Curse

chullster · Apr 19, 2011, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Edited with suggestions.

Hello all,

I wanted to make a build for myself and my girlfriend that was fun and (to us) new. I followed the plan of BIG DOMAGES! = more fun and faster battles.

In short you get active (not passive) large aoe damage, fast movement, high protection, healing, hex and condition removal, all in one. The humans don't have to micro anything apart from the disabled aggressive refrains when you first map in, the hero with AoF maintains them thereafter.

The builds were not only designed with skill interaction in mind, but we also watched as the heroes used the bars, changing out skills (eg dark fury, love it, but it had to go) that caused other skills not to be used effectively.

It's not just theory craft either, we went out and have so far ran through Bogroots, Frostmaws and Rragnars dungeons in HM. Pretty simple places, but we found them quick and straight forward. Died once in Rragnars due to fallbacking into the 2 necro bosses thinking it was a standard group, and once in Frostmaws due to a bad idea of mine.

Having already done UW in nm and hm with other builds, we'll be trying this one out there as soon as we get round to it, and I'll update this post; it'll probably require 2 copies of SY and TNTF for the 4 H quest so you can split.

FoW is too easy to comment on or be bothered to test out, so I assume it'll be as easy as it is with more standard meta teams.

What you get

It's based around spirit rift, ancestors rage and splinter weapon, with solid para based protection and damage.

SR - Doesn't matter how many copies you have, cracked armour included so increasing subsequent damage. 2 sec cast is bad, but the heroes have HCT/HRT staffs and they deal with it, not me.

AR - Awesome. Cheap, fast casting and AoE.

3 copies of Splinter - All spear users and some minions/allies get it too, armour ignoring multi-target damage.

Other stuff included:

1. Party wide hex removal and an elite hex/condition remover.
2. Stacked condition removal
3. Party wide damage reduction, high armour, blocking
4. Cracked armour flying around willy nilly, so the paras do some serious damage too, and other non-armour ignoring damage is increased.
5. Enemy party wide enchant removal, ie raptor groups; strips all their critical defences for 5e.
6. Interrupts
7. Minion wall, large ones too.
8. Party damage split between casters and attackers, so party wide blind wont gimp you, neither will party wide daze.
9. Deep wound if target's not already destroyed.
10. Constant burning applied
11. A party build 2/3rds non-meta

12. Mobile damage - No spirit armies stuck just out of attack range.
13. No long cast times on human bars (AR doesn't count as single cast), and only a few long-cast skills on hero bars, the MM-prot, but why change what is so good.
14. Near permanent +33% movement speed.
15. Abuse the wonder-finales

Have fun, post suggestions to improve, and if I thought of it already I'll try and explain why I didn't use it. If I like them, I'll adjust the build.

Hope all the couples enjoy it as much as we are right now.

nightschroud · Apr 19, 2011, 01:25 PM // 13:25

owk let me give u my thoughts about it :

- looks like a very solid build , you got enough hex/condition removal and with 2 imba's damage will pretty much be non-existing so the healing from the 2 rit's will definetly do

-also , if u put 15 channeling on the rit's instead of 14 then u get that sweet 50 damage point for splinter weapon wich is just to fun to ignore , at least it is for me ^^

also ps : there is 1 thing that is bugging me .... and its pretty much the sole reason is posted anything on this build even though its solid enough and u know it .

11. A party build 2/3rds non-meta

0.o ...? what ?
if i recall rit's are a huge part of the meta , your bars may not be 100% meta-barrs but change like 2 skills and they are.
imbagon is pretty much the only build in meta for the paragorn's.

the only non meta thing i see is the para hero build at the bottem ....
so its more like 1/8 non meta ..

at least thats how i see it ^^"

Demon's Dance · Apr 19, 2011, 03:01 PM // 15:01

The only adrenal skill on the first human is GftE.Maybe replacing AR + FA with Soldier's Fury and ToF.Do those rt/me have energy problems because my heroes tend not to use leech signet,power drain and hex eater signet?

Your main dds are 'mages' and you don't have Blood Ritual or Blood is Power ...why?Put one of those on your MM and replace Offering of Spirit with Clamor of Souls.Animate Vampiric Horror instead of Animate Shambling Horror so your MM could regain health.("Consider using Splinter Weapon on this creature as the damage caused by Splinter Weapon will also heal you").

I will choose Recuperation over Rejuvenation but it may cause some energy problems.Agony sux.

chullster · Apr 19, 2011, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Thanks for the replies, you've given me some knowledge about the vamp summon I never knew, I think I'll change that.

