Curse

Jeydra · May 04, 2011, 02:58 PM // 14:58

By "very good at Wastrel's" do you mean they cast Wastrel's, or do you mean they get Wastrel's damage triggers?

I'm going to offer a simple alternative explanation, and that is that the difference between BDSM and the best hero builds around isn't very big. I think the record for Raisu HM was 8:07, but if I ran BDSM at max speed I can probably get ~9:30 or maybe even less, with a significant part of the difference coming from not having Fall Back. 1 minute 30 seconds in an area that takes 10 minutes isn't insignificant, but that just shows how big the gap is between the builds.

Raisu's mobs neither deadly nor have powerful healing, so if the teambuilds I'm used to running do get pressured out (after dual aggro), it'll be after at least 45 seconds. By your definitions I'm used to type 2 backlines, although the difference between type 1 and type 2 isn't very clearcut. No matter how good your backline is, your health bars will change, and people can get spiked out.

Finally, of course BDSM has damage. MM does big damage, spirits deal big damage, Mesmers deal fine damage, even Discord Necs deal OK damage. The damage may not be as high as some other builds around, but to say it has no damage is just inaccurate.

LexTalionis · May 04, 2011, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

By "very good at Wastrel's" do you mean they cast Wastrel's, or do you mean they get Wastrel's damage triggers?

I'm going to offer a simple alternative explanation, and that is that the difference between BDSM and the best hero builds around isn't very big. I think the record for Raisu HM was 8:07, but if I ran BDSM at max speed I can probably get ~9:30 or maybe even less, with a significant part of the difference coming from not having Fall Back. 1 minute 30 seconds in an area that takes 10 minutes isn't insignificant, but that just shows how big the gap is between the builds.

Raisu's mobs neither deadly nor have powerful healing, so if the teambuilds I'm used to running do get pressured out (after dual aggro), it'll be after at least 45 seconds. By your definitions I'm used to type 2 backlines, although the difference between type 1 and type 2 isn't very clearcut. No matter how good your backline is, your health bars will change, and people can get spiked out.

Finally, of course BDSM has damage. MM does big damage, spirits deal big damage, Mesmers deal fine damage, even Discord Necs deal OK damage. The damage may not be as high as some other builds around, but to say it has no damage is just inaccurate.

A very good question, Ms. Jeydra! I mean "They use this spell frequently as long as the enemy isn't hexed by it and there are no higher priority spells". The going off bit is left up to your party composition (unless your enemy has Natural Resistance, then it's almost granted) I wouldn't put Worry on a hero without monitoring it (and locking it when needed) because the short recast means they can get locked into doing nothing but it - it's certainly not time efficient. Demise works though, and in any case, Wastrel skills seem to occupy a priority slot similiar to Overload sans-trigger (not used often or at all unless there are few other viable skills.)

On another note: I've been using Foundry HM's first four rooms as a benchmark for testing if builds are good or not. It's quite the most pressure-heavy area I've ever encountered in the game (except for Torc'qua HM's retarded environmental effect) and I'd like to promote an alternative backliner:

AoD dervishes can be quite hilarious and competent as backliners - they don't take very much damage from spells, they're fantastic bait for hexes (enemies waste all sorts of time casting anti-melee crap on them), you can use Splinter Weapon on them, and Shared Burden stacks with Crippled in HM to make everything ridiculously kiteable (which is sometimes even more effective than blind). It's certainly not time efficient, but it's brainless and quite foolproof, unlike the neurotic Icy Veins N/Rt healer.

Ensign · May 07, 2011, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Certainly there's a 'defense = offense' transfer; the more durable your team is, the more aggressively you can play, which increases your offensive potency. When I've been playing my Warrior, in particular, I've seen noticeable improvements in smoothness, both offensively and defensively, from hedging a few heroes more defensive.

I'm almost certainly making sacrifices in killing power under ideal circumstances (good pulls, good aggro, etc), but, as you mentioned, you make up a lot of that from simply not having to care about those things and just punching everything in the face.

