Curse

Wenspire · Apr 15, 2011, 03:20 AM // 03:20

I think things have gone off the main topic. It's not a matter of how fast you can clear the test area. I think it's more of being able to do it with relative ease, thus verifying (to yourself) your group setup as a stable one.

Again, I don't think it should be any form of competition. It would just go towards the OP's intent: to answer the question of how well your build would work before you post anything for suggestions.

Just my $0.02...

Chthon · Apr 15, 2011, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

A lot of those are easily achievable by people who heroway. People use tactics for enemy placement, micro-ing etc to achieve those.

1. Raisu HM is barely hard, any standard team build can clear it fine.
2. Double aggro is not reflective of PvE HM in general.
3. Double boss aggro is also doable if you use the walls wisely.
4. Vloxen HM clearance depends on player tactics. Many different team builds can clear it, I have done melee-way (with SY on war) and fragway (without SY on mes). Even pure spiritway with frozen soil is more than enough to overwhelm the summits.

I think perhaps you missed the point. The idea is to prevent people from posting crap builds all over the hero forum by encouraging a minimum level of testing before things get posted. These tests do not have to be super hard because we're not looking for the "best" build -- just trying to weed out the crappy ones.

Towards that end, I suggested Raisu HM (cynn, danika, no celestial skill) in under 11 minutes because 10:XX was the fastest time anyone posted using BDSM in the challenge thread. The idea being that anything worse than BDSM should not be posted in a "hey everyone, here's a strong build" thread.

I already criticized the choice of those two particular mobs, but I don't think it's so far off that it can't be part of a multi-part test.

Most boss double aggros are nothing, but I was talking about Sunreach+Mistwarden in particular. Sunreach's mob is really brutal on its own; Mistwarden just adds pressure; and the narrow spaces funnel your heroes into nasty AoE. (And note that I stated just Sunreach as the primary test. That's a hard enough mob on its own to earn not-crap status.)

Daesu · Apr 15, 2011, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I think things have gone off the main topic. It's not a matter of how fast you can clear the test area. I think it's more of being able to do it with relative ease, thus verifying (to yourself) your group setup as a stable one.

I disagree, you can simply put LOTS of healing and protection and wear out most mobs, without a healer, with your little damage. But that doesn't necessarily mean that is a good build.

Wenspire · Apr 15, 2011, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Hence why I said "being able to do it with relative ease". Obviously, if the encounter is taking an extremely long time, something is wrong with the setup.

Azazello · Apr 15, 2011, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

A lot of those are easily achievable by people who heroway. People use tactics for enemy placement, micro-ing etc to achieve those.

1. Raisu HM is barely hard, any standard team build can clear it fine.
2. Double aggro is not reflective of PvE HM in general.
3. Double boss aggro is also doable if you use the walls wisely.
4. Vloxen HM clearance depends on player tactics. Many different team builds can clear it, I have done melee-way (with SY on war) and fragway (without SY on mes). Even pure spiritway with frozen soil is more than enough to overwhelm the summits.

Sub 11minutes Raisu HM is actually fairly challenging for a team build that can also survive this double pull outside rata sum without casualties. My best raisu so far is 10:17 (although, in my defense, I've been running it without any skills on my bar to test the actual hero builds), and that team took two casualties when fighting this pull.

Even if you feel that any standard team can do a sub 11 minute raisu and handle this pull fine, that still doesn't preclude them from being valid baseline tests. You don't set the bar so high that its like qualifying for the olympics, you set it just high enough so that people can avoid wasting everyones time with clearly junk builds.

greenough · Apr 15, 2011, 05:02 AM // 05:02

keep seeing these threads about people saying this build does this and that build does that, and this one is better or faster. its not the builds its the players and tactics used by the players. I've tried different builds in elite areas and they usually yield the same results because i use the same tactics.

City Mesway - 22 mintues
http://postimage.org/image/tqeje6ck/

City Discord - 22 minutes
http://postimage.org/image/tqrroyas/

Full Doa Mesway - 1:44
http://postimage.org/image/tr1ox19g/

Full Doa Discord - 1:50
http://postimage.org/image/trn6wjok/

Thommis Discord - 8 mins
http://postimage.org/image/325f3s004/

Thommis Random Mes's - 8 mins
http://postimage.org/image/325ieuozo/

And for people who say casters are at a disadvantage because they can't use SY

Thommis/Rand With SY - 21
http://postimage.org/image/ttzjb8v8/

Thommis/Rand Without SY - 22
http://postimage.org/image/tu2udxus/

all done with little to no micro, just fs in Slavers and prot spirit for veil in Doa.

you can sit there and argue over what build is better or where the best place to test is or how exactly to test but it doesn't matter, there can be so many different combination of builds that run the same time in the same area there isn't a best build or a best way to test it, it all depends on the player.

Daesu · Apr 15, 2011, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Hence why I said "being able to do it with relative ease". Obviously, if the encounter is taking an extremely long time, something is wrong with the setup.

"being able to do it with relative ease" is too ambiguous to be used as a rule and can be interpreted differently. You could be swinging away at your enemies for the last 5 minutes before they drop dead but your healers can be keeping your entire team at full health "with relative ease".

