Curse

Kaida the Heartless · Apr 05, 2011, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Too bad it was observed that the only people that ran SMD were non-SMD players (in an act of faith) because the real SMD players didn't show. You can pull whatever meaning from that you want.

"Furthermore, your idea of the current meta build makeup is wrong. The meta may or may not include a paragon, depending on who you asked."
So my idea of Meta is wrong depending on who I ask? Thanks for stating the obvious. I don't suppose you've taken the time to go around PM'ing people? Most players that are VQ'ing are running an "Incomming!"/"Fallback!" Paragon with AoE and "GftE!". Hence, I stuck it as Meta because it's STILL more common than your 2xN 1xE or any other variant.

And just because you can run a build better than Discord doesn't mean that it's actually better. Better is defined by the masses. Stick your build on 100 Joe-Schmoe's and they will probably run it worse than they would run a Discord build. I said it once, I'll say it again "Good players are going to run different builds better because they are more suited to their play style."

Lanier · Apr 05, 2011, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

"Good players are going to run different builds better because they are more suited to their play style."

100% truth. There is never going to be a "best" build because different players will run different builds at different efficiency levels.

NerfHerder · Apr 05, 2011, 05:34 AM // 05:34

This thread should be changed to "Why 2-3 Mesmers and 1-2 Rts is the best possible 7 hero backline for Discordway"

Daesu · Apr 05, 2011, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Too bad it was observed that the only people that ran SMD were non-SMD players (in an act of faith) because the real SMD players didn't show. You can pull whatever meaning from that you want.

I take it that most people who run SMD backed down from the challenge because SMD just doesn't match up.

Quote:

And just because you can run a build better than Discord doesn't mean that it's actually better. Better is defined by the masses. Stick your build on 100 Joe-Schmoe's and they will probably run it worse than they would run a Discord build. I said it once, I'll say it again "Good players are going to run different builds better because they are more suited to their play style."

Better is defined by the masses? Then what made you so sure that Discordway has a better DPS than meta, you interviewed the masses?

Discordway is just a reminisce of the old 3-heroes system when you dont need to micro your heroes for an effective build. With 7 heroes, there are now lots of better builds with higher DPS and better prots than S/M/D, that almost anyone can use without micro either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

This thread should be changed to "Why 2-3 Mesmers and 1-2 Rts is the best possible 7 hero backline for Discordway"

QFT.

AndroBubbles · Apr 06, 2011, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Dude, Jeydra ran 4 Ele's. That wasn't anything close to meta and we all know Jeydra isn't your average player either. Good players are going to run different builds better because they are more suited to their play style, and Jeydra demonstrated that.

Discord is still faster than Mex2,Rtx2,Px1,Mox1,Ex1 because it is less defensive. DoA is about the only place in this game that you need to worry about strengthening your backline. I even stated this and you still try to use it in your defense.

And Andro, I'm arguing that 3 Discords are going to out-damage a Paragon, MM, and Monk. Each Discord also doesn't have to be healer, as I stated when saying that the best choice would probably N/Mo, N/Rt, and a N/P. Apparently you skipped over that as well.

When you enter a thread talking about sets of Meta builds and join the conversation, people are going to assume you are speaking about the same unless you say so otherwise. Specialized builds are going to be better when run by decent players (i.e. Jeydra's "Invokeway", if you will). Thats a herpa-derp given. Discord is still superior over Mo/P/N.

Discord actually works better with out the trashy Rits. I'm tempted to run a 3xNecro 4x Mesmer party with myself running the Spirit Spam. The biggest issue is I can't decide if that's going to be a better option than say, 2xBackline 6xMes, or even 1xUA 7xMes.

The thread title begs to differ with much of what you are now claiming to argue. I don't think anybody else here misunderstood what I was saying; that I can make a build that's better than discordway, regardless of whether or not it's meta. I would also certainly hope that the meta build is the best option for efficacy, so are you now calling the meta bad? At any rate, the only thing you've come close to correctly asserting is that discord is better than Mo/P/N. You have yet to address the community's findings that discord is subpar in comparison to other hero builds, and again, this is regardless of whether or not they are "meta."

I'm not strengthening my backline by only running one healer with layers of defense, I'm strengthening my team.

Kaida the Heartless · Apr 07, 2011, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Discord is subpar to players that have been playing long enough to effectively make sound skill bar decisions. It's natural that they are going to play better because they are adapting their entire team to their (experienced) play style. That doesn't mean that their build is "better" overall. Discord is still one of the most effective options available until Ele's become a bit more Hero-friendly on a non-Jeydra level. :P

Daesu, I've run both builds and can tell you from experience that SMD has more damage where its needed.

Daesu · Apr 08, 2011, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Daesu, I've run both builds and can tell you from experience that SMD has more damage where its needed.

Then why does my SMD build consistently kill slower than my 'meta' build, even without micro for both of them?

Perhaps my choice of SMD is inferior, maybe you should post your SMD build then we can test it.

