Curse

mage767 · Apr 14, 2011, 08:18 PM // 20:18

I did as the OP said. Except that the dragons spawned a bit on top of map. So, I went up and aggroed both groups as shown in my screens. It was in HM, me and 3 other heroes died but we killed both grps fast without any wipes. Note; HM shown in last screen, I forgot to move the dervish hero bar.

http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/3206/gw255.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5705/gw256.jpg
http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/192/gw257.jpg
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6864/gw258m.jpg
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/5262/gw259.jpg

+1 cookie for Fragway?

It was just the first attempt. I didn't want to skew the results by repeated trials, but I'm sure it will better in subsequent runs.

Lastly, I didn't even bother to micro the spirits.

Wenspire · Apr 14, 2011, 08:31 PM // 20:31

A fast test would be vloxen lvl1 on that first large stone summit group after the key boss. Easily accessible from vlox's falls. That or 1st group when zoning into thommis (longer because of travel time to dungeon).

For a full test I would say selves.

mage767 · Apr 14, 2011, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

A fast test would be vloxen lvl1 on that first large stone summit group after the key boss. Easily accessible from vlox's falls. That or 1st group when zoning into thommis (longer because of travel time to dungeon).

For a full test I would say selves.

The following screens are on Lvl 1 of Vloxen Exca HM with Fragway. As shown, I killed the first 3 groups before the war boss to raise some minions. I waited for the prisoner group to pass. I then killed the war boss group. The prisoners are now dead and have been raised into minions by the group in the tunnel. So, I proceed down the tunnel and take them head on as shown.

Screens:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/8348/gw262f.jpg
http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/2473/gw263.jpg
http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/2970/gw264.jpg
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3388/gw265.jpg
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/3495/gw266.jpg
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4240/gw267.jpg

Note:
- Actually, I cannot explain why I have 7% morale boost, and my heroes got 9%.

- Again, no flagging of heroes, spirit microing, skill microing etc etc. Just play natural and focus FD + fragility on key targets.

- I didn't even bother to take frozen soil. They ressed a few times, but I took them out again

Obviously, when I am serious, I will take FS.

+2 cookie for fragway?

Groth · Apr 14, 2011, 08:57 PM // 20:57

I like this sort of discourse. I believe this to be an excellent idea.

All things measurable should be weighted against a standard by which it

is given meaning.

To Clarify: (I hope) Some Suggestions for simple Criteria are as

follows...

Solo Builds: are easily measured against existing farm locations so I

presume this is not the intended scope of this thread > thus it is

excluded.

The Measuring Stick

Team Builds:
I. Criteria:

Hard Mode, 6 Heroes Minimum (often pairs play together) recommend

"optional human" placed next to substitutable hero, Location. no more

than 1 rezone for testing. Statement (Micro/NoMicro)[hero management]

1.) Micro Manage should be defined hence forth as anything more than

pre-casting an enchant prior to battle for each hero. I believe this

is easily managed and requires little effort. Any manual use of hero

skills (other than flagging) while in combat is thus considered micro-

management as a simple standard.

2.) Player [Human] type, Front, Mid, Backline - should probably also be

stated unless the hero composition is intended to combat without the

aid of the player.

a.) Team builds designed to function sans player combat and merely

as direction (via flags) should be aptly named: "PF" for player

follow (surely someone could come up with a better name than that)

Once the above are stated there should perhaps be a Rating System over

common tasks:

II. Rating System

1.) DPS - (since the test ground will be established, this can be a

weighted average of each separate type of group engaged) "WA" or a less

accurate DPS on first group encountered. "FG" Since many player and

hero skills will benefit from the skills of other players/heros this

cannot be shortcutted by just taking each hero to Master of Damage and

adding the subsequent DPS together as this would not in any way reflect

real team conditions or gameplay.
a.) Further Clarification of "Weighted Average" shall be

established based on the sum of estimated HP of each mob in group

divided by number of whole seconds until last mob in that group

dies.This total should then be divided by party size for a smaller

easier managed number that can easily demonstrate how individual

composition/skill changes effect the group. (could be complicated and

less accurate with multiple pulls so I recommend discarding data on

multi group pulls, unless specified in build notes.)

