Curse

Ghull Ka · Apr 20, 2011, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

All right then, one more question. Do heroes use AoTL whenever there's a corpse, or only when there are a lot of corpses?

They seem to use it on cooldown.
- They'll use it when they're already enchanted by AotL.
- They'll use it immediately when you enter an instance.
- They'll use it without regard to the number of corpses around.

Mike Jack · Apr 20, 2011, 08:14 PM // 20:14

They use it on recharge for the +1 Death Magic.

Outerworld · Apr 20, 2011, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Jack

They use it on recharge for the +1 Death Magic.

^This they don't intentionally use it for the minions it seems.

Kunder · Apr 20, 2011, 08:23 PM // 20:23

They don't use it on recharge to maintain the +1 death magic, if you just sit and wait they will only cast it when it runs out (meaning it won't affect its own recharge/summons). Otherwise, they will use it as they use any other animate skill, whenever there is an available corpse.

reaper with no name · Apr 20, 2011, 08:50 PM // 20:50

I still need to know about BotM. Will Livia prioritize that over healing?

AlsoSol · Apr 20, 2011, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

This is correct: the caster of Jagged Bones owns the minion that is spawned by Jagged Bones. He doesn't gain ownership of the minion he casts it on, though.

A hero with Jagged Bones will use it on all allied minions, so you can bring a JB hero with no animate of his own, if you want.

Thanks. Have to test this one out then.

Dzjudz · Apr 20, 2011, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

This is correct: the caster of Jagged Bones owns the minion that is spawned by Jagged Bones. He doesn't gain ownership of the minion he casts it on, though.

A hero with Jagged Bones will use it on all allied minions, so you can bring a JB hero with no animate of his own, if you want.

Seems to conflict with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiki

If you cast it on a party member's minion, the resulting Jagged Horror will be bound to that party member, not to you.

Ghost Dog · Apr 20, 2011, 09:37 PM // 21:37

I'm inspired to make another giant minion army just to do it, haven't tried since the hero update.

EDIT: Yeah from what I remember heroes spam the balls off of AoTL

Ghull Ka · Apr 20, 2011, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Seems to conflict with:

I may stand corrected, then.

I based my answer off my own recollection and experience, which is pretty old and hasn't kept up with changes. I seem to recall JB'ing other people's minions and gaining the spawns for myself.

Haggis of Doom · Apr 20, 2011, 10:30 PM // 22:30

This thread may be of interest for this discussion.

Kunder · Apr 20, 2011, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I still need to know about BotM. Will Livia prioritize that over healing?

Its a crapshoot with any non-heal skills on the same bar. Necro healers are anti pressure, you can't ever rely on them to catch spikes.

LexTalionis · Apr 21, 2011, 07:56 AM // 07:56

I use BiP instead, because I build around the idea of time efficiency (in terms of opportunity cost) and I believe Jagged Bones/Aura of the Lich/Discord is a false trilemma.

AotL and Jagged Bones prioritise Death Nova synergy by trying to ensure a constant supply of minions. The problem is Death Nova also has a 2 second casting time and this creates the infamous "necromancer lagging behind" everyone problem, which I can't stand. They also love wasting time by casting it on party members and there's no way to stop them from doing this except by disabling it to micro, which is counterproductive. Dwayna's Sorrow is a lot better if you want the Necromancer to actually do anything other than Death Nova, but it's stronger on an actual healing prayers user. 1 guaranteeable Death Nova every 45 seconds or 15 seconds just isn't appealing enough for me.

Sure, a steady stream of minions ensures a constant stream of energy for the Necromancer, but so does a steady stream of enemies dying. I find it a little more effective to ensure a steady stream of energy for everyone else (and having the Minion Master nearly-always be one of the last people to die doesn't hurt either).

Blood is Power is probably one of the strongest energy management skills in the game and it doesn't require a massive investment into Blood Magic to be effective since the 5 arrow breakpoint is at 8 Blood Magic (Incidentally, Dark Bond works just fine at 0 Blood Magic too, but it's strangely unpopular for some nebulous reason or other.), allowing you to create an effective tri-attribute spec.

Of course, I can't guarantee this build to appeal to nor work for everyone. YMMV, but do give it a go - you may be pleasantly surprised. If you can't live without Death Nova, there's nothing stopping you from sticking it on that bar instead of one of the Paragon skills instead. (I prefer a more reliable BiP chain because I don't need the damage from Death Nova.)

Dzjudz · Apr 21, 2011, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

(Incidentally, Dark Bond works just fine at 0 Blood Magic too, but it's strangely unpopular for some nebulous reason or other.)

Because it doesn't fit on the bar if you bring damage skills like Death Nova and Putrid Bile. And the effects are unnecessary in almost all cases.

