Curse

reaper with no name · May 07, 2011, 07:16 AM // 07:16

I've seen quite a few people say that on a soul twisting hero, shelter should be the only defensive spirit used. So my question is, why? What's wrong with displacement and union?

Aljasha · May 07, 2011, 08:09 AM // 08:09

I guess there's nothing wrong with the other spirits in functionality. However you need nothing more than Shelter in most areas.

mugen · May 07, 2011, 08:39 AM // 08:39

shelter = unique
displacement = great

union is far in comparaison, cool but not as impressive effect... -20 dmgs .. when 5 mobs are hitting you @ 200 dmgs, doesnt help too much. The other does. Most team can work without it. (i am ising it, i dont think its bad)

LexTalionis · May 07, 2011, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Soul Twisting only gives you three charges every 15 seconds. When running a Soul Twisting ritualist, you're primarily doing it for Shelter as heroes aren't particularly good with Protective Spirit and Shelter can deal with rapid target shifts or AoE damage hitting your entire party, which Protective Spirit can't do very well. Given that in some Hard mode areas, things are hitting for over 100-400 damage, Shelter is the most reliable way of reducing this damage to manageable packets and it is universal (and usually prevents more damage than Union will).

Given these suppositions, the function of the ST ritualist is to keep Shelter up all the time. If you fill the bar with other spirits, there's a chance that they'll use up all 3 ST charges with Shelter > Union > Displacement, then cast Shelter without Soul Twisting and have it go on a 45 second cooldown, and this risk is not one people are fond of taking.

Personally, I find that two of the three spirits are manageable for the most part without causing severe "Oh no, Shelter is on cooldown again" issues except in very specific places (Forgewight HM, for example), but one would be the safest.

Skye Marin · May 07, 2011, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Union only prevents as much damage as it has life, which is about 275-350 HP at full communing, depending on spawning power. That amount of health is equal to a single low-spec heal party (at 12, one can provide over 500 HP), or a pair of Spirit Lights. Considering a single Union tick can prevent damage in the hundreds, you can see how Shelter is a much more efficient use of a Soul Twisting Charge, and that most healing spells are more efficient than Union for keeping your party alive.

Unlike most protection spells (Protective Spirit, Guardian, Shielding Hands, etc...), Union has a very set number of triggers before it expires, which makes it less valuable in high pressure, and easily comparable to simple healing.

I find Displacement handy to block disrupting attack skills. Having just the pair prevents a long recharge for Shelter. Besides, you can fill the bar with tons of other great Rit skills or off-profession things like Cry of Frustration, Strength of Honor, and Mark of Pain.

heavenlight · May 07, 2011, 06:51 PM // 18:51

I'll assume a ST defensive Rit spec 12+1+2 communing and 12+2 spawning power (the build at gwpvx has all sup runes).

A level 12 union spirit @14 SP has 374 hp. If you micro (which most players bringing ST def rit do) and use AoU pre-aggro it can take on 748 damage before dying. Heal party doesn't come anywhere near that level. Besides, heal party @15e is energy intense and at 2sec recharge, it's suicidal to put it on your hero bar.

It's also inappropriate to compare it to healing skills. Damage reduction is always superior to healing up lost health because your utilities heroes, instead of having to waste time healing, could instead focus on doing damage. Not to mention that you might get spiked and die before any healing could be done.

chuckles79 · May 07, 2011, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Shelter stops spikes and massive damage, Displacement gives blocking, and Union only deflects 15 damage.

If you are doing HM, Shelter is the only one that is going to make a big difference. Blocking is nice, but even AI physicals are gimped in HM. Union wouldn't make a dent in even the weakest of HM attacks, unless you are already protted up the wazoo.

Dzjudz · May 07, 2011, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Because if you have three spirits that all die quickly, ST can't keep up with the hero recasting them. Best solution is to just have Shelter (the best of the three, with Displacement coming in second and Union third) and then a couple of offensive spirits. Taking two (Shelter + Displacement) might work too. In addition, heroes don't know that Union should be cast after Shelter anyway.