@nightschroud

Thanks for the compliments, I'm ok with only minor runes, so 14 is enough for me

The two humans aren't quite full imbas, as I split the two stapled skills so we could both do a little more damage. The defence isn't as high as it could be, but it's still plenty for 95% of GW.

The comment about 2/3rds non meta was said tongue in cheek, yes rits are meta, but people seem to post spirit spam builds, that I've seen anyway. I can't say I've caught every team build posted though.

@Demon's Dance

I toyed with Soldiers Fury and the tactics one too, as 33% IAS is always better. The reason I went with the usual FA/AR combo was ease of use, FA has no activation time and lasts 45 secs, AR is one cast only when you map in. I like a personal build that doesn't require too much casting time, the ebon standard skill is the only spell I can stand to use, and that's only because it's so powerful.

Only one add. skill as it's mainly for my own energy management, and to trigger finales/refrains/deep wound.

The resto rits are generally ok with energy, even in frostmaws with all the QZ spirits. I have swapped leech sig for WNWN when there's not many casters in an area, the elite skill pays for it self too. The para hero has Energizing finale, not sure if you saw that, it's as OP as the other finales, he likes to throw it about, I find with 3 paras it's all the energy top-up the party needs.

There's a reason I chose the spirits I did, you may have noticed there's no bloodsong, and it's the same reason: they live too long.

When I had BS in there, the heroes would not recast it, even on recharge, if the old one is "in spirit range". That's longer range than earshot, so OoS/Spirit Light etc becomes a sac skill or others don't work as well. Most of the spirits I chose are cheap and kill themselves, so the hero AI will recast on recharge, keeping more spirits in earshot, hence chosing Agony etc.

Thanks for the vamp suggestion, I'm going to check (not that I don't trust you

) and will update the team build in the OP.

Edit: You're correct, OP updated, swapped in WNWN too for more energy gain when not many casters in a map. Though I might change it back when I've
tested it.

Edit 2: Swapped power drain back in as I prefer the interrupts and energy is ok on those rits. Changed dodge this for Asuran Scan so more reliable add. gain for SY.

Xsiriss · Apr 19, 2011, 05:34 PM // 17:34

You could take out one of the rits and put a curses necro in for weakness/shadow of fear/barbs. The healer would probably be best as curses doesn't require too much investment (9+1 should be fine) and as a necro they'll have superior energy management. Also swapping putrid bile for summon bone minions would be a good idea as then you'd have more bombs/ex[endable meatshields.

Ghull Ka · Apr 19, 2011, 05:36 PM // 17:36

I demand that you rename your build "Togoway"

In honor of the "Orion of Cantha", who made sure that a pretty blue ball exploded over EVERY enemy corpse he saw.

chullster · Apr 19, 2011, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

You could take out one of the rits and put a curses necro in for weakness/shadow of fear/barbs. The healer would probably be best as curses doesn't require too much investment (9+1 should be fine) and as a necro they'll have superior energy management. Also swapping putrid bile for summon bone minions would be a good idea as then you'd have more bombs/ex[endable meatshields.

The build is based on the rits, and would drop a lot of direct damage swapping in a curses necro. Those necro skills you mentioned aren't needed, there's enough prot without weakness/shadow of fear and enough damage without barbs. The 2 sec cast on barbs is too slow for single target damage IMO. Spirit Rift is the same energy cost and cast time, and is seems better in practice. Energy management is peachy with the two skills on each/Elite skill and energizing finale.

The MM seems to have 8-10 minions most of the time, so there's plenty of bombs, putrid bile is aoe, armour-ignoring damage and that's what I like.

We've tried to wean ourselves off the reliance of necro based teams, and I think this one does a better job with more active damage. We kept Sabs MM/Prot as we want minions and it's a reliable build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

I demand that you rename your build "Togoway"

In honor of the "Orion of Cantha", who made sure that a pretty blue ball exploded over EVERY enemy corpse he saw.