I agree with Jeydra about why Rit/Mesmer is so close to really optimized offensive builds - there just isn't that big a gap between what those characters put out offensively and what your all offense guys do. I've played around with a lot of stuff, different Eles and Rangers and all that, and the improvements aren't all that great when compared to the Mesmers; Mesmers are a good bit more bursty, Eles and Rangers more sustained, and they're all pretty interchangeable for pure offense.

What I have found, and I think the results your tests found showed, is that Necros (besides Minion Bombers, once engaged) are *not* on par with those other characters in terms of damage. Necros make great utility guys, with a lot of diverse tools and great built in energy management, but they don't blow up the mooks.

So it's really about getting rid of the Necros and packing the utility elsewhere; the Rits and Mesmers are perfectly good, backbone heroes (that certainly aren't so OMFG good that you *must* run them, but you're not going to do substantially better).

Kunder · May 07, 2011, 10:28 PM // 22:28

I think you are missing the point a bit.

1-2 mins differential is to be expected. Half your lost time in Raisu Palace (most areas, for that matter) is simply running from one end to the other. 9 mins vs 10 mins doesn't mean you are 10% better at killing mobs, you are actually 20% better because you hardly fight mobs the whole time. 20% is a huge increase in power, thats nearly the equivalent of a 10 man team vs an 8 man team. BDSM, while not optimal, is far from horrible. Anyone expecting it to do 50% worse than another build was having wild fantasies, a full team of touch rangers could probably do it with only 30% slower kill rate.

Furthermore, Shiroken mobs are on the whole entirely made up of glass cannon builds and in small groups. Their only defense is Sliver Armor on the eles, which of course spell-based damage easily bypasses. In these situations burst AoE + single target spike is probably at its best. Clearly, no one would be running a BDSM build in HM elite missions, but you can adapt the other performers to do so with relatively minimal difficulty.

EFGJack · May 07, 2011, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Certainly there's a 'defense = offense' transfer; the more durable your team is, the more aggressively you can play, which increases your offensive potency. When I've been playing my Warrior, in particular, I've seen noticeable improvements in smoothness, both offensively and defensively, from hedging a few heroes more defensive.

I'm almost certainly making sacrifices in killing power under ideal circumstances (good pulls, good aggro, etc), but, as you mentioned, you make up a lot of that from simply not having to care about those things and just punching everything in the face.

I agree with Jeydra about why Rit/Mesmer is so close to really optimized offensive builds - there just isn't that big a gap between what those characters put out offensively and what your all offense guys do. I've played around with a lot of stuff, different Eles and Rangers and all that, and the improvements aren't all that great when compared to the Mesmers; Mesmers are a good bit more bursty, Eles and Rangers more sustained, and they're all pretty interchangeable for pure offense.

What I have found, and I think the results your tests found showed, is that Necros (besides Minion Bombers, once engaged) are *not* on par with those other characters in terms of damage. Necros make great utility guys, with a lot of diverse tools and great built in energy management, but they don't blow up the mooks.

So it's really about getting rid of the Necros and packing the utility elsewhere; the Rits and Mesmers are perfectly good, backbone heroes (that certainly aren't so OMFG good that you *must* run them, but you're not going to do substantially better).

disclaimer: I have not read the whole thread so excuse me if I'm repeating something that has been said already.

I agree that adding defense lets you play more aggressive thus letting you kill faster, and I agree that having smooth game-play makes up for the seconds you lose over a bit more offensive, but fragile setup, after all it's fun playing in a relaxed environment. I've been experimenting with both ends of the spectrum since the 7H patch day, and having a dedicated healer paired up with an ST whilst running two ROJ monks with various utility kills fast and the party's red bars won't even nudge. Even though running with little to no defense is a ton of fun I prefer a solid build.

This is the common stable build I often run on my warrior, when I'm playing as HB/WWA. With minor adjustments this build can take on any zone in the game (Reaper's can be changed for Life Transfer due to 12 spec in Blood for MoF. Soil for Slaver's, EOE & Dwayna's Kiss for DOA, MT/BT for UW, and so on).

