Curse

Chthon · May 03, 2011, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Since Jeydra's little BDSM challenge, I have been meditating on why BDSM did not lose by a much larger margin, and why other (better) spirit+mesmer builds did as well as they did.

The point of my consternation has been that these builds lack offense to such a degree that they should not be as fast as they are. Spirits are single-target. Minion bombers are not huge DPS. Mesmers have bad recharges that leaves them with pretty low overall DPS. There's just not a lot of DPS. And yet, they move through content fast.

I think I have an answer.

But first, by way of background, I want to wax philosophic on a taxonomy of backlines for a moment. Imagine facing a mob of monsters with no offense on your team, only mitigation and healing. Now, let's assume that the monsters are unable to kill you, so this goes on forever. Imagine what the graph of the monsters' damage plotted over time would look like. Zoomed in, it's going to be full of peaks and valleys -- Rodgort's > peak; aftercast > valley; etc. Zoomed out, it's going to be a long flat line -- the monsters' average DPS. Now imagine another line plotted for your team's healing+mitigation over time. Again, it will be jagged with peaks and valleys in the close up, but a flat line in the distant view. Call it average M+HPS.

There are essentially four possible relationships between your party's average M+HPS and the monsters' average DPS.

The first is a situation where your M+HPS is not even close to a match for the monsters' DPS, and the party dies almost instantly. You might call this the "fail backline" or the "PUG backline." I'm going to call it a Type 0 backline.

The second is a situation where monster DPS exceeds M+HPS, but not by very much. So lifebars head south, but not rapidly. There is time to kill a monster or two and reduce the monsters' DPS so that it falls below M+HPS before anyone gets killed. Everything works out in the end provided that (1) monster DPS starts out at a reasonable level (ie no overaggro) and (2) your offense is able to eliminate a couple monsters promptly. I'm going to call this a Type 1 backline.

The third is a situation where M+HPS exceeds monster DPS, but only because of deficit spending of resources (usually energy). Once those resources run out, the situation reverts to a Type 1 or even Type 0. I'm going to call this Type 2. For practical purposes it behaves like a Type 1 with a longer time window to get the kills you need to reduce monster DPS to a manageable level.

Finally, fourth situation is where M+HPS flat out exceeds monster DPS at the natural resource rate (4 pips of energy regen for the most part). In this case, no one ever dies, except to a spike. Call this Type 3.

Most of us learned to play GW with a Type 1/Type 2 backline. There's a few reasons for this: Mhenlo and Lina aren't capable of anything more, and most of us got our start with Mhenlo and Lina, or with even worse PUG monks. Prophecies mobs tend to have few individual monsters, which makes Type1/Type 2 work quite well most of the time. Type1/Type 2 leaves the most room for offense (aside from Type 0, which doesn't count because it simply dies), and everyone loves offense. As long as Type1/Type2 works, bringing any more defense/healing feels like a waste of space.

OK, now back to BDSM and other (better) spirit+mesmer builds:

It's been said that the great advantage of BDSM is that you can aggro everything on the map, go afk for a cup of tea, and not die. It's darned near foolproof. In short, it's a Type 3 backline. To some degree, this extends to all spirit+mesmer builds -- there's an awful lot of mitigation and often a lot of healing too.

My hypothesis is that spirit+mesmer builds perform well speed-wise because they make up time lost to poor kill speed through overaggroing. Time is saved by not pulling, not waiting for mobs to patrol where you want them, not repositioning to approach from a better angle, never retreating, and so on. Apparently you can often save enough time by "playing sloppy but not dying" like this to offset your worse kill speed as compared to a more DPS-oriented team.

The practical application of all this is that there might be something to be said for running Type 3 backlines in general. Now, I'm not advocating for BDSM here (or even spirit+mesmer in general). There's other ways to make a Type 3 backline. For example, for the past few days I've been running a ST + E/Mo + SoS/Resto backline with the other five slots, including the player, running almost pure offense. The results have been insane.

I'm aware this flies in the face of the old maxim "bring as little healing as you can get away with without dying, and everything else should be offense," as well as the emerging maxim that "more than one dedicated backline character in a 7H team is a waste of space." Oh well, both conventional wisdom and myself have been wrong before from time to time.

