Curse

XDeadboltX · Apr 22, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

[build name="SY Ranger" prof=R/W marksmanship=12+1 expertise=12+1][distracting shot][Save yourselves][Triple Shot][dual shot][Glass Arrows][for great justice][dwarven stability][lightning reflexes][/build]

Might have to try this. Havent really used GA's much but that looks fun.

shru · Apr 22, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Working with the ranger I've found that the core of that build works extremely well, and that the elite can be swapped due to personal preference.
Infuriating heat allows you to drop FGJ and maintain a perm 100% adrin gain (and while it also benefits your two paragons, it's a double edged sword as it also effects enemies).
Barrage can help adrin gain if you can find bunched targets, but is not as reliable as trip/dual for SY spam.
And ofc Glass arrows adds HUGE amounts of damage on top of your already stellar package based damage. (with orders and glass, triple shot effectively deal over 100 armor ignoring damage. A huge plus when dealing with high level HM enemes)

I've tried with other elites, but nothing is realy as effective as the three I listed here. BHA is uneeded with a stunning striker, BA with the para's burning shouts, and prep shot because the energy used is just so minimal that a zealous bow string would be a better option.
Nothing else would realy make sense, inless someone else could point out a better ranger or warrior elite to take on that bar.

- Tain - · Apr 22, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Also, wouldn't the energy returned from Paragon shouts be greater? With more energy, you can also use TNTF more often right?

Being able to use TNTF more often, would be the main purpose of throwing in a MM+Gfte. The side benefits are also nice.

Furthermore, if you have Barbs, Weaken Armor, or Splinter Weapon from among your heroes, wouldn't those help the minions too as well as yourself as a paragon?

If you can't hit TNTF on recharge, you aren't SY-ing enough. SY is emanage on crack. Aside from that, most shouts affect party members rather than allies, and require skill usage to trigger. So no, minions don't really synergize well with paragons. Minion damage is also pathetic - especially in HM - and you can't control their targeting.

Racthoh · Apr 23, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

Infuriating heat allows you to drop FGJ and maintain a perm 100% adrin gain (and while it also benefits your two paragons, it's a double edged sword as it also effects enemies).

So Infuriating Heat didn't attract the enemy's attention? I have been tempted to try using it as it does allow the main bar to be shaken up. Also having the other physicals with the 100% gain is tempting.

DarkSpirit · Apr 23, 2008, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Tain -

If you can't hit TNTF on recharge, you aren't SY-ing enough. SY is emanage on crack. Aside from that, most shouts affect party members rather than allies, and require skill usage to trigger. So no, minions don't really synergize well with paragons. Minion damage is also pathetic - especially in HM - and you can't control their targeting.

But SY takes double the adrenaline to trigger than Gfte.

Actually I find minions to be very useful in HM both to soak up damage and to deal damage with barbs and splinter weapon. What small damage you may think 1 minion does, you can multiply it by 10 since each MM can have a max of 10 minions.

Shaz · Apr 23, 2008, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

But SY takes double the adrenaline to trigger than Gfte.

Actually I find minions to be very useful in HM both to soak up damage and to deal damage with barbs and splinter weapon. What small damage you may think 1 minion does, you can multiply it by 10 since each MM can have a max of 10 minions.

True but GFTE have a recharge time, where as SY does not. You shouldn't have any problem hitting TNTF on recharge really or energy problem. But if you do, like me sometime because I am bad and haven't play my paragon in awhile, just switch to your staff set hit TNTF then switch back to your spear set again if you feel that TNTF going up at that point is important.

Minion shouldn't help your energy any as most do not affect allies(none on the imbagon bar). You are usually in 8man party anyway and max energy you get at 12 leadership is 6, so even if most does affect allies, most of the time minions won't really add to it. Minions is great in PvE for sure, but their damage is too random, focused damage is better. If a build is too fragile, like without a SY or something, then minions is good to take some of the damage and pressure off but I don't recommend a MM in this build.

DarkSpirit · Apr 23, 2008, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

True but GFTE have a recharge time, where as SY does not. You shouldn't have any problem hitting TNTF on recharge really or energy problem. But if you do, like me sometime because I am bad and haven't play my paragon in awhile, just switch to your staff set hit TNTF then switch back to your spear set again if you feel that TNTF going up at that point is important.

Minion shouldn't help your energy any as most do not affect allies(none on the imbagon bar). You are usually in 8man party anyway and max energy you get at 12 leadership is 6, so even if most does affect allies, most of the time minions won't really add to it. Minions is great in PvE for sure, but their damage is too random, focused damage is better. If a build is too fragile, like without a SY or something, then minions is good to take some of the damage and pressure off but I don't recommend a MM in this build.

