Curse

Daesu · Apr 13, 2011, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Yes, when played by you. Unfortunately, this doesn't make it better in the hands of everyone else (when compared to S/M/D).

I don't see why a good build must necessarily work ONLY for the creator and not for everyone else. There are so many builds that can work better than SMD even without micro managing your heroes.

Discordway is a relic of the 3-heroes limitation past, now with 7 heroes the possibilities are much greater. After the 7 heroes update, dervish updates, and mesmer updates, it is time to explore new possibilities instead of holding on to past limitations for the feeling of security.

Quote:

Honestly, it's all a giant fustercluck. The information gathered is too erratic to really mean anything. I'm all for S/M/D; in my experience, it's faster (than Mo/Para/MM or whatever your choice variant is). However, that doesn't mean that S/M/D isn't closer to something better fitting my playstyle than Mo/Para/MM (or whatever), explaining the discrepancy. The most that can be said about it is that it's one of the more effective no-effort builds available; it has some pretty sweet returns regardless of play style or player build.

I think the information gathered is pretty clear. ALL the SMD attempts have been slower than many other builds (some even done without micro) in Raisu HM. So much so that most of the regular SMD supporters shy away from the challenge.

Granted that there is no way we could have tested SMD against every other alternative builds in every pve areas. But the results from a typical mission, after several attempts by different people, is good enough of an indicator.

Quote:

Bottom line, there really isn't an answer. There is no way to gather the information on a large enough controlled player base to make any conclusions. All we know is that Mesmers are buckets of amazing and you should have as many of them as possible in your party. :P

Actually there are a lot more evidence and experiments supporting the fact that SMD is NOT the best possible 7 heroes backline than there are supporting merc mesmers teams. At least I have not seen any thread encouraging people to post timings and screenshots to compare against teams consisting of 4 to 5 mesmer heroes, without the use of cons.

AndroBubbles · Apr 14, 2011, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Yes, when played by you. Unfortunately, this doesn't make it better in the hands of everyone else (when compared to S/M/D).

Honestly, it's all a giant fustercluck. The information gathered is too erratic to really mean anything. I'm all for S/M/D; in my experience, it's faster (than Mo/Para/MM or whatever your choice variant is). However, that doesn't mean that S/M/D isn't closer to something better fitting my playstyle than Mo/Para/MM (or whatever), explaining the discrepancy. The most that can be said about it is that it's one of the more effective no-effort builds available; it has some pretty sweet returns regardless of play style or player build.

Bottom line, there really isn't an answer. There is no way to gather the information on a large enough controlled player base to make any conclusions. All we know is that Mesmers are buckets of amazing and you should have as many of them as possible in your party. :P

You're dodging the point. There is most certainly a way to objectively obtain this kind of information; it's already been done. SMD is decent, and I'm not saying that people who play it are going to perform badly, but there are already 7-hero builds that have been consistently demonstrated to be more efficient in general play, and that is what we are discussing. We aren't trying to decide whether it works or not for most people; we already know it does.

Kaida the Heartless · Apr 14, 2011, 06:46 AM // 06:46

@Daesu:
Perhaps I miscommunicated. A good build must work for the general populace, not a specific player. And you are correct in saying there are better builds, but these builds are generally run by the elite few and go over most people's heads. They simply don't have the expertise to run a more complicated build better.

All the attempts that have been logged where XWay was playing against SMD were done by the elite few mentioned above. Of course SMD is going to be slower when those players are running their custom party. The SMD supporters didn't shy away from the challenge, they simply aren't in the "elite-enough" crowd to care if one build is 2 minutes faster/better. Hence, there was a lack of support/attendance.

Also, according to the scientific method, testing these builds on one or two missions is NOT a conclusive way to gain results. The playing field would have to be much broader than that to take anything valuable away from it. Besides, it's hard to factor in player skill, preference, class, and build; that's basically incalculable. How do we know how much they are contributing to the success of the party?