LexTalionis · Apr 21, 2011, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Well, there's nothing stopping you from taking Putrid Bile nor Death Nova if you really want them - it's not like Dark Bond has a really short duration and needs to be cast incessantly; frankly I'd rather have it than the obligatory Prot Spi that most people stick on the standard Sabway. (I'm a believer of the theory the only reason it was there in the first place was for bar compression)

Frankly, I used to use the old Sabway build extensively and it was almost always the Minion Master that got jumped, perhaps thanks to his/her using Superior runes and having less hp than the rest of the party.

I appreciate the 75% damage reduction a lot, especially in HM. It's nice not to have your entire minion army turn red just because your MM got instagibbed because he/she was sitting in one place casting Death Nova (whee) instead of kiting.

But as I said, your mileage does probably vary vastly. I wouldn't like it half as much if I wasn't usually too lazy to pre-prot.

Dzjudz · Apr 21, 2011, 02:44 PM // 14:44

You'd rather have a 2 sec cast 20 sec recharge 75% damage reduction for a single player depending on whether he has minions than a 1/4 sec cast 5 sec recharge 90% damage reduction for any player? I guess YMMV indeed. This depends on whether the MM is N/Mo anyway. Prot Spirit is probably on another hero in most cases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Well, there's nothing stopping you from taking Putrid Bile nor Death Nova if you really want them - it's not like Dark Bond has a really short duration and needs to be cast incessantly.

The point is not casting time, it's that it takes a skill slot.

Anyway, that is not the point of this thread.

Your main comment was that instead of Jagged/AotL you'd rather have BiP.

The problem is that it forces a lot of attribute spreading and/or major/superior rune usage, especially if taking secondary profession skills (which suffer from lower attributes without the benefit of runes), for what? Your heroes can't manage their own energy? Not to mention the 33% health sacrifice.

LexTalionis · Apr 21, 2011, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Yes, because 1) I run Soul Twisting and Shelter and 2) A skill that's actually used is more useful than a skill which is never used. Death Nova usually takes precedence over Protective Spirit mid-battle if both are put on a necromancer. If you just took a spike and you're at 30% life, the necromancer is going to be casting Death Nova on you, not Protective Spirit.

And I don't really believe attribute spreading is an issue. I've only used the one Superior Death Magic rune in that build. Everything else is minor and Command and Blood are perfectly viable at the levels they're at. Frankly, I'd rather have reliable energy for my party (Because unless you're running specialised builds, crap happens. Power Drain and WN/WN on Monks is not a terribly reliable solution for Energy management. In fact, you have less of an attribute spreading issue on other characters because you don't have to dip that heavily into e-management.) than have to use one of three janky Death Magic elites, none of which add much to my party as a whole other than slightly altered minor minion options.

Edit: The funny thing is that it's perfectly capable of doing its job as a Minion Master. You still get a lot of good meat shields that bodyblock enemies and do a wee bit of damage; You just get better side-effects on the rest of your party. I've been extensively testing that build out and reworking it over the last month and I can say confidently that I notice no tangible difference between it and running an AotL/Jagged necromancer as far as minions are concerned. It wasn't an issue even in corpse-light areas, although ST might be partially to blame for that.

Dzjudz · Apr 21, 2011, 09:33 PM // 21:33

It's a choice between:
- Party energy, no damage other than minions and weaker secondary skills; and
- Stronger minions, damage skills and stronger secondary skills.

For clarification, I don't advocate putting Prot Spirit on an MM.

LexTalionis · Apr 22, 2011, 02:24 AM // 02:24

No it's not. -_-

It's more a choice between

-Party energy

and

-Slightly stronger Death Magic skills (AotL) and a near-guarantee of 1-2 slightly more reliable minions.

As I said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with putting Death Nova and Putrid Bile on that bar if you want. Just remove the paragon skills, which are entirely there for convenience, and Dark Bond is optional too, especially with ST (but useful). Drop all the Command points into Soul Reaping, put SoLS on the bar where Dark Bond or Taste of Death are and it's near-indistinguishable from a Jagged Bones user as far as damage is concerned.

At 18 Death Magic, they still hurt a heck of a lot, AotL's +1 Death Magic doesn't suddenly improve the damage drastically or anything, and it's equivalent to Jagged Bones. If you kill and move fast enough, there isn't a noticeable difference in terms of damage at all.

Haggis of Doom · Apr 22, 2011, 05:27 AM // 05:27

I think we can agree (correct me if I'm wrong) that Empathic Removal / Signet of Removal are sometimes preferred to AotL / Jagged Bones on the minion bomber.

As much as I like AotL, Death Magic elites are just not that good. Taking BiP is fine imho.