(I have two requests to make of those who may think I've gone of my rocker here: (1) Try it before posting. Take ST + E/Mo + SoS/Resto + 5 synergized offensive builds and go try something hard. Go deliberately overaggro. (2) Try to provide some plausible alternative explanation for the results of Jeydra's BDSM challenge. Specifically, why did so many low-DPS builds do so well? (Or in the case of BDSM, so "not as badly as expected."))

Gabs88 · May 03, 2011, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Simply put, the better you can control aggro the more efficient single target is over AoE. If you're an experienced player and proficient in flagging heroes, body-blocking, pulling and balling up your enemies then a team based around a high powered AoE spike is going to perform a lot better then one based around single target damage as the damage potential of AoE spells is a lot higher.

But, if you don't care about pulling mobs and just charge straight in without waiting. A team with a larger margin for error is going to be a lot more efficient.

Some teams are also tied up around your own primary profession and\or play-style. If you have 2 elementalist heroes and 1 elementalist player, those three are a lot more likely to stand in the same location then if you play a ritualist, ranger, monk or dervish. And can therefore benefit by buffing each other with EBSOH, EBSOW.

If you really want accurate results on best build, you'd need at least 20-30 people doing the same missions with 4-5 different kinds of builds and primary classes and doing it in the exact same way every time. But even then over the course of 5 mission completions you're going to learn some new tricks in order to make it faster and hence the results will be soiled again.

chullster · May 03, 2011, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Request Anet ban the BDSM guild tag as they decided to ban my girlfriends fully kitted out guild with that EXACT tag.

This was after she contected anet on another issue, they saw the tag, banned it, QQ.

FoxBat · May 03, 2011, 08:48 AM // 08:48

I'm wondering what exactly you have in mind for a hero that does more average AoE than a mesmer without requiring a melee player to proc off of. I'm sure EFJack would've run 4 mesmers instead of FoC necs if mercs were allowed in that UW "contest", and we have a crazy fast DoA clear resting mostly on mesmer hero damage as well. The shutdown is a significant consideration, but the raw damage is pretty high versus the alternatives.

Gabs88 · May 03, 2011, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

and we have a crazy fast DoA clear resting mostly on mesmer hero damage as well.

Actually I don't think you understand the way that spike works though. The mes-spike there relies more on EoE then anything else because of the huge amounts of mobs pulled.

DoA mes-spike:
1. Deep freeze mobs in place
2. Lower targets HP thru Esurge \ Unnatural Signet \ Cry of Pain
3. Kill some targets off with spiritual pain \ empathy \ backfire \ VoR
4. Set of an EoE chain finishing off the rest.

So in short, if you take away the EoE then it's far less impressive. And EoE isn't something you just happen to use in general PVE either. And also it relies on perfectly balled enemies. For obvious reasons those are a lot easier to kill with AoE then single target damage

Btw, not saying mesmers are bad in any way.

Chthon · May 03, 2011, 03:56 PM // 15:56

1. Thread is about backlines. Why posts focusing on mesmer damage? Or AoE vs single-target damage? Or damage at all?

2. Spirit+mesmer mesmers tend to be Panic and Inept, not damage elites. Even if you think E-surge heroes qualify as high DPS (I disagree, but whatever), Panic heroes are not.

3. Even damage elites are, as Gabbs points out, spike builds, not DPS builds. You blow everything up in one shot without giving it a chance to ever hit you back. Recharge and backline are irrelevant as long as you don't screw up. In that sense, it's a completely different animal. In the "no mercs, no SF-tanks" world, recharge lowers mesmer hero DPS and backline does matter. Which brings me back around to point 1, so.... thoughts about backlines, anyone?

EFGJack · May 03, 2011, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Panic offers hidden DPS (Joke from a certain MMORPG). Every prot, res or heal interrupted equals damage done by the same amount the interrupted spell would have healed or prevented. Same goes for interrupted damage spells; hidden protection. FYI. don't overlook this.

Plutoman · May 03, 2011, 04:35 PM // 16:35

The thread is not necessarily solely about backlines, because the builds mentioned seem to be mentioned incorrectly. The mesmer groups typically have a significantly higher dps due to hitting multiple targets, in addition to high damage spells, and contrary to descriptions, short recharges courtesy of fast casting.

An ineptitude mesmer is going to have a comparable single target DPS to any melee, and much higher if just two targets are hit. An E-Surge mesmer involves significant amounts of DPS because E-Surge is on a 10 sec recharge, mistrust, 8 seconds, CoF, 8 seconds, unnatural, 10 seconds. The group of skills is relatively spammable when combined.