@Andro:
I disagree. This information has not been obtained (see above). Those builds that are demonstrated to be "better" are the ones run by the elite few. Do you really think Jeydra's Invokeway is going to work as well on a Warrior? It's better for Jeydra, but not for "everyone". It'd be like having a quantum car that travels at mach 3 and goes through objects, but requires a degree in quantum physics to operate. Heck yea it's better, but most of us are probably going to drive a regular car a lot better.

Ultimately, what works for "most" people is going to define what is "better".

Azazello · Apr 14, 2011, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

these builds are generally run by the elite few and go over most people's heads. They simply don't have the expertise to run a more complicated build better.

I don't think that this comment really addresses what he was saying, which is that several of the builds outperforming DSM were being run without micro. It doesn't really matter how 'elite' someone is at GW in such a case.

On the other hand, after running the Raisu test a few times, I have to say that it's not an ideal area for testing. You can get away with very little defense in there, but when you move your build to an elite area, you may find it underperforming significantly. It's not a bad area if you're testing a build for general vanquishing though I suppose.

My opinion on the actual subject at hand is that just about anything is better than discord for damage. Spending over half your time and more than your natural energy regen spamming discord for 30 dps on single targets is flat out horrible, and it requires setup time to even get to that point. That doesn't mean there's a better DPS skill to run on a defensive bar (although I personally think there are several, and most of them aren't even elite), it just means discord isn't something you'd call a powerful offensive spell.

I mean, not even the OP tries to maintain that discord is the best part of discordway. He's talking about minions, prots, heals, and death nova, all of which I think everyone will happily agree are great in PvE, even if minionbombers are a bit slow for some peoples taste. Discord is for finishing up stragglers, in his own words.

The only relevant information in the whole post is 'if you bring at least 3 defensive bars, you'll be able to handle a lot more guys coming at you from multiple directions, although it'll be slow'. Well... duh.

Daesu · Apr 14, 2011, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

@Daesu:
Perhaps I miscommunicated. A good build must work for the general populace, not a specific player. And you are correct in saying there are better builds, but these builds are generally run by the elite few and go over most people's heads. They simply don't have the expertise to run a more complicated build better.

All the attempts that have been logged where XWay was playing against SMD were done by the elite few mentioned above. Of course SMD is going to be slower when those players are running their custom party. The SMD supporters didn't shy away from the challenge, they simply aren't in the "elite-enough" crowd to care if one build is 2 minutes faster/better. Hence, there was a lack of support/attendance.

Also, according to the scientific method, testing these builds on one or two missions is NOT a conclusive way to gain results. The playing field would have to be much broader than that to take anything valuable away from it. Besides, it's hard to factor in player skill, preference, class, and build; that's basically incalculable. How do we know how much they are contributing to the success of the party?

I wouldn't ever consider myself as a member of the "elite few", but I agree with you why it is important not to micro my heroes during the challenge to find a better "general" build than SMD. With my build, I could complete it in 10:02 without micro but my main character is a rit and my team is less defensive than most SMD builds that I have seen, probably due to Mhenlo and Danika being present to offset it.

Of those who claimed to have tested with SMD, I have not seen one SMD entry that beats this time. My own attempts using SMD has always been 12+. Since I tested both builds without micro, player skill should be the same.

So yes, we could try different missions to confirm this, but I do hate the long ones like GoM and Hell's precipice. My build also borrows heavily from the "meta" and the ideas of the "elite few" like Jeydra, EFGJack, and others, so it is hardly original.

Vallen · Apr 14, 2011, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Man I hate these discordway threads, if you want to fail at GW just go right on ahead and fail cause we dont care.

Yes, discordway will beat most of the game and yes its easy to use but builds that are harder to use, require more skill and micro management will ALWAYS be faster than discordway.

Discordway exists so that casual/shit players or weekend warriors can play HM, end of.

Daesu · Apr 14, 2011, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen

Man I hate these discordway threads, if you want to fail at GW just go right on ahead and fail cause we dont care.

Yes, discordway will beat most of the game and yes its easy to use but builds that are harder to use, require more skill and micro management will ALWAYS be faster than discordway.

Discordway exists so that casual/shit players or weekend warriors can play HM, end of.

Yes builds that are harder to use and require more skill and micro management are expected to be faster.

But the point we are making is, Discordway is not even the best build for casual players.