I often find myself running with three necromancer heroes though. You can run insane builds on them due to Soul Reaping, if it wasn't their primary attribute I'd give more attention to other options. And Mark of Pain is often too good to pass on. I understand why necromancers aren't as appealing for the caster primary though.

Dedicated healers are often deemed bad, but in the areas where you require more than a copy of Spirit Light and Kaolai I prefer a dedicated healer because Domination mesmer / Channeling Ritualist -- even offensive Elementalist with direct heals will run over juice and cannot perform any offensive or defensive actions at all. But then again these areas are rare and extraordinary players can work their way through the areas without facing this energy issue, but these players are a rare commodity. This is one of the reasons why I have a strong liking to Necromancer backlines, but the one reason is how necromancer nukes (if you will) have 15-20-second cooldown. they have plenty of time to toss healing and protection spells around without having these spells clash with the offensive spells. a Me/Rt (for example) has several clashes due to fast recharges and after-cast delay.

ROJ monks make for good backline heroes as they are extremely flexible. The two bars I have in the screenshot can be made viable in every single 8-man area by swapping a skill or two: in zones without much conditions you can take out Smite Conditions out and put in DH/HD for additional redbarring, Guardian fits in as they already have 10 in protection due to SoA so surely you can hit 6s breakpoint for guardian as well. This is just an example and I'm sure most people who play with ROJ monks know how to optimize them for specific zones.

I could probably write more on this subject but it's late and I'm probably rambling on about a completely different topic than you are discussing at the moment.

@Kunder - I did Raisu HM without any IMS skills, myself has Hundred Blades, 3 frenzy HB heroes, 3 Dervishes with scythe attacks and wind prayer heals and an ST ritualist, in a bit over 12 minutes. No idea what this means to you, but to me it seems Raisu is not the ideal place for build testing. Especially since sub 9min runs are largely dictated by strategies and how well one chains Fall Back.

Kunder · May 07, 2011, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

@Kunder - I did Raisu HM without any IMS skills, myself has Hundred Blades, 3 frenzy HB heroes, 3 Dervishes with scythe attacks and wind prayer heals and an ST ritualist, in a bit over 12 minutes. No idea what this means to you, but to me it seems Raisu is not the ideal place for build testing. Especially since sub 9min runs are largely dictated by strategies and how well one chains Fall Back.

Sliver Armor + Auspicious parry. Thats your problem, I'm guessing. Fall Back is certainly a disparity, but not overly so (100% +33% IMS uptime won't knock off any more than a minute), and strategies aren't a huge factor I think. Unfortunately there isn't nearly an "ideal" place to test, Raisu is probably the closest since it has non-variable mobs, only 1 path, and you have to kill most of them to finish the mission.

Daesu · May 08, 2011, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Unfortunately there isn't nearly an "ideal" place to test, Raisu is probably the closest since it has non-variable mobs, only 1 path, and you have to kill most of them to finish the mission.

I disagree. Besides what Jack already mentioned, Raisu times greatly depends on the player knowing when to run and when to fight.

In situations when the player knows that the cut scene is just around the corner, it makes sense to just cast prots and run through to the cut scene rather than stay and fight the whole mob. This alone already makes a significant difference between the times regardless of builds. And of course builds with "Fall Back" are advantageous here too, especially if you decide to micro versus those who don't micro.

Furthermore, Raisu favors builds that are more offensive with less healing, because you already have Mhenlo and Danika to heal for you. The builds that do well in Raisu may leave you more vulnerable to strong degen outside of Raisu, since you won't have these 2 healers as part of your build.

A better way to test would be a number of HM places, each near a town, not just one particular area, with different mobs that are characteristic of typical PvE encounters. For example, against melee groups, against ranger groups, against caster groups with elemental damage, against caster groups with armor ignoring damage, and against groups with lots of degen and hexes etc.

I usually choose HM Dalada Uplands just outside Doomlore shrine for the charr caster group, charr ranger group, the insects with Horai Wingshielder for hexes/degen. And HM Riven Earth just outside Rata Summ for the Raptors melee groups and the Angorodons for the armor ignoring groups.