2.) Condition Removal - (party) take each skill in your party that

removes conditions, then add up the cool downs and number of conditions

removed and divide the cool downs by the conditions removed (for skills

such as spotless mind, include condis removed over duration)

3.) Hex Removal - Identical to Condition removal
a.) for 2, 3 and 4, yes, i realize energy and cast time are also a

factor and if someone could suggest a better equation that also takes

energy/cast into consideration I'd appreciate it. (for the time being

excluding energy... include cast time with recharge.)

4.) Total Healing Capacity- (to include divine favor) Like Condi/Hex

HP gained/recharge. Note: Health Regeneration skills should also be

added to the final tally of other healing skills at a rate of 2HPS

(health per second) per "pip" of regen.
Example: Total Healing Capacity before regen = 300HPS for the team,

Healing Breeze plus Watchful Healing plus Pious Renewal = 31HPS Final

tally 331HPS (example)
For the sake of simplification include secondary healing effects other

than vampiric weapon mods... Cure Hex, Life Steal, Aura of

Restoration (avg) etc.

5.) Damage Mitigation: Skills which DIRECTLY reduce damage taken by a

QUANTIFIABLE amount. Example: Save yourselves, Shielding Hands,

Protective spirit - are included. Blind, Empathy, Daze, Pacifism,

Weakness are not included despite their obvious benefits because of an

inability to easily quantify meaningful results.
(stick with me, this is the last category and gets a bit confusing but

I believe it's important for a spectrum view of a true team build)

a.) Calculation should be accomplished as a function of skill

uptime, number of PARTY members affected and damage mitigated(allies

such as minions/spirits are not to be included in respect to damage

mitigated against them) this score can be calculated outside of combat.

*For Simplicity, Damage mitigated will be based on a party member

receiving 100 "armor affected" damage when applied to a party member

having 500hp for an easy round set of meaningful numbers that are easily

calculated.

*Example Calculation 1: You are an imbagon with 100%

uptime (estimated) for "Save Yourselves" as a midliner, we calculate

an 82% damage reduction for your whole party except you. This equates

to 82dmg * 7 party members / 0 downtime for a party damage mitigation

score of 574DM. If you were a frontline Dragonslash warrior or a

backline Barrage Ranger, we could safely assume that only half the

party would be affected on average thus... 82dmg * 3.5players / 0

downtime = 287DM from the same skill when used by this party member.

*Example Calculation 2: Prot Monk hero running "Protective

Spirit" at 13 in Protection Prayers. Assuming 90% up time on 2 party

members (example only, testing of actual AI may be required) at 500hp,

incoming damage is reduced to 50. 50dmg * 2 party members / 10%

downtime = 10DM to the party for that skill only. Continue with other skills

for this and all party members.

*All skill totals for damage mitigation are then added up and

divided by the number of party members for a simple party average

damage mitigation. If the above examples were the only quantifiable

mitigation for the party of 8 (unlikely considering blocking stances,

forms, etc) the party average Damage Mitigation would be:

*Imba + Monk 584DM/8 = 73DM
*Dslash or Barrage + Monk 297DM/8 = 37.125
(round to whole integer of 37 for simplicity)
Wow, we've already quantifiably shown why Imbagons are so... IMBA

Why go to all this trouble?? Well, if you want to define anything in

life or in a game. There must be parameters by which to measure.

Simply stating: "Oh I used discordway to vq all of factions so it is

best", doesn't really illustrate WHY or let someone who's play style

differs make an educated decision.

With these 5 Statistics we can measure speed in DPS, Range of Utility

(conditions / hexes) for specific zones or dungeons. and Survivability

in Raw Healing and Damage mitigation, in a simple concise 6 line Chart:

Team Hypothetical Conjecture: Tested in Jaga Moraine HM: No Consets
*DPS/m = 75dps[FG] (low armor) 72[FG] (high armor) "Weight Avg. being

tested"
[shows lots of armor ignoring damage in x build]
*Cond = 4rps (full energy party)
[shows heavy condition areas may be a problem for this team]
*Hex = 8rps
(full energy party... note: energy may be problem for long fights

Optional slot for BiP necro)
*Heal = 300hps
*DM = 73DM/p
Total: (sum divided by 5)
= 92 Effective Rating

