Curse

Daesu · May 08, 2011, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Armor of Unfeeling affects 1 Shelter every 20 seconds, giving (best case) 5 more hits every 20 seconds (actual number will be less - using it on a spirit which isn't at full health will give dramatically fewer hits), but it is precastable and gets slightly better if you run more than just Shelter.

Actually AoU lasts much longer than its recharge of 20s at decent communing level, has the other side benefit of making your spirits (which are lower level) immune to critical attacks, and it cannot be stripped.

Quote:

I don't ask my Soul Twisting Ritualist to tank, in heavy pressure with massive amounts of large AoE damage, you're probably going to end up flagging him somewhere far away and out of sight anywise, so 40 more health as opposed to a major rune is easy for me to give up. Practically speaking, putting Mistrust, blind or an interrupt on your ST ritualist is going to prevent more damage to your spirits than Armor of Unfeeling will. Just opinion, though. It's a question of opportunity cost. If you have the space for it and can't think of anything better, take it.

Practically speaking mistrust, blind, and interrupt are insufficient to protect your level 11-13 Shelter from being killed in HM. There is not much of an opportunity cost for skills if you dont bring AoU on your ST rit. Most other secondary profession skills are better carried by a necro anyway.

LexTalionis · May 08, 2011, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Incorrect. It only lasts for spirits already created at the time you used it. The instant you need to resummon Shelter, the new spirit created does not benefit from AoU. This is an issue because it has a 20 second recharge and is NOT a spell so - spell recharge does nothing. (HSR will)

Technically speaking, if a monster is going to drop Churning Earth on top of Shelter, a way of stopping that is going to do far more than AoU ever will.

Dzjudz · May 08, 2011, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

(HSR will)

HSR mods only ever affect spells. Other sources can bring recharge down (e.g. Essence of Celerity).

LexTalionis · May 08, 2011, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

HSR mods only ever affect spells. Other sources can bring recharge down (e.g. Essence of Celerity).

Well, that makes AoU even worse then.

Daesu · May 08, 2011, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Incorrect. It only lasts for spirits already created at the time you used it. The instant you need to resummon Shelter, the new spirit created does not benefit from AoU. This is an issue because it has a 20 second recharge and is NOT a spell so - spell recharge does nothing. (HSR will)

That is not what I said. AoU lasts for 33s at level 14 communing, so even if it recharges at 20s, its effect still lasts for 33s.

However, the important point is how long would Shelter last? That depends on the area, situation, and AoU would make it last longer when used at the right time.

Instead of bringing skills like Aegis and SoA on your ST rit, it makes more sense for them to be brought by a necro hero and have your ST rit bring AoU instead to extend the life of both your Shelter and Displacement. Even if AoU is only used once, per mob, to double the life of both Shelter and Displacement and making them immune to critical attacks, it is already worth a skill slot.

Voodoo Rage · May 08, 2011, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Now given, proper tactics should not have your spirits taking any direct damage but it should be mentioned that if a spirit is attacked they are prone to critical hits by a high level foe since there is such a big level differential.

I really don't see any downside to bringing AoU. It's cheap, does not have a big casting time, and clearly does have a benefit. The ST bar is fairly compressed anyway (you really don't want your ST bar full of a bunch of secondary skills) so it's not like you are really hurting for an extra skill slot.

Daesu · May 08, 2011, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

Now given, proper tactics should not have your spirits taking any direct damage but it should be mentioned that if a spirit is attacked they are prone to critical hits by a high level foe since there is such a big level differential.

Exactly!

AoU addresses this by making your spirits immune to critical attacks, while at the same time extending the useful lifetime of both your Shelter and Displacement.

LexTalionis · May 08, 2011, 06:02 PM // 18:02

If something is attacking Shelter in HM, it being immune to critical hits is the LEAST of your concerns.

Look, if Shelter dies in 3 seconds after Armor of Unfeeling was used, your AoU was useful for all of 3 seconds. It's not going to last 33 seconds unless you're in an area so light in pressure that you probably didn't need Shelter in the first place. I've already told you my *opinion* about AoU and why I find AoU unnecessary (there is an opportunity cost of a myriad of skills I find more useful), but that's just my viewpoint.

If you still want to bring it, nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise. I don't really want to rain on your parade, so go ahead and bring it already!

Daesu · May 08, 2011, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

If something is attacking Shelter in HM, it being immune to critical hits is the LEAST of your concerns.

Look, if Shelter dies in 3 seconds after Armor of Unfeeling was used, your AoU was useful for all of 3 seconds.

If Shelter dies in 3 seconds even with AoU, then your Shelter would be dying in about 1 second without AoU. If your Shelter dies in 1 second, you have a lot more other problems regardless of AoU.

Quote:

It's not going to last 33 seconds unless you're in an area so light in pressure that you probably didn't need Shelter in the first place. I've already told you my *opinion* about AoU and why I find AoU unnecessary (there is an opportunity cost of a myriad of skills I find more useful), but that's just my viewpoint.

AoU, like both Shelter and Displacement can be pre-cast before you pull mobs in. Like I have said, even if AoU is useful for the length of your Shelter and Displacement per mob, it has already worth a skill slot.

Your opportunity cost of using Aegis and SoA on your rit, instead of your necro, is just not as worth it but that is also just my opinion.

Quote:

If you still want to bring it, nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise. I don't really want to rain on your parade, so go ahead and bring it already!