Lmao

I like it, tell you what if anyone can be bothered to put it on pvx then they can name it "Togoway" with pleasure, I love factions, it's the best part of the game for me, and the first episode I played.

jensyea · Apr 19, 2011, 05:53 PM // 17:53

make your MM either a bomber or a MM with viable minions. A bit of both doesn't work very well. For bomber go with jagged bones + animate minions + death nova, for viable go with AoTL or Flesh Golem with your vampiric and it also frees up a slot.
Personally I swear by my explosive growth bomber with spirit gift, it's the best MM there is imo, but will require a merc hero for your build keep the 4 spirit rifts.

do with it what you want, hope I helped

FoxBat · Apr 19, 2011, 07:00 PM // 19:00

I don't really get all of the GftE spam, 3 copies and 2 of them with focused anger. Minions don't even attack fast enough to exploit that much GFtE. Seems the top para should be looking into another elite.

I know you're trying to be original but I'd just be too tempted to at least throw in SoS/bloodsong on one of the rifters. You've got that much channeling anyway and the turrets fit with the para theme.

chullster · Apr 19, 2011, 09:22 PM // 21:22

@jensyea The MMs minions are squishy enough and go boom quite quickly, so smaller ones aren't needed.

I did once run a 8 necro team all with Golem for the elite, was fun but AotL denies bodies for putrid explosion faster, and +1 DM helps damage.

@FoxBat

Gfte is not there for minions, or even for the crit hits. There are 2 or 3 good add. based energy management skills for para: GftE, the power is yours, and SY. Gfte is the lowest add. required that isn't elite. That shout is primarily to trigger finales as it ends on attack, and to feed the paras energy, it also provides a deep wound combined with vicious attack, but that is just icing, the first two reasons are the main ones, more copies = more heals and energy.

SoS and bloodsong are too immobile, live too long as explained above and don't do enough damage without painful bond and other spirits I haven't brought.

Originality wasn't the aim; only lots of Spirit Rift, Ancestors Rage and Splinter Weapon.

FoxBat · Apr 20, 2011, 07:24 AM // 07:24

What I'm more trying to say is, you brought focused agression *just* to spam GftE on the #1 bar, which is a bit silly. Even The Powers is Yours spammed alongside GftE does more if you want energy that badly. Albeit there are plenty of utility options like stunning strike. You can also do soldier's fury + anthem of envy in the same slots.

SoS and bloodsong do alot more damage than the equally immobile agony or destruction. Certainly more damage than OoS when one of those bars can be powered by spirit siphon. It's like equivalent to one paragon by itself. Even with the downsides, it costs basically nothing to use them when you already have channelers, and enjoy the benefits where they are useful. Hell you might even run *two* SoS and watch them alternate summoning between fights if you're moving that fast.

chullster · Apr 20, 2011, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Ahh, I get your point now foxbat.

I suppose two skills including an elite for energy management is a little overkill. Your idea about TPIY is good, I always thought it would be a better skill on a human, as they are more likely to maintain it. Having said that, I don't actually want to maintain TPIY, because of the finales.

I'll give it a go and see if that on its own is enough energy (bare in mind I have 5 energy skills to spam, one 15e and 2 at 10e), then I can add another attack skill or damage buff. I'm not sure it will be enough energy with 5e every 4 attacks, even if I add FGJ to get it to 5e every 2 attacks for 20 secs. Shame it's an elite, as it's not that OP.

I could always switch to Add. based attack skills to get more use out of it, but I like lightning spears recharge and AP too much, and spear of fury is just awesome with burning refrain maintained on you. None of the add. based attacks really appeal to me as much as those two.

I left out AoE (it is awesome and is in the refrainway para build I use) because it has a casting time, one spell on my bar is enough for me. If it was a shout you wouldn't be able to prise it off my paras bar

You're right about bloodsong doing more damage, as would SoS, but heroes don't use spirit syphon too well, and the damage is over time, (SoS less so) not all at once. There's also the issue of obstructions, being out of range one ele nuking skill or a 100b war wiping them all out. I agree each attacking spirit is like a mini paragon in itself, but I haven't brought a para buffing based team, so they wont be as strong as in a team based around buffing attack skills.

While the heroes are using those they're not casting 'rift or AC either. I had to take out other damage skills so they concentrated on those at one point, learning the AIs priorities is another thing you have to check when making hero team builds.