How a person would actually report their build:

Team Hypothetical Conjecture: No-Micro
Tested in Jaga Moraine HM: No Con-sets
Zone Clear time: 1hour (no quests active)
Player as tested: Mid-line Imba Optional BiP hero not tested
(Template Codes in list 1-8 starting with player)
*DPS/m = 75dps[FG] (low armor) 72[FG] (high armor) "WAvg. not tested"
*Cond = 4rps
*Hex = 8rps
*Heal = 300hps
*DM = 73DM/p
Effective Rating = 92

Notes: BiP is recommended for e-denial or heavy hex areas
Pros: blah blah Cons: blah blah

Lastly, all of this is to enable apples to apples comparison, and

illustrate weaknesses and strengths in an easy to understand format.

While all variables are certainly not included, "Gear as tested

(weapons armor etc)" can easily be placed in the build description as

well as notes on pros and cons of the build other than those

illustrated in the chart and total.

I'd love some feedback on this idea. And feel free to troll it /sigh

Most players would never even think of this much testing, but there are

we happy few who would see this as a real opportunity to improve builds

and team cohesion/effectiveness with an easy to read quantifiable

measuring stick. I also look forward to constructive input on better

ways to do the equations while still keeping them simple enough for the

average player to participate. (making it too complicated alienates

the player base and effectively limits new ideas, defeating the

purpose)

Known problems: "Offensive Damage Mitigation Calculation", while a huge part of the game, (Blind, Interrupts, Daze Etc.) there's just no way to easily calculate actual mitigation from these skills

If people do start using this method, i would recommend always acknowledging your Offensive DM skills and the impact on total DM. ie: "Blind and Weakness are commonly spammed by the Earth Elementalist and spread via Mesmer Epidemic in this build, so true Damage Mitigation is considerably higher than listed above"

Fierabras · Apr 14, 2011, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

The following screens are on Lvl 1 of Vloxen Exca HM with Fragway. As shown, I killed the first 3 groups before the war boss to raise some minions. I waited for the prisoner group to pass. I then killed the war boss group. The prisoners are now dead and have been raised into minions by the group in the tunnel. So, I proceed down the tunnel and take them head on as shown.

Screens:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/8348/gw262f.jpg
http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/2473/gw263.jpg
http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/2970/gw264.jpg
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3388/gw265.jpg
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/3495/gw266.jpg
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4240/gw267.jpg

Note:
- Actually, I cannot explain why I have 7% morale boost, and my heroes got 9%.

- Again, no flagging of heroes, spirit microing, skill microing etc etc. Just play natural and focus FD + fragility on key targets.

- I didn't even bother to take frozen soil. They ressed a few times, but I took them out again

Obviously, when I am serious, I will take FS.

+2 cookie for fragway?

Any advice for an ele main?

majoho · Apr 14, 2011, 09:45 PM // 21:45

@mage767
stop promoting your build (as I said in the other thread it is actually good build) - BUT the idea with this thread was NOT to post your results but to come with ideas on how to test builds.

@Groth
Good stuff but I think much of that is just too hard for "normal" people to get.

Groth · Apr 14, 2011, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

@Groth
Good stuff but I think much of that is just too hard for "normal" people to get.

Well, I drug it out too long trying to explain the whole "Vision"

Basically it is making an actual "measure" by which to compare team composition. So often we see... well XYZ works awesome... but we never measure "Why" other than a vague "it feels like i need more speed in this group" or some such statement.

DPS is calculated with the whole party and then divided by the number of party members giving you avg DPS per member (healers included because they occupy space thus lowering per capita damage potential showing that 1 very effective healer is superior [For DPS] to 2 mediocre because of the increase in per capita damage per second)

Conditions both mitigate your teams damage output and negatively impact survivability. So there is a Calculation for that category, same for Hexes.

Healing is an Obvious. Need help on somehow fitting energy management into the equation without creating another category. But total Healing Capacity per second being the sum of all healing divided by the sum of recharge plus cast times (assuming perfect e-management}. An unrealistic number usually, but still if everyone uses the same equation on their team builds it allows apple to apple comparisons of builds.