The definition should be concise, kill x mob with y parameters within z minutes. What is considered fast enough to one person may be too slow to another.

Azazello · Apr 15, 2011, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenough

keep seeing these threads about people saying this build does this and that build does that, and this one is better or faster. its not the builds its the players and tactics used by the players. I've tried different builds in elite areas and they usually yield the same results because i use the same tactics.

you can sit there and argue over what build is better or where the best place to test is or how exactly to test but it doesn't matter, there can be so many different combination of builds that run the same time in the same area there isn't a best build or a best way to test it, it all depends on the player.

Firstly I would ask why you're not modifying your tactics to suit the build you're running, but I think the more important thing to take note of is how much experience you have running each build. I notice you run discord a lot, how long have you been doing that? Longer than something like mesway I would guess. Which one do you think you should get a better time with in such a case?

However, getting back on topic, you're actually reinforcing the reason why this idea was suggested. Grab a few random builds from the front page and try to post similar times with them. Half of them won't even complete the areas you posted, let alone in similar time, and no amount of player tactics will change that.

Chthon · Apr 15, 2011, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

You don't set the bar so high that its like qualifying for the olympics, you set it just high enough so that people can avoid wasting everyones time with clearly junk builds.

Exactly this.

greenough · Apr 15, 2011, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Firstly I would ask why you're not modifying your tactics to suit the build you're running, but I think the more important thing to take note of is how much experience you have running each build. I notice you run discord a lot, how long have you been doing that? Longer than something like mesway I would guess. Which one do you think you should get a better time with in such a case?

However, getting back on topic, you're actually reinforcing the reason why this idea was suggested. Grab a few random builds from the front page and try to post similar times with them. Half of them won't even complete the areas you posted, let alone in similar time, and no amount of player tactics will change that.

i actually just started playing discord a few days ago (go to the last page of the smd challenge thread) i fail to see how being exp'd in a build will change much, i didn't micro skills, i pulled the same groups, to the same places in the same area's and ended with the same results.

FoxBat · Apr 15, 2011, 07:08 AM // 07:08

I got down to 8:50 Raisu with S/D/M. I was hoping to match triple mesmer at 8:15, figured the builds weren't that different and wanted to prove so, but could not pull it off. Still while there is a significant difference, the difference between the two builds is smaller than the difference between times posted by others. Which is why I agree that interpersonal time comparisons are a poor means for evaluating builds, as player tactics matter more. The gap is wide enough that good play will push a weaker build past a stronger one under poor play.

I mean there were people getting 12 and 14 minutes with the same discord build and you want to set the par around 10? If you want to just test "can I not explode to some dinos" then sure, but holding new posters to some arbitrary time limit will tell you more about the player's ability then whatever build they happen to be running.

Daesu · Apr 15, 2011, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I got down to 8:50 Raisu with S/D/M. I was hoping to match triple mesmer at 8:15, figured the builds weren't that different and wanted to prove so, but could not pull it off. Still while there is a significant difference, the difference between the two builds is smaller than the difference between times posted by others. Which is why I agree that interpersonal time comparisons are a poor means for evaluating builds, as player tactics matter more. The gap is wide enough that good play will push a weaker build past a stronger one under poor play.

I mean there were people getting 12 and 14 minutes with the same discord build and you want to set the par around 10? If you want to just test "can I not explode to some dinos" then sure, but holding new posters to some arbitrary time limit will tell you more about the player's ability then whatever build they happen to be running.

The difference is in the micro management of the heroes and the way you micro. If you don't micro your heroes at all, I doubt you can get close to 8:50 in Raisu HM using S/D/M. Micro versus non micro can make up for as much as 2+ mins.

I have said before, that if you micro your heroes you would give a distorted impression of the build. The way to compare against generic builds like SDM, is to NOT micro your heroes.

It was suppose to be a contest between builds but, as expected, it turned into a bragging thread as some feel the need for others to acknowledge their player "skill" everywhere they post.

Xenomortis · Apr 15, 2011, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

4. Vloxen HM clearance depends on player tactics.

Not really. It takes a bad player to fail Vloxen if they bring a strong build; there's really only one mob that poses a threat (and it's not Bellok).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

Any of the Slavers HM is fine but spawns can vary a bit.

I'm not too concerned about that. A few specific mobs might be different but the overall difficulty and challenge posed is largely constant. I can certainly learn were weaknesses in my build lie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenough

i actually just started playing discord a few days ago (go to the last page of the smd challenge thread) i fail to see how being exp'd in a build will change much, i didn't micro skills, i pulled the same groups, to the same places in the same area's and ended with the same results.

Discord setups tend to be "high-floor, low-ceiling" setups. That is; the minimum of effectiveness is reasonably high, but the peak of effectiveness is lower than that of other setups. One could construct a very powerful setup that required some micro, but then it'd be hard to execute.

chowmein69 · Apr 17, 2011, 03:44 PM // 15:44

i start at dalada uplands walk to the right and agro all the charrs in hm

mage767 · Apr 18, 2011, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by chowmein69

i start at dalada uplands walk to the right and agro all the charrs in hm

That group is hardly challenging.