Curse

reaper with no name · Apr 20, 2011, 04:36 AM // 04:36

So, I was putting together my 7 hero build, and the only thing I'm not perfectly satisfied with now is my build for Livia.

[Jagged Bones][Death Nova][Animate Bone Minions][Signet of Lost Souls][Life][Protective Was Kaolai][Spirit Light][Mend Body and Soul]

As you can tell, she's a Minion Bomber N/Rt healer (yes, I am aware that she has Life and PwK, it's intentional).

The thing I'm not sure about is the elite. You see, this team build also has a defensive soul twisting hero. Naturally, this will slow down the rate of minion explosions. Furthermore, with the lower armor of bone minions (versus bone horrors, for example), they are more likely to "waste" shelter on any given occasion where they get hit. So what I'm wondering is, should I switch to AotL (do heroes even use that skill properly)? What would be the prots and cons of doing so? Moreover, is minion bombing even still effective with defensive spirits?

And are there any other possibilities I may be missing? And before someone brings it up, yes, I intend for her to stay as a minion master with rit heals. That much will not change.

Life Bringing · Apr 20, 2011, 04:54 AM // 04:54

K, first off, the concept is flawed. Years ago i attempted to run an MM with heals, and it just doesnt work. Well, lemme rephrase that, a healer with Death Nova just doesnt work. Unfortunately for this concept, the hero ai will prioritize Death Nova over actually healing the target, which, as you can imagine, isn't good. I'm not sure if youre aware of this but...yeah

That being said, i definitely prefer AotL>Jagged bones, although i never run an ST so i couldnt really give you situational advice. What areas are you attempting that would necessitate the use of a ST?

reaper with no name · Apr 20, 2011, 07:26 AM // 07:26

I don't really need an ST rit, per se. I just find it too powerful not to use. It's foolproof prot.

I suppose Death Nova is out, then. I guess I could just turn Livia into a "real" MM then. AotL would probably be better for that. Another of my heroes has some curses, so they should be able to get some decent damage.

How do heroes prioritize BotM?

HigherMinion · Apr 20, 2011, 07:46 AM // 07:46

If you intend on not using Death Nova, then take Order of Undeath so the minion's damage is noticeable. BotM is used during battle only (I think).

Lodar Aric · Apr 20, 2011, 09:33 AM // 09:33

AOTL> Jagged Bones imo.

AOTL has the ability to raise an army quickly and creates tougher/higher level tanks. Heroes use it well enough as well.

I do run a ST defensive rit as well unless there is a SY! spammer in the group. Sure it probably doesn't have perfect synergy with group or you don't get the full potential when you have minions but it does keep minions alive longer, keeping your tanks and minion damage alive longer.

Usually my master/bomber runs

AOTL
Bone minions
Death Nova
Masochism
(sometimes SOLS)

Rest of the empty slots you can put whatever you want in, stand your ground, fall back or prot spirit and Aegis. Or you could put in curses, barbs, mark of pain.

Spiritz · Apr 20, 2011, 09:40 AM // 09:40

i use spiritway and tbh ive not noticed st affecting my minions rate of dying but with the n/rt having death nova what you will find is livia being 10 miles behind everyone else coz shes constantly casting death nova - also in battle she will cast death nova soon as u lose 10% hp ( eg get hit 2x ) and as said by a reply or 2 above - will favor it over healing meaning problems.
Similar to the mhenlo/toga effect of minions and viz square - they waste ages healing minions when its not needed.
One way to combat as to disable death nova between mobs or even remove it and add a diff skill.Its just a flaw with anets hero ai and some skills.

AndrewSX · Apr 20, 2011, 10:44 AM // 10:44

I'm for Aotl.
Instead of little squishy kamikaze, using aotl you can esaily have 11 lvl 20 minions.
Also, the point is more "Minion MASTER vs. Minion BOMBER" imo.
And if you want to slot heals/prots on the MM, the former won't use Death nova instead of heal.

Dzjudz · Apr 20, 2011, 11:19 AM // 11:19

I prefer AotL for 10 level 20 minions and stronger Death Magic. I also run an ST rit with Shelter and there are no problems with maintaining it (I use Shelter as the only defensive self-killing spirit, others are offensive).

It's just a pity that heroes let AotL and Masochism run out before recasting.

Miteshu · Apr 20, 2011, 02:56 PM // 14:56

This is no contest, AotL.

But if running dual Fall back, the AotL hero will lag behind.

Only take Jagged when you need condition to fill up a condition.

Swingline · Apr 20, 2011, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

So, I was putting together my 7 hero build, and the only thing I'm not perfectly satisfied with now is my build for Livia.