I'm sure you've seen plenty of SoS or SoGM builds, I've used them myself, but I prefer if running spirit spam heroes to have every attacking spirit possible and parasitic bond. Having half or less that potential and splitting between attack spells and summoning is not ideal IMO.

psi101101 · Apr 21, 2011, 12:09 AM // 00:09

this is very interesting

... i do have a question .. what to replace the PVE only skills on the second Human player??

greenough · Apr 21, 2011, 03:01 AM // 03:01

personally to me any more than 1 para on a team is to much, but if it works for you then power to ya, also death nova on a healer or a hero with prots is never good. i think the basic idea of this build is good, just wanted to point out a couple things to look at. i've actually made a 5 rit team based a little bit off this build, haven't tested it yet but looks good. if you have the ability to add a 5th maybe drop the aotl nec and add a sos/bloodsong. or try and fit them into the build you have.

edit: just noticed all those para's and no chest thumper,maybe im blind and it is there and just can't see it, but if it isn't. with all the cracked armor it would be a good skill to have.

also asuran scan is pretty nice to have, hits threw blind, hexes and stances.

this is what i ended up with, maybe it will give you some idea's.

chullster · Apr 21, 2011, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by psi101101

this is very interesting

... i do have a question .. what to replace the PVE only skills on the second Human player??

I'd use command shouts that add conditions and/or damage. Anthem of Envy gets first choice, then maybe disruption, stand your ground or the defensive refrain if you want some help there.

Basically any skill that are boring to play, that's what I give heroes, fun skills and big yellow numbers for human players.

@greenough

SoS and/or bloodsong aren't suited to this build, I've explained why further up.

On your build the SoGM rit will probably be short on energy a lot with only boon of creation. I see no others with energy boost skills. If he gets stripped it'll be even worse.

From experience I'd say player 4 will struggle with energy too, even with OoS on their bar.

Why two parasitic bonds?

Essence strike is a bit mediocre on a hero bar, they will use it as a damage spell, not an energy management spell, so use it when they could be using a bigger damage skill, or when they are full of energy anyway.

I don't like ER prot heroes much, they can't maintain ER all the time, and they don't even cast it on recharge, only when in battle.

I don't like chest thumper as it has no +damage, only the DW condition. Vicious and 3 copies of GftE is good enough. Most stuff dies without need of a DW anyway, I just have it on a hero as it's useful to push through any slow kills.

You play melee on that picture, but no strength and honour? You might be like me and not like relying on enchantments that get stripped too easily.

The paragon has no increase attack speed, and no adrenalin shouts for energy management, which severely gimps him/her.

Thanks for the Asuran Scan suggestion, I may try it on the 2nd human bar instead of dodge this, but my gf likes that skill so it might take some persuasion.

Edit: Updated OP. Just noticed the spirits I've chosen are exact opposites of each other; Agony and Rejun. Life and Destruction. Nice.

greenough · Apr 21, 2011, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by chullster

@greenough

SoS and/or bloodsong aren't suited to this build, I've explained why further up.

On your build the SoGM rit will probably be short on energy a lot with only boon of creation. I see no others with energy boost skills. If he gets stripped it'll be even worse.

From experience I'd say player 4 will struggle with energy too, even with OoS on their bar.

Why two parasitic bonds?

Essence strike is a bit mediocre on a hero bar, they will use it as a damage spell, not an energy management spell, so use it when they could be using a bigger damage skill, or when they are full of energy anyway.

I don't like ER prot heroes much, they can't maintain ER all the time, and they don't even cast it on recharge, only when in battle.

I don't like chest thumper as it has no +damage, only the DW condition. Vicious and 3 copies of GftE is good enough. Most stuff dies without need of a DW anyway, I just have it on a hero as it's useful to push through any slow kills.

You play melee on that picture, but no strength and honour? You might be like me and not like relying on enchantments that get stripped too easily.

The paragon has no increase attack speed, and no adrenalin shouts for energy management, which severely gimps him/her.

Thanks for the Asuran Scan suggestion, I may try it on the 2nd human bar instead of dodge this, but my gf likes that skill so it might take some persuasion.

Edit: Updated OP. Just noticed the spirits I've chosen are exact opposites of each other; Agony and Rejun. Life and Destruction. Nice.

There isn't 2 copy's of parasitic bond, theirs 2 copies of painful bond, hero's don't stack hex's so that means more dmg from spirits more of the time.

er prot is the shit. as i said above, don't like death nova on a hero with prots. instead of helping you it will try and cast death nova, (2 second cast i believe) on you which by that time its to late.

The para will never run out of energy with 12 leadership.its main focus is to help out the team, not to deal damage, the brunt of dmg comes from my build + splinter+rage. not saying this would work for you, just wanted to give some idea's. a build like this helps a melee toon out more because they'll be able to benefit from ancestors rage where a para won't. (unless you run up and stand next to casters)

As for SOH, no i never use it because any place worth doing gets it stripped so there's no point of spending the whole time reapplying it.