When combined into an area like Raisu, where it is relatively easy to hit multiple targets (most areas, in fact, are easy to hit at least two targets, frequently 3), the 'low-dps' team builds aren't, in fact, low dps. I'm not personally a fan of spirits, but the spirits can put out single target pressure that is good for the end of the battle.

Regarding backlines; I've always played, once I could, with a type 3 backline as you would describe it. From my early prophecies experiences, I found that I rarely had enough healing to survive due to Mhenlo and Lino. Thus, once I had heroes, I made sure I had plenty. Slower but surefire. If I could kill two groups at once - I typically did. Which correspondingly does cut off time, as you've predicted. My personal experience in the matter.

Now; there's a lot to be said for DPS-Oriented teams. 5 mesmer combo's go fast - other combinations work well, too. They can move faster and more effectively, with a higher margin for skill level cutting back on time. However, being more damage oriented, when the number of enemies is more than the damage can knock back fast, they are fragile under high pressure.

The points you are bringing up are that mesmer and spirits aren't as effective damage; I would argue that they are. Mesmer damage can synergize remarkably well, too.

Personally (and to get back to backlines), I would disagree with only bringing one backline. I think the extra support from doubling the backline is more effective than adding a small percentage of firepower to the offensive line. In many areas I use a triple-backline, other areas I use a double backline (BiP Resto + UA Heal/Prot). There's multiple ways to make a secure backline, and it provides a safety, a manner of guaranteed damage.

I'd add that the use of a solid backline means heroes will not ever be dead and unable to produce DPS; therefore, the DPS is guaranteed. Using a fragile backline in the use of high DPS means lost DPS when any single hero dies, or if the party wipes and has to respawn.

I'm pretty tired and woke up early, so my points are messy and out of order, but hopefully not incomprehensible - forgive me for that. Heck, they may not be entirely valid, correct me if I'm completely wrong on anything.

Daesu · May 03, 2011, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

recharge lowers mesmer hero DPS

Don't forget FC reduces recharge of mesmer spells now.

Plutoman · May 03, 2011, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Furthermore don't forget FC reduces recharge of mesmer spells now.

That was included - example, e-surge is 15seconds normally.

SmokingHotImolation · May 03, 2011, 05:08 PM // 17:08

If you consider mesmers (Esurge, Panic and Ineptitude), Rits (SoS and SoGM) and a minion bomber to lack offense, what do you consider a good generic dmg bar? im curious

I don't use discord, but i certainly do rock mesmer and rit heroes at almost all time.

Chthon · May 03, 2011, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

Panic offers hidden DPS (Joke from a certain MMORPG). Every prot, res or heal interrupted equals damage done by the same amount the interrupted spell would have healed or prevented. Same goes for interrupted damage spells; hidden protection. FYI. don't overlook this.

This is absolutely true and absolutely not overlooked. However, Panic rarely gets to deal pseudo-damage because few monsters prot/heal worth a darn to start with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

An ineptitude mesmer is going to have a comparable single target DPS to any melee, and much higher if just two targets are hit.

Are your melee really that weak? I'm not sure what goes into your Inept builds, but I'll take a guess. Assume FC takes the recharge down to 10. Inept @16 is then around 14DPS. Clumsy is maybe another 10DPS. Wandering Eye is maybe another 11DPS. Am I leaving anything big out here? That's not a lot. It's respectable, no doubt, but not really comparable with buffed melee.

(A point here about cognitive bias. We tend to perceive mesmers as doing bigger damage than they do because the effect is "flashy" -- it's a big packet of damage usually paired with an interrupt or other noticeable visual effect.)

Anyway, I really would like to get back on topic. Backlines people, backlines!

maxxfury · May 03, 2011, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

(A point here about cognitive bias. We tend to perceive mesmers as doing bigger damage than they do because the effect is "flashy" -- it's a big packet of damage usually paired with an interrupt or other noticeable visual effect.)

Ironically that's the opposite of the old "public" view on the mesmer from back in the day... "didnt see you do jack!!! waste of a slot! /kick" I guess if you spike everything in one clump with a few long cooldown heavy nukes..dps means a lot less than it does on paper..

So my quote isnt offtopic..

The disco backline doesnt do that bad is because there really is only so much healing you do need with enough meat shields and guff, and over the 3 necros you have plenty to keep you goin, and when your not needing the heals they can do damage to speed up those times when you are already steamrolling...

