergy between them. I just wanted to put that their cause you took a stab earlier at me not understanding skills/skill synergies.

I am not saying you dont understand the skills but you dont seem to understand why I put it together this way and why I dont feel a great need to get rid of Wind Prayers to buff up Earth to only 12. There are really not that many Earth skills that fit nicely into the D/N build. If there are, I am sure Rac would have known that and move it to Earth based.

Quote:

I also wanna note that I read you entire post, just didn't feel it necessary to comment on it because I thought pointing out the obvious synergies within the bar would be enough. But I didn't make the same mistake this time....

Armor of Sanctity doesn't really synergize with her skill considering that she doesn't have any condition causing skills. Monster behavior in PvE is quite different from player behavior in GvG. Monsters dont all attack the same target all the time. Often you have a 1 or 2 attacking 1 target and another attacking another target.

And SY doesn't exist in GvG. With SY, you hardly need Armor of Sanctity.

Quote:

Look if you wanna run that....run it. I'm done arguing with you. It was just me making a friendly comment about your build, and you being able to make better use of attributes....

I understand that and I am sorry if I sound argumentative. But if there are Earth Prayer based substitutes for Vow of Piety and hex removal property of Pious Restoration (otherwise backfire could hurt the D/N badly), I would move it to Earth Prayer in a heartbeat.

War My Guild · Jun 19, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

[N/Rt Orders; OAhkQYGa4KizkAjhtncDzxZV1bC]

Gonna try running this. Really, order of pain was the problem... It takes too long to cast and doesn't last long enough. +17 damage doesn't seem worth all the drawbacks, if you ask me. I slotted [splinter weapon] on there to help with damage.

Also, switched Hayda to have [song of restoration] instead of [song of purification], mainly because [weapon of remedy] can handle conditions.

[Hayda SoR; OQCjUqnK6SFZ+iDZaYrbqYubybA]

Sure the N/rt has way less armor than the Derv orders, but I'd rather take healing power. My SY! should hold the team up.

Good? Bad?

Mr Pink57 · Jun 20, 2008, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by War My Guild

[N/Rt Orders; OAhkQYGa4KizkAjhtncDzxZV1bC]

Gonna try running this. Really, order of pain was the problem... It takes too long to cast and doesn't last long enough. +17 damage doesn't seem worth all the drawbacks, if you ask me. I slotted [splinter weapon] on there to help with damage.

Also, switched Hayda to have [song of restoration] instead of [song of purification], mainly because [weapon of remedy] can handle conditions.

[Hayda SoR; OQCjUqnK6SFZ+iDZaYrbqYubybA]

Sure the N/rt has way less armor than the Derv orders, but I'd rather take healing power. My SY! should hold the team up.

Good? Bad?

\

That + dmg goes a very long way. Stunning Strike can do a theoretical +74 (+89 vs charr) keep in mind this is all armor ignoring.

pink

DarkSpirit · Jun 20, 2008, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by War My Guild

[N/Rt Orders; OAhkQYGa4KizkAjhtncDzxZV1bC]

Sure the N/rt has way less armor than the Derv orders, but I'd rather take healing power. My SY! should hold the team up.

Good? Bad?

I tried splitting the orders before and it does work better to split the life sacrifices. But in a mere 3-heroes build, your options for doing that is more limited. OOP is worth it.

BrianC · Jun 24, 2008, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Decided to try this build to vanquish Magus Stones. Could not find a combination of henchies/build variations that worked, though I only tried ranged henchies among Zho, Aiden, Herta, Mhenlo, Lo Sha, and Lina. I got close to completing the area twice, but there were three things that gave me headaches: 1) Wind Riders and Soothing Images, 2) Krait Arcanoss hitting my orders dervish (standing in the middle of my bunched up ranged attackers) with Blinding Surge, and 3) the Hylek Nahualli using Splinter Weapon on the Hylek Amini attacking my bunched up ranged attackers.

Today I replaced the orders dervish with a Rt/N minion master and took along Mhenlo, Lina, Herta and Talon. This made the vanquish quite easy even though the standard builds for the paragons could probably be tweaked to work even better with an MM. Though it has been awhile since I vanquished the area with my dervish using a sabway type of build, I thought this group worked at least as well.

Master Necromanz · Jun 27, 2008, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Should I try this, I am a necro >< or should I stay at Sabway with me as hexer, MM bomber, N/Rt Healer and 1 Song of Restoration para.

OR

Should I do:

Me as the build from Moloch Vein, with SV, MoF and SY and the hero setup.

Thanks,

Master Necromanz

War My Guild · Jun 27, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Unless the area/mission you're doing has no corpses or MM counters, then stay with Sab if you're a necro. The paras are mainly for melee chars (or paras)

DarkSpirit · Jun 27, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by War My Guild

Unless the area/mission you're doing has no corpses or MM counters, then stay with Sab if you're a necro. The paras are mainly for melee chars (or paras)

Paras are not mainly for melee chars (or paras). Depending on how you configure them they can work with casters too using [[They're on Fire], [[Defensive Anthem], [[Aria of Zeal], or [[Aria of Restoration], for example.

I would use a ToF Paragon, SH Ele, and Necro Healer, for a non MM 3-heroes build.

Master Necromanz · Jun 27, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

But if I am a SS necro (AP nuker, its the same ><), wich optional hero shall I take? Para or what's the best, you think?

Master Necromanz

Master Necromanz · Jun 27, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Sorry for double post.

DarkSpirit · Jun 27, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Necromanz

But if I am a SS necro (AP nuker, its the same ><), wich optional hero shall I take? Para or what's the best, you think?

Master Necromanz

The best build is one that is tweaked to the area that you are vanquishing. As for generic builds, sabway is fine for most areas in HM but there are other builds that clear faster than sabway.

I have replied to your PM and gave you some examples.

Master Necromanz · Jun 27, 2008, 05:10 PM // 17:10

In you post you only said wich builds I could use. Now I ask: What should I take as optional slot?

I dont really like ele in HM, dunno, but I dont like them and necro's are better healers IMO, energy FTW.

Maybe I should be the N/Rt and then add a hero wich shall I take as optional hero?

DarkSpirit · Jun 27, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Necromanz

In you post you only said wich builds I could use. Now I ask: What should I take as optional slot?

I dont really like ele in HM, dunno, but I dont like them and necro's are better healers IMO, energy FTW.

Maybe I should be the N/Rt and then add a hero wich shall I take as optional hero?

Eles have their place. [[Savannah Heat] is quite good even in HM. Even if you simply replace the SS Curse necro in Sabway with the SH ele (giving Enfeebling Blood to someone else to bring) you would find that it kills faster.

I would take ToF Paragon, MM, and SH Ele, if you choose to take the N/Rt healer spot. Also, for more offensive power, slot [[Splinter Weapon] into someone's skill bar and make sure you have [[Enfeebling Blood] (only need about 5 to curse) or [[Anthem of Weariness] somewhere.

War My Guild · Jun 27, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Paras are not mainly for melee chars (or paras). Depending on how you configure them they can work with casters too using [[They're on Fire], [[Defensive Anthem], [[Aria of Zeal], or [[Aria of Restoration], for example.

I would use a ToF Paragon, SH Ele, and Necro Healer, for a non MM 3-heroes build.

Yes, but I was under the idea that he wanted to know if this specific hero set was for him. Of course pars can be used with any proffession, but the builds listed on page one are mainly for melee or para human players.