Then the Damage Mitigation. Kinda gotta read that one a bunch of times. The Idea of the measurement got lost in the (correct but confusing) examples given. At the root, is calculating all party member defensive skills, calculate how much damage is mitigated by that skill, how many party members are protected by it, and then divide it by percentage of combat time actually in use. (all this can be done outside of combat) using standardized hypothetical numbers. (i recommended 100 damage on a 500hp party member)

Finally was the recommended format for displaying the information. Simple, easy to read, easy to understand and compare. If I'm going to try and H/H XYZ dungeon, and i have two possible team builds to choose from... I think about what monsters I'll face and choose the appropriate setup based on those 6 categories.

Also, if you are proposing a new build, with radical changes from normal Meta play... this process provides a way to "prove" your build against more accepted builds. Simply run both, and do the calculations. Admit your own weaknesses and show how your build overcomes the weaknesses of the "accepted meta build". Simply taking a screenshot at the end of Slaver's Exile means nothing when someone could have wasted 3 ConSets and 100 four leaf clovers all in a bid to say "i told you so". But with actual statistics based in an accepted method of measuring skill balance, (whether that be this method or not) the tests are repeatable and since it's a set AI relatively simple to confirm or debunk.

Sorry i got so long winded before... AND again. The format needs peer review, but I'm hopeful

mage767 · Apr 14, 2011, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

@mage767
stop promoting your build (as I said in the other thread it is actually good build) - BUT the idea with this thread was NOT to post your results but to come with ideas on how to test builds.

@Groth
Good stuff but I think much of that is just too hard for "normal" people to get.

About build promotion:I think I have every right to explain to the masses that there exist alternative ways (preferably more powerful) to do heroway for specific types of classes. Fragway is just one hero-build designed specifically for mesmer primary. I will do the same for every other class when the need arises.

About your test:
Your test used the hypothesis that many "good builds" will fail while aggroing the specified groups outside Rata sum. I just thought that Fragway is one such of the hero builds I have used that will not fit that general category. Which is why upon successful completion, I awarded it a +1 cookie. Calm down and enjoy the cookies - you will probably see plenty of other exceptional team builds from other posters who will obviously advocate their builds.

So basically, if I do exactly as am I told (for a specific challenge), then I MUST not promote successful actions that might help others in their adventures?

aga · Apr 14, 2011, 11:23 PM // 23:23

The raptor/angorodon double pull is a bad test place, since all that happens is they all rush to melee range leaving them very vulnerable to AoE skills. The mobs in slavers would be much better for testing, imo, even though with 7 heroes it's super easy.

mage767 · Apr 14, 2011, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fierabras

Any advice for an ele main?

I would drop the panic mesmer and bring an FD mesmer hero instead. So, this gives you two heroes who have fragility to spam on enemies.

As ele, you can contribute in a variety of ways:

1. Conditions: specifically burning + cracked armor, from fire and air lines, applied repeatedly and quickly across the battlefield.

2. Improved aggro control: Water hexes, or earth line skills. This should slow enemies down for FD+fragility to work better. So, if they are balled around your dervish they will stay balled.

3. Skill spamming: E/A AP build will also do just fine. Just fill the rest of the AP bar with above specified skills.

Mahojo will get mad because I have hijacked his thread. Maybe I should create a new thread and answer questions over there instead

majoho · Apr 15, 2011, 12:13 AM // 00:13

I'm not mad but you clearly didn't understand the premise of the thread and you ARE hijacking it. (and that can get you infracted it happened to me a couple of times).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

So basically, if I do exactly as am I told (for a specific challenge), then I MUST not promote successful actions that might help others in their adventures?

Apparently you didn't read my post - I did not ask for people to do "my test" and post the result here.

I asked for people to post suggestions/places on what would be a good way to test builds - so I posted an example of a way to test. My idea was that people could test their builds before making a new thread.

(And as I said, I like your build I was experimenting with a very similar one myself)

Xenomortis · Apr 15, 2011, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Personally I would actually like a few more places to test my builds so in any case I'd like to know where other people test - the locations should be easy to get to and ofc testing should be in HM.