Then you didn't have to reply to my post did you?

heavenlight · May 09, 2011, 12:15 AM // 00:15

After reading the thread, I got interested and started experimenting with different builds. I started with a bar with just ST, Shelter, AoU and Boon of creation which left me with 4 slots to fill. There are two problems with filling the slots:

1) It is very important to keep the energy up, so unless you have a BiP necro, putting on energy intensive spells is out of the question. Aegis and SoA are ok, but in intense and prolong fights, the energy issue come up eventually, at least for me it does.

2) Are there any useful viable skills around?
One option is to go /Me and go 10 dom with signet of disruption, signet of weariness, signet of distraction, guilt or unnatural signet or go 10 insp with power drain, leech signet, WNWN, hex eater signet, drain enchantment, ether signet, drain delusions, or channeling.

Another alternative is to just spec 10+1 into channeling and get access to spirit siphon. Spirit siphon allows you to be more generous with energy and you can put on lamentation, binding chains, Ancestor's Rage, Splinter, Gaze from beyond, renewing surge, or essence strike.

All the skills mentioned are what I have considered, and they might be better skills around that I may have missed.

I find that /Me gives my rit a more active feel to it instead of standing around wanding. Noticeably more damage prevention can be observed in battles. While speccing into channeling is ok at most, since the damage isn't all that great @11 channeling.

Weighing the alternatives against the option of bringing shelter + union + displacement and actively micro-ing which to disable for key battles, I would say bringing on displacement (disabled except for key battles since I usually bring an MM) and going /Me with either dom or insp seems to work best for me. But that's just me and you should test it out with your own hero team to find the best results.

Dzjudz · May 09, 2011, 12:44 AM // 00:44

The few times I take a Shelter I do the channeling option heaven: ST, Shelter, Dissonance, Optional Spirit, Spirit Siphon, Splinter Weapon, Ancestor's Rage, Boon of Creation. Seems to work best.

LexTalionis · May 09, 2011, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

The few times I take a Shelter I do the channeling option heaven: ST, Shelter, Dissonance, Optional Spirit, Spirit Siphon, Splinter Weapon, Ancestor's Rage, Boon of Creation. Seems to work best.

I change around my builds fairly often, but I've tried this and I can confirm that it is solid. I usually bring a Channeling ritualist to do Splinter, though. I also prefer Shadowsong to Dissonance (since I run Mesway and Shadowsong can protect Shelter). If you're doing Channeling though, dropping Communing from unmodified 12 to 11 might be worthwhile.

heavenlight · May 09, 2011, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

The few times I take a Shelter I do the channeling option heaven: ST, Shelter, Dissonance, Optional Spirit, Spirit Siphon, Splinter Weapon, Ancestor's Rage, Boon of Creation. Seems to work best.

Interesting, now that just gave me a new idea to modify my build!

I frequently run 2xST rit, one offensive and one defensive. I choose ST over SoGM on the offensive rit because SoGM seriously lacks in mobility and heroes don't use it well. Since the offensive rit frequently does nothing but wand after casting all her spirits, I should be able to split the defensive/offensive spirits on the two of them so that I can get the same firepower while having a reduced downtime in def spirits. Off to experiments I go.

Dzjudz · May 09, 2011, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

I change around my builds fairly often, but I've tried this and I can confirm that it is solid. I usually bring a Channeling ritualist to do Splinter, though. I also prefer Shadowsong to Dissonance (since I run Mesway and Shadowsong can protect Shelter). If you're doing Channeling though, dropping Communing from unmodified 12 to 11 might be worthwhile.

Yeah I almost only take this build when I'm running SoS myself, so there's no other channeling hero to put splinter on (and I don't have room for it myself

).

I think I run 11+1+1 Com, 11+1 Spawn, 10+1 Chan, but this can probably be improved to meet certain breakpoints for hits, haven't bothered looking into it too much.

DokkyDok · May 09, 2011, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Just run the generic SoGM rit but with ST as its elite and Shelter over Dissonance.
Microing is lame.

FoxBat · May 09, 2011, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Found an interesting alternative if you're tired of shelter going on recharge when using multiple spirits. Equip your hero with a "brawn not brains" inscription on a wand or spear, and put a shield in their offhand. That will give them 25e before morale. As shelter costs 25e, this makes it almost impossible for them to cast it without soul twisting active. The energy savings on not casting 25e spirits also more than makes up for the smaller pool.

Voodoo Rage · May 09, 2011, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Found an interesting alternative if you're tired of shelter going on recharge when using multiple spirits. Equip your hero with a "brawn not brains" inscription on a wand or spear, and put a shield in their offhand. That will give them 25e before morale. As shelter costs 25e, this makes it almost impossible for them to cast it without soul twisting active. The energy savings on not casting 25e spirits also more than makes up for the smaller pool.

Wow, very clever. I'll give it a try.

Wenspire · May 09, 2011, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavenlight

1) It is very important to keep the energy up, so unless you have a BiP necro, putting on energy intensive spells is out of the question. Aegis and SoA are ok, but in intense and prolong fights, the energy issue come up eventually, at least for me it does.

Energetic Was Lee Sa works well for me for the extra EN.

FoxBat · May 09, 2011, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Energetic Was Lee Sa works well for me for the extra EN.

Don't heroes near always drop it *immediately* instead of waiting out the regen?

LexTalionis · May 09, 2011, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Don't heroes near always drop it *immediately* instead of waiting out the regen?

Depends how much energy they have left, but generally, yes; if they're at 10 energy, they'll spend 10 energy to cast it and then go "Oh, I'm out of energy, better drop this". If they're at high energy after Lee Sa was cast, they'll hold it instead.