[Jagged Bones][Death Nova][Animate Bone Minions][Signet of Lost Souls][Life][Protective Was Kaolai][Spirit Light][Mend Body and Soul]

As you can tell, she's a Minion Bomber N/Rt healer (yes, I am aware that she has Life and PwK, it's intentional).

The thing I'm not sure about is the elite. You see, this team build also has a defensive soul twisting hero. Naturally, this will slow down the rate of minion explosions. Furthermore, with the lower armor of bone minions (versus bone horrors, for example), they are more likely to "waste" shelter on any given occasion where they get hit. So what I'm wondering is, should I switch to AotL (do heroes even use that skill properly)? What would be the prots and cons of doing so? Moreover, is minion bombing even still effective with defensive spirits?

And are there any other possibilities I may be missing? And before someone brings it up, yes, I intend for her to stay as a minion master with rit heals. That much will not change.

I use jagged bones on a hero. It makes the minion army last a whole lot longer and with DN its more damage. As for the heals go I don't run heals but use prot skills because it supports the party and allows the MM to focus on raising minions and supporting them through jagged bones and DN.

AoTL I only use when I MM mostly because I can use it better than a hero.

mortenya · Apr 20, 2011, 03:48 PM // 15:48

i like AotL better, but i've gone back to running Jagged recently because i'm not always sprinting from mob to mob. if i'm a little slow, or distracted, jagged helps my MM keep minions up where otherwise i'd run into a mob with my minions at 10% health. basically, if there aren't a ton of corpses, or if fights are spread out, use jagged, if corpses aren't an issue, use AotL. as stated before, it is best if you micro AotL and maso so that they don't run out.

i'm also a fan of prots on MM over heals.

Dzjudz · Apr 20, 2011, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Just stick Fall Back on the MM

.

Miteshu · Apr 20, 2011, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Just stick Fall Back on the MM

.

Doing so will lag the MM behind and you won't get fall back.

majoho · Apr 20, 2011, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I don't really need an ST rit, per se. I just find it too powerful not to use. It's foolproof prot.

Only if you pre-prot and even then it's not foolproof (unless ofc you're normal mode).

Gabs88 · Apr 20, 2011, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Corpse light area's \ easy areas like 4 or 6 mans. Jagged

Corpse heavy area's and hard areas = AOTL

My experience anyhow.

SongOf · Apr 20, 2011, 05:59 PM // 17:59

At 14 Death Magic:

Jagged Bones: Lvl14 Jagged Horror: 10-25dmg, 360HP, ~57AL, inflicts bleeding
AotL: Lvl16 Bone Horror, 42secs: 13-41dmg, 400HP, ~64AL

Jagged Bones is good for areas with few corpses (don't even go MM then), and x2 Death Novas per minion, but the biggest con IMO is how much total time the MM spends renewing JB.

AotL potentially frees up a skill slot (Animate Bone Minions is now optional), but somewhat requires micro (disable and manual activate at end of battle) or you'll get screwed by recharge. The minions are *noticeably stronger.

Personally, I run neither, my MM has Empathic Removal, Animate Bone Minion, BotM, Death Nova, Putrid Bile, Aegis, Prot Spirit and Guardian.

As said, healing skills on a bar with Death Nova is hilarious and a bad idea.

Forgot to mention, for those who care- because 1. minion count is +1 on even numbers, 2. AotL minions are already high level, 3. AotL gives +1 to Death Magic, and ~4. the break point for Putrid Bile degen -2 => -3 is attribute 11 => 12, you can run an MM at only Death Magic attribute 11, get +1 from AoTL, and be about identical strength to Jagged Bone horrors anyway, but with a lot more points to pump elsewhere

Trader of Secrets · Apr 20, 2011, 07:13 PM // 19:13

n/mo is better suited for the MM with prot skills. i also find that the MM skills are a priority for the AI rather than healing in battle. Things like aegis and prot spirit work fairly better than the heal becuz they last for a duration of hopefully will be one group encounter.

AlsoSol · Apr 20, 2011, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Can you use both? I have a MM hero with AotL and I've been wondering if bringing a second necro hero with Jagged Bones would do anything. I've read somewhere that the caster of Jagged Bones owns the minion.

Ghull Ka · Apr 20, 2011, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlsoSol

Can you use both? I have a MM hero with AotL and I've been wondering if bringing a second necro hero with Jagged Bones would do anything. I've read somewhere that the caster of Jagged Bones owns the minion.

This is correct: the caster of Jagged Bones owns the minion that is spawned by Jagged Bones. He doesn't gain ownership of the minion he casts it on, though.

A hero with Jagged Bones will use it on all allied minions, so you can bring a JB hero with no animate of his own, if you want.

reaper with no name · Apr 20, 2011, 07:57 PM // 19:57

All right then, one more question. Do heroes use AoTL whenever there's a corpse, or only when there are a lot of corpses?