I dont like the suggestion of weapon switching to a staff just to cast TNTF, you need to switch back to a spear to attack and be at 0 energy for awhile. Minions have the side benefit of Gfte and unfortunately, focused damage doesn't always work out well for me against some foes and damn Melonni keeps running when being chased rather than casting Dark Fury. SY doesn't protect my Paragon either and Mhenlo alone cant seem to keep up with the healings at times.

For the of sake Barbs, Splinter Weapon, and weaken armor, I find myself changing to a triple necro build at times, replacing Melonni with a more useful N/Rt and a MM would boost their soul reaping energy significantly too.

Shaz · Apr 23, 2008, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I dont like the suggestion of weapon switching to a staff just to cast TNTF, you need to switch back to a spear to attack and be at 0 energy for awhile.

Weapon switching is good, for any profession. Yes, you will most likely be at 0e, but a few SY should get you back into the flow again. So what if you stop using your attack skills for a few seconds, TNTF being up was obviously more important otherwise you wouldn't have switch in the first place. You shouldn't need to do this a lot btw, I was only recommending this because you say you want to have TNTF on more often.

DarkSpirit · Apr 23, 2008, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

Weapon switching is good, for any profession. Yes, you will most likely be at 0e, but a few SY should get you back into the flow again. So what if you stop using your attack skills for a few seconds, TNTF being up was obviously more important otherwise you wouldn't have switch in the first place. You shouldn't need to do this a lot btw, I was only recommending this because you say you want to have TNTF on more often.

Relying on Melonni to pump out Dark Fury can be frustrating sometimes and she is a single point of failure. If I dont get to cast SY often enough, my energy also goes down and people start to die. Maybe switching to a staff is still useful as a last resort, but that means I would be in a situation that I wouldn't want to be in the first place.

Minions are useful in a sense that, as long as the MM is alive, and as long as there are corpses lying around, you would get to build up your army again so even if you are in a bad situation (i.e. SY not firing up frequent enough and low on energy), you still have a chance to turn that situation around. So, I dont see why having a MM is a bad idea even with SY on my bar.

Yes, there are places in PvE that gave this standard 1+2 paragon+1 D/N group big problems, but when I switch out just 1 Paragon with a MM, everything seems to work out so smoothly. It is amazing! Maybe with all the meat shields, Melonni is finally able to do her job rather than keep running away from AoE attacks and healing herself constantly.

shru · Apr 23, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

So Infuriating Heat didn't attract the enemy's attention? I have been tempted to try using it as it does allow the main bar to be shaken up. Also having the other physicals with the 100% gain is tempting.

Like all important spirits, you'll have to be carefull about placement, but I always set it back a bit so I've yet to have a problem with it.
[distracting shot][save yourselves][triple shot][dual shot][read the wind][infuriating heat][dwarven stability][lightning reflexes]
In the last few days I've used GA less and less, and IF more and more. With your dual paragons, IF just helps so much, and the bonus the enemies recieve is so negligible that I'm running it almost exclusively. Hell, it even turns devona into a knocklock machine.

DarkSpirit · Apr 23, 2008, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

Like all important spirits, you'll have to be carefull about placement, but I always set it back a bit so I've yet to have a problem with it.
[distracting shot][save yourselves][triple shot][dual shot][read the wind][infuriating heat][dwarven stability][lightning reflexes]
In the last few days I've used GA less and less, and IF more and more. With your dual paragons, IF just helps so much, and the bonus the enemies recieve is so negligible that I'm running it almost exclusively. Hell, it even turns devona into a knocklock machine.

Looks interesting, I would try this out since my Melonni is pissing me off sometimes. I will adapt this for my hero. Thanks shru.

XDeadboltX · Apr 23, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I just noticed, no [ebon battle standard of honor] but i suppose double adren makes up for it. Do you think its worth replacing ["For great justice"] on the paragons? Not sure what with though.

Edit:nvm, i just thought 'wtf why does morghan have FGJ anyway' . Must have been my brother messing around with him.

shru · Apr 23, 2008, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by XDeadboltX

I just noticed, no [ebon battle standard of honor] but i suppose double adren makes up for it. Do you think its worth replacing ["For great justice"] on the paragons? Not sure what with though.

Edit:nvm, i just thought 'wtf why does morghan have FGJ anyway' . Must have been my brother messing around with him.