Any Slaver's Exile dungeon in Hard Mode. Forgewight has a lot of AoE nastiness, Selvetarm has a few annoying sections and Thommis/Rand have some very large mobs.
The Summit mobs in Slaver's Exile are probably the most threatening groups - other areas are harder, but only because mob sizes get ridiculous (DoA) or because you're required to operate under tough conditions (UW, DoA again).

Borrguus Blisterbark is a fairly decent trial for being able to deal with threatening caster groups.

I can't think of too much else where merely completing without much difficulty would be a decent test for a build. The Domain of Anguish and Underworld could be used, but player tactics and ability are too much of a factor and are requirements in those places.

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Location: Riven Earth, exit from Rata Sum.

Map: http://i56.tinypic.com/2d8m9sg.jpg

Go to the location on the map, wait for the Raptor patrol to be close then make sure to aggro both the Raptor and Angorodon group at the same time.

This is an extreme example because many decent builds will fail this, mainly because the Angorodon are OP'ed but it's still a good test to spot glaring weaknesses.

Really? I went there on my Nec with my standard hero setup (for my Nec). I took two deaths because I didn't flag my heroes apart (and really, they were avoidable).
That's not too much of a test; those enemies don't have any healing (some lifesteal on the Angorodon's) and the Raptors ball up and hence explode to AoE damage.
Angorodon's aren't all that bad; they have three skills that do meaningful damage; Deathly Swarm, Putrid Explosion and Twisting Jaws - one requires corpses and one is a touch skill.
Ravenous Gaze is only annoying because you have several copies being cast at once but it doesn't do too much damage anyway.

LifeInfusion · Apr 15, 2011, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Forgewright on a character without SY! is really biased against casters... ST rit helps but then you still have wastrel/E-surge spam. If all you do is slot 2 hex removals the heroes will be useless against the hex spam.

Xenomortis · Apr 15, 2011, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Forgewright on a character without SY! is really biased against casters...

Makes it a better test.

mage767 · Apr 15, 2011, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Forgewright on a character without SY! is really biased against casters... ST rit helps but then you still have wastrel/E-surge spam. If all you do is slot 2 hex removals the heroes will be useless against the hex spam.

Any of the Slavers HM is fine but spawns can vary a bit. Also, for specific bosses, some modifications are useful. For example, I wouldn't step into Forge HM without a WaH ele hero. But then, WaH hero is not part of my standard team build...so how do we test builds fairly?

Chthon · Apr 15, 2011, 02:06 AM // 02:06

1. I do support the idea of a few standardized "beat this to make sure your build isn't junk" locations.

2. I don't think those two mobs outside of Rata Sum are a good choice for the following reasons:
a. I cannot hope to remember how to spell the name of those necromancer dinosaurs, and it would be cruel to make them a constant topic of discussion.
b. Angrodonogondoggondons do a lot of armor-ignoring and prot-ignoring damage. That's not reflective of PvE in general and tends to overly favor builds with certain forms of mitigation or excessive redbarup.
c. Raptors block. A lot. Again, that's not reflective of PvE in general and tends to overly favor builds with caster damage, heavy enchant removal, or block-bypassing.
d. Raptors are pure melee. While more reflective of PvE in general than the above two issues, it's not not as representative as you could hope, and tends to overly favor builds with melee hate.
e. Putrid Explosion on the Androdongadongs is usually what spikes someone out if someone dies against them. And Putrid Explosion is really hit-or-miss depending on where the heroes happen to stand relative to the corpses. That injects a very big random factor into something we want to be standardized.
f. It might be illegal to murder dinosaurs.

3. I might suggest a multi-factor test. For example, something like: 1. Beat Raisu Palace HM (Danika, Cynn, no celestial skill) faster than 11 minutes; 2. Beat a double aggro outside Rata Sum HM; 3. Beat Sunreach Warmaker's group in HM (bonus points if you double aggro Falaharn Mistwarden's group and don't die); 4. beat Vloxen HM (although that would take away from goal of the tests being quick, so maybe not); etc.

mage767 · Apr 15, 2011, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. I might suggest a multi-factor test. For example, something like: 1. Beat Raisu Palace HM (Danika, Cynn, no celestial skill) faster than 11 minutes; 2. Beat a double aggro outside Rata Sum HM; 3. Beat Sunreach Warmaker's group in HM (bonus points if you double aggro Falaharn Mistwarden's group and don't die); 4. beat Vloxen HM (although that would take away from goal of the tests being quick, so maybe not); etc.