Kaida the Heartless · Apr 10, 2011, 06:47 AM // 06:47

What do you run on yourself? I run spirit spam N/Rt; this may be a contributor to our differences.

Coast · Apr 10, 2011, 07:21 AM // 07:21

whats smd?
i don't wiki or pug

Calista Blackblood · Apr 10, 2011, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

whats smd?
i don't wiki or pug

Spirits,Mesmers,Discord

Coast · Apr 10, 2011, 10:07 AM // 10:07

ah ok ty, I usualy run a panic with my discords, must been smd,lol

Daesu · Apr 11, 2011, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

What do you run on yourself? I run spirit spam N/Rt; this may be a contributor to our differences.

I am not ready to share out my build yet as I am still tweaking/experimenting on it. What is your best time for Raisu HM without celetial skill, cons, or micro, taking Cynn and Danika?

Laylat · Apr 11, 2011, 06:15 AM // 06:15

I have recently been playing a warrior and have never used discord heroes. I prefer to rush in buffed with SoH and PS, have barbs and MoP cast on target and AoE the crap out of mobs with HB and WW. Point is, by the time enemies have conditions and/or bedew on them, they are almost dead and thus makes discord useless. Second, enemies tend to activate skills less when under pressure. Less actions by enemies means less damage you take. Seriously, spiking enemies one by one is not efficient. AoE confuses the he'll out of mobs.

AndroBubbles · Apr 12, 2011, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Discord is subpar to players that have been playing long enough to effectively make sound skill bar decisions. It's natural that they are going to play better because they are adapting their entire team to their (experienced) play style. That doesn't mean that their build is "better" overall. Discord is still one of the most effective options available until Ele's become a bit more Hero-friendly on a non-Jeydra level. :P

Daesu, I've run both builds and can tell you from experience that SMD has more damage where its needed.

If I'm making more sound skill bar decisions, isn't my build going to be better?

UnChosen · Apr 13, 2011, 12:59 AM // 00:59

People tends to forget that switching builds actually takes time.

Sure, a customized build would enable me to complete a certain area 3 minutes faster, but if I spent 5 minutes adjusting my skill bars and attribute points, buying and salvaging runes, and changing hero equipments...then a "universal" build like DMS would still win in total efficiency.

byteme! · Apr 13, 2011, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

People tends to forget that switching builds actually takes time.

Sure, a customized build would enable me to complete a certain area 3 minutes faster, but if I spent 5 minutes adjusting my skill bars and attribute points, buying and salvaging runes, and changing hero equipments...then a "universal" build like DMS would still win in total efficiency.

/Thread

Shhhhhhhhh don't spoil it for these guys. Theorycraft commence!

Haggis of Doom · Apr 13, 2011, 02:09 AM // 02:09

^You're basically saying that people who run DMS are either:

- lazy (fine by me)
- unable to make efficient team builds (they can learn)
- bad and unwilling to improve (booo)

There is such as a thing as an "universal" build that is better than DMS. There are many, many such setups, in fact. It's quite clear why so many people like DMS: if laziness has led them to run DMS, it's not a stretch that the same laziness meant they haven't bothered to look past the first pvx meta build that works. DMS isn't about being "universal", it's about being accessible. And pardon the guru pve forums, whose primary goal is to let people discuss builds, find it lame to use the first available one that's not even optimal.

Not to mention half the fun of GW is to make builds.

Daesu · Apr 13, 2011, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

People tends to forget that switching builds actually takes time.

Sure, a customized build would enable me to complete a certain area 3 minutes faster, but if I spent 5 minutes adjusting my skill bars and attribute points, buying and salvaging runes, and changing hero equipments...then a "universal" build like DMS would still win in total efficiency.

Sure, but there are now many more "universal" builds that are more efficient than DMS.

samuelchoo · Apr 13, 2011, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Well, I just enjoy S/D/M because it's easy. Just call targets with an AP Caller and kill things fast. I don't really want to tweak my build all the time and really, if I have to cast something for two seconds, it makes me sad. While using this build... I can just half screen GW and watch a movie on the other half while pressing tab, ctrl 1+2, and q+e for fall back. Seems like elementalist's can do things pretty fast as well. Guess it's worth a try making something new :O

Kaida the Heartless · Apr 13, 2011, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

If I'm making more sound skill bar decisions, isn't my build going to be better?

Yes, when played by you. Unfortunately, this doesn't make it better in the hands of everyone else (when compared to S/M/D).

Honestly, it's all a giant fustercluck. The information gathered is too erratic to really mean anything. I'm all for S/M/D; in my experience, it's faster (than Mo/Para/MM or whatever your choice variant is). However, that doesn't mean that S/M/D isn't closer to something better fitting my playstyle than Mo/Para/MM (or whatever), explaining the discrepancy. The most that can be said about it is that it's one of the more effective no-effort builds available; it has some pretty sweet returns regardless of play style or player build.

Bottom line, there really isn't an answer. There is no way to gather the information on a large enough controlled player base to make any conclusions. All we know is that Mesmers are buckets of amazing and you should have as many of them as possible in your party. :P