>< forgot about battle standard, try this:
[build name="SY Ranger" prof=R/W marksmanship=12 expertise=12][distracting shot][save yourselves][triple shot][dual shot][rapid fire][ebon battle standard of honor][infuriating heat][resurrection signet][/build]You're a little more vulnerable due to the lack lightning reflexes, and you'll have to use a recurve bow to guarantee your arrows a hit, but with perm IAS and battle standard, your team should fare better.

And if you're puting IF on a hero, be sure to micro its placement, as they won't set it unti'll actualy in battle, a very bad position for it.

Racthoh · Apr 23, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Minions have the side benefit of Gfte and unfortunately, focused damage doesn't always work out well for me against some foes and damn Melonni keeps running when being chased rather than casting Dark Fury.

How much health does Melonni have?

Quote:

Maybe switching to a staff is still useful as a last resort, but that means I would be in a situation that I wouldn't want to be in the first place.

I frequently weapon swap if I've found myself in a situation where I've used my attack skills too much and I need to borrow energy because TNTF/FA is about to recharge. Consider that there will be situations where both are recharging at about the same time, having 25 energy available on a 30 base character is not a guarentee.

DarkSpirit · Apr 24, 2008, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

How much health does Melonni have?

I frequently weapon swap if I've found myself in a situation where I've used my attack skills too much and I need to borrow energy because TNTF/FA is about to recharge. Consider that there will be situations where both are recharging at about the same time, having 25 energy available on a 30 base character is not a guarentee.

She has 560hp with a minor rune (yes I am cheap and getting poor investing in my heroes)

I would try the staff. Thanks.

Mr Pink57 · Apr 26, 2008, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Your diskettes go back to this thread....

pink

minaau · Apr 26, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

I've just looked on this thread (haven't read all 11 pages) and my Paragon doesn't have R10 Vanguard. What is the best replacement for the Battle Standard of Honour until I do have R10?

For Morgahn do I use the "Main" build or "4-Man" build?

Naylyn · Apr 27, 2008, 05:20 AM // 05:20

I use EBSoH even though I don't have r10 yet, it's still good. Besides you should be aiming for r10 asap if you want to use this all the time.

You use the main build for most of the time and the 4 man build for the early game areas where you can only have 4 people.

Marverick · Apr 27, 2008, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

Dual and Triple shot are not energy intensive by themselves with a good investment in expertise, but the point of that build was to use Expert's Dexterity to be able to spam them with a 3 second recharge. That with dark fury and FGJ means a perma SY with relative ease.

But the problem I face is that with Expert’s Dexterity, the only energy skill I can use on my bar becomes triple shot. (It costs 11 energy at 14 exp, and 8 with a zealous bow) Spamming that every 3-4 seconds ends up at costing 4-6 energy regen, throwing that build completely out the window.

The Barrage build, on the other hand, does work with a zealous bow, and can maintain SY fairly effectively. And I've been toying with other various ideas, but as far as I can see, with atleast 13 in expertise, a build that has [skill]Triple shot[/skill] [skill]dual shot[/skill] [skill]FGJ[/skill] [skill]dark fury[/skill] should be able to maintain SY as a ranger.

Edit:
After toying around, this build wrecks with Racthoh's hero setup:[build name="SY Ranger" prof=R/W marksmanship=12+1 expertise=12+1][distracting shot][Save yourselves][Triple Shot][dual shot][Glass Arrows][for great justice][dwarven stability][lightning reflexes][/build]There's no energy problems (I used a zealous bow, but it works with vamp too), the damage is great, SY is up 95% of the time (enemies dodging can screw you, so pick a target that's not likely to move much), and it has decent survivability being in the midline with Lightning Reflexes up 2/3 of the time.

Try

[skill]Expert's Dexterity[/skill][skill]"Save Yourselves!"[/skill][skill]Triple Shot[/skill][skill]Body Shot[/skill][skill]Dwarven Stability[/skill][skill]Lightning Reflexes[/skill][skill]"For Great Justice![/skill]

16 Expertise, 13 Marks

At 16 the energy cost is 9, 6 with a zealous bow. Body Shot is a net +5 energy gain as long as someone else in the party can supply cracked armor (stick [skill]Weaken Armor[/skill] on someone). So basically you can spam the two skills back to back with only a minor pause to recast Expert's Dexterity.

Mr Pink57 · Apr 27, 2008, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by minaau

I've just looked on this thread (haven't read all 11 pages) and my Paragon doesn't have R10 Vanguard. What is the best replacement for the Battle Standard of Honour until I do have R10?

For Morgahn do I use the "Main" build or "4-Man" build?

Minimum I'd go with is r8 on vanguard, but in its place you can take I Am The Strongest if you have a higher norn rank. Or even try something like Don't Trip should get energy back due to being a shout.

pink