A lot of those are easily achievable by people who heroway. People use tactics for enemy placement, micro-ing etc to achieve those.

1. Raisu HM is barely hard, any standard team build can clear it fine.
2. Double aggro is not reflective of PvE HM in general.
3. Double boss aggro is also doable if you use the walls wisely.
4. Vloxen HM clearance depends on player tactics. Many different team builds can clear it, I have done melee-way (with SY on war) and fragway (without SY on mes). Even pure spiritway with frozen soil is more than enough to overwhelm the summits.

Daesu · Apr 15, 2011, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

b. Angrodonogondoggondons do a lot of armor-ignoring and prot-ignoring damage. That's not reflective of PvE in general and tends to overly favor builds with certain forms of mitigation or excessive redbarup.
c. Raptors block. A lot. Again, that's not reflective of PvE in general and tends to overly favor builds with caster damage, heavy enchant removal, or block-bypassing.
d. Raptors are pure melee. While more reflective of PvE in general than the above two issues, it's not not as representative as you could hope, and tends to overly favor builds with melee hate.
e. Putrid Explosion on the Androdongadongs is usually what spikes someone out if someone dies against them. And Putrid Explosion is really hit-or-miss depending on where the heroes happen to stand relative to the corpses. That injects a very big random factor into something we want to be standardized.

Much as I hate Angorodons, dinos are actually quite common in EOTN Asuran areas. Besides, they are a good test for how your team does against armor ignoring damage. Blocking is also quite common in PvE especially with ranger and assassin mobs.

A fairer test for physical versus caster oriented teams is to test them all against a variety of mobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

And as I said myself my test was a bit over the top since the dinos in that area will spike you like nothing else you will encounter + on top of that they have a stupid OP monster skill. (Twisting Jaws : Touch Skill. Steals 120 Health; inflicts a Deep Wound and Bleeding (10 seconds).)

They are not that hard with any half decent build as long as you do proper aggro control instead of taking 2-3 mobs at a time.

Since I test hero builds often, I hate to run a long way or jump over hoops whenever I want to test a build. My suggestion:

1. Take the hero team out to Dalada Uplands HM and kill Horai Wingshield and his gang without flagging your heroes to test your team against a mixed mob with lots of hexes and conditions, healing, and hex removal.

2. If successful without any deaths, take the team to kill the Charr caster mob outside of Doomlore Shrine to test your team against a caster mob.

3. If successful without any deaths, take the team to kill all the Charr rangers + 1 Charr flameshielder behind to test your team against a ranger mob.

4. If successful without any deaths, take the team to Riven Earth outside of Rata Sum and kill the first group of raptors to test your team against a melee mob.

5. If successful without any deaths, take the team to kill the first group of Angorodon to test your team against a caster mob with lots of armor ignoring damage.

6. If successful without any deaths, then congratulations, you may now post your build.

mage767 · Apr 15, 2011, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

6. If successful without any deaths, then congratulations, you may now post your build.

LOL? We should only get post builds which do not suffer deaths? I guess, that's a pretty bad condition to assess the viability of build. No team build is ever solid, and if that was the case, we wouldn't still be testing hero builds today - we would all be using the god-mode team build...which do not suffer from any deaths!

Daesu · Apr 15, 2011, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

LOL? We should only get post builds which do not suffer deaths? I guess, that's a pretty bad condition to assess the viability of build. No team build is ever solid, and if that was the case, we wouldn't still be testing hero builds today - we would all be using the god-mode team build...which do not suffer from any deaths!

The point is, those mobs are suppose to be easy for any decent 7-heroes build. I am not expecting anyone to run a long way or pay 1k to some elite area in HM.

If your team build can't even hold their own against them, then I would have doubts they are decent enough for general pve.

Furthermore, they are the filters, passing all these doesn't necessarily mean your build is great either unless we set time milestones to ensure that your build is not overly defensive and not enough damage.

I leave that end to the rest of you, I am fine with assessing if the build is overly defensive just by looking at it.