Although this is as mention, more likely due to the fact you can tailor your team with massive offence WAY more now than you could in the h&h days.. I think its more about the resto and soul reaping with the Minion bomber/master lite way more than the disco portion. Disco was a "safe" setup due to been able to take some offence and defence in your cutomisdable slots instead of having to rely on either damage heros and having crap hench healers or taking defensive heroes and having crap damage hench..

Could also to be to do with you only needing so much offence too, with the hp levels of the enemies, the more damage dealing you add the less benefit you see with diminishing boosts vs the red bars dropping fast as hell anyway, and any more damage output you add not dropping kill times by a significant amount.. *especially when you are talking an average player who wont have beastly micro skills et to really take advantage of the setup with slightly quicker kills..

Maybe its that once you hit a certain level of damage you level out on a plateau where more damage just doesnt impact kill speeds as much as the previous DD party members did? leading to BDSM hitting close to the balance to be on this plateau?

Plutoman · May 04, 2011, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Are your melee really that weak? I'm not sure what goes into your Inept builds, but I'll take a guess. Assume FC takes the recharge down to 10. Inept @16 is then around 14DPS. Clumsy is maybe another 10DPS. Wandering Eye is maybe another 11DPS. Am I leaving anything big out here? That's not a lot. It's respectable, no doubt, but not really comparable with buffed melee.

Not bias, fact.

With your numbers right there, that's 35 DPS from 3 skills, plus blind and shutdown on attacks. On two melee, that's 70 DPS.

In actuality.. with the addition of signet of clumsiness, ineptitude does ~14.13 damage, Clumsiness does ~18.1, Wandering Eye does ~14.3, and Signet of Clumsiness does 7.875 exact.

54.4 damage added up, per second, to a single melee. In hitting two people, it's doing over 108 DPS, with potentials for much higher. And in executing all 4 skills, the mesmer spends only slightly over 6 seconds. And it has blind to add to it, along with a knockdown every 8 seconds. It's more than respectable, I wouldn't leave it behind when going up against melee.

Each E-Surge does 43 damage per second + potential for more with wastrel's demise (I don't include that in the calculations), and to nearby range.

Going back to backlines.. I do very much think it's dependent on the map as to what type of backline you should use. In addition to this, it depends on the player's preferred style.

I dislike seeing heroes, or me, die, even when it is inconsequential and in fact faster while having it happen. So I run a more solid backline than may be necessary. I've gradually worked away from it, but the results are mixed. At least one dedicated healer is perfectly fine because in any battle, the healer will usually be working, or if the healer isn't, then the energy can be used later when it's more vital and it's not a bad idea to save it.

I'd go for a stable backline, because then it's a guarantee you'll make it through. There's no annoyances of having to restart or respawn.

Chthon · May 04, 2011, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

In actuality.. with the addition of signet of clumsiness, ineptitude does ~14.13 damage, Clumsiness does ~18.1, Wandering Eye does ~14.3, and Signet of Clumsiness does 7.875 exact.

54.4 damage added up, per second, to a single melee.

That sounded a little off. I think you forgot to include cast times into cycle times.

Assuming 16 Illusion and 11 FC, I get:

Inept: 142 / (.6 + (15*.67)) = 13.33...DPS
Clumsy: 97 / (1.2 + (8 * .67)) = ~14.79 DPS
WEye: 115 / (1.2 + (12 * .67)) = ~12.45 DPS
SigClumsy: 63 / ((.25 * .67) + 8) = ~7.71 DPS
------
Total: 48.28 DPS

Which is, again, not bad, but not fantastic. What is fantastic -- if you need it -- is the damage mitigation from blind, KD, and interrupted attacks. And the combination of great mitigation and decent damage makes it a very solid build all-around -- again, assuming that combination is what your party happens to need.

But what does this have to do with the price of eggs? As best I can tell, there's an unspoken line of reasoning that goes: "Mesmers have great damage. That explains why spirit+mesmer teams did well in the BDSM challenge. Backline has nothing to do with it." Which explains why people keep talking about mesmer damage no matter how hard I try to steer them off of it. I don't buy it. Particularly in the case of BDSM itself, the damage output is just too anemic to be the only factor explaining its not-awful performance.

(I'm not even going to talk about e-surge since it's just not relevant. No one used e-surge in the BDSM challenge, and no one is arguing that a bunch of them together is not a very powerful spike build.)

Plutoman · May 04, 2011, 03:31 AM // 03:31

I didn't include cast times into cycle times, no. I apologize for that ^ It's still excellent DPS considering that all of it is AoE, in addition to the support. You brought up the cognitive bias of mesmer damage - I run two e-surge mesmers typically, in addition to the ineptitude.

The reason that the spirit + mesmer teams did well is because of the large combination of an excellent DPS, excellent mitigation, spirit walls, spirit's clean-up single target DPS, and a backline that isn't necessarily important considering the amount of mitigation and damage prevention.

It's definitely not solely because of the damage, and if it was only damage, it would be much, much weaker. The reason they do, however, perform so well is because they provide excellent damage in addition to the mitigation. A buffed melee cannot provide the same mitigation that panic can provide, or blind.

Discordway initially, before 7 heroes, proved effective because it combined effective healing with the mitigation of minions, along with a decent overall damage output.

These spirit + mesmer teams can take it to the next level, and synergize a few damage builds with the mitigation, support, and damage, of the mesmers and ritualists. It's not so much that going all out damage will win the day; it's that these new mesmer builds provide not only damage, but damage prevention and reduction. They are part of the support and the spike. The rit's, through spirits, provide both.

The idea behind it is that while if you have two heroes, and each one spec'd to do one certain thing excellently - if you have a hero that can do both of them respectfully well, sometimes even near-excellence in itself, then you are better off bringing two of that style.

It's a crude analogy - but in essence, these builds can multi-task (provide damage and mitigation) without losing much, if at all, effectiveness in the multi-tasking.

That would be my take on it.

LexTalionis · May 04, 2011, 06:34 AM // 06:34

I don't usually talk DPS because spiking is more important, but did you know Wastrel's Demise does 33 DPS to single targets? Wastrel's Worry does slightly less but goes up to 60+ish DPS on stuff with Natural Resistance. Overload does ridiculous DPS if the condition is met and Spiritual Pain is 79 damage on a 5 second recharge.

(The condition for Wastrel's sounds unreliable, but if you Mesway with lots of Psychic Instability, Panic or Shared Burden or even Chaos storm to make things flee instead of doing anything important, it's extremely easy to pull off)

And here's the thing: You don't have to run to the enemy to do this damage. I've been experimenting with trying to make a viable Assassin Hero build and one of the biggest issues is that without shadowstep, by the time you run to the enemy, the mesmers have severely maimed nearly everything. You don't even need a Line of Sight, so you can do a lot of dirty wall nuking tricks. (especially with Wastrel's stuff)

The biggest problem with melee is that keeping melee clean to do its damage is a royal hassle that takes up a heck of a lot of skill slots. Take a bunch of melee heroes into Shards of Orr if you want to see what I mean. Or go fight on ice/against Ice Imps.

I don't typically use ineptitude except in special cases, but in Hard Mode, it's pretty difficult to come up with a melee build that can outdps Empathy+Calculated Risk. Or Frustration + Daze.

Edit:P.S.: Related - Arenanet, would you please be so kind as to split all shadowstep skills for PvE/PvP and halve the recharge or something? 30-45 seconds for a teleport in PvE is a bit silly, especially in HM where enemies react by kiting. Assassins have plenty of issues, but this one is just unreasonably stupid.

majoho · May 04, 2011, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

I don't usually talk DPS because spiking is more important, but did you know Wastrel's Demise does 33 DPS to single targets? Wastrel's Worry does slightly less but goes up to 60+ish DPS on stuff with Natural Resistance. Overload does ridiculous DPS if the condition is met and Spiritual Pain is 79 damage on a 5 second recharge.

Theoretical DPS values alone are pointless without actual testing.

The #1 DPS test is figuring out what spells heroes are using effectively.

LexTalionis · May 04, 2011, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Theoretical DPS values alone are pointless without actual testing.

The #1 DPS test is figuring out what spells heroes are using effectively.

Which is why I test extensively and as far as I've observed, Heroes are very good at Wastrel's. Maybe a bit TOO overzealous, even. And they're very very good at Overload and generally give it low priority unless it can trigger the additional effect. So what's your point?

majoho · May 04, 2011, 12:19 PM // 12:19

What's with the hostile tone?

I based my very general response on what have been posted here before which was that Heroes tend to not use the Wastrel skills right.