Gabs88 · May 07, 2011, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Soul Twisting only has 3 charges \ 15 seconds. If you put Union + Shelter + Displacement on the same hero, it is likely to use all the spirits two times in the duration of 15 seconds while under heavy fire. Because they die very quickly when really needed. If a hero does that, the result will be that you get 3 defensive spirits on a 45 second cooldown and the hero which was godlike for the first 15 seconds of the fight. Is now useless.

If you put only one defencive spirit on it, it is far less likely to mess up.

reaper with no name · May 08, 2011, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Soul Twisting only gives you three charges every 15 seconds. When running a Soul Twisting ritualist, you're primarily doing it for Shelter as heroes aren't particularly good with Protective Spirit and Shelter can deal with rapid target shifts or AoE damage hitting your entire party, which Protective Spirit can't do very well. Given that in some Hard mode areas, things are hitting for over 100-400 damage, Shelter is the most reliable way of reducing this damage to manageable packets and it is universal (and usually prevents more damage than Union will).

Given these suppositions, the function of the ST ritualist is to keep Shelter up all the time. If you fill the bar with other spirits, there's a chance that they'll use up all 3 ST charges with Shelter > Union > Displacement, then cast Shelter without Soul Twisting and have it go on a 45 second cooldown, and this risk is not one people are fond of taking.

Personally, I find that two of the three spirits are manageable for the most part without causing severe "Oh no, Shelter is on cooldown again" issues except in very specific places (Forgewight HM, for example), but one would be the safest.

I find your argument highly convincing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Oh, and while I'm asking about these kinds of things, does Union trigger before or after Shelter? I won't be putting it on my ST hero any more, but I might fit it elsewhere on my heroes depending on the answer.

And what's this about heroes not using AoU properly? My initial Isle of the Nameless tests indicate they use it whenever one of their spirits are up even when no spirits or allies are being attacked.

Bandwagon · May 08, 2011, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Oh, and while I'm asking about these kinds of things, does Union trigger before or after Shelter? I won't be putting it on my ST hero any more, but I might fit it elsewhere on my heroes depending on the answer.

It all depends on which spirit is laid down first.

If Shelter followed by Union are laid down, the Shelter effect will apply first, followed by the Union effect, this is the most desirable result as it will limit the damage to 10% of max HP, then further reduce it by 15. If you lay down Union then Shelter, you have anti synergy, Union will apply its effect first then Shelter will apply its effect if the Union-d damage can be reduced further.

LexTalionis · May 08, 2011, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandwagon

It all depends on which spirit is laid down first.

If Shelter followed by Union are laid down, the Shelter effect will apply first, followed by the Union effect, this is the most desirable result as it will limit the damage to 10% of max HP, then further reduce it by 15. If you lay down Union then Shelter, you have anti synergy, Union will apply its effect first then Shelter will apply its effect if the Union-d damage can be reduced further.

Yeah well, don't rely on that. I've physically removed Union from my ST Ritualist's bars because I got sick of slapping her every time she prioritised Union over Shelter regardless of order on her bars.

I've taken to the idea of ST/Prot hybridisation using skills like Spirit Bond and Shield of Absorption (Spirit Bond will trigger regardless of whichever order you cast Shelter and Spirit Bond in and SoA is almost always cast after Shelter). Of course, it makes energy a bit tighter, but I can work around that.

Voodoo Rage · May 08, 2011, 05:53 AM // 05:53

OK, I'm sold. Took off Union, and went out and picked a fight with Myish Lady of the Lake and her mob. Not a single death. Very impressed.

Couple questions.

Armor of Unfeeling = ???. Supposedly it's a no-no but I just tested it in a few battles and the hero (Xandra if it matters) did just fine. She cast Shelter, Displacement and then AoU just fine. She would recast it during battle following the casting of a new spirit. I understand that there may be times when a hero will cast AoU, lose a spirit, and then throw the same spirit back up again (as she should).

Or does Armor of Unfeeling not benefit Shelter at all since it says that the spirit "loses health" (not taking damage); in which case only Displacement would get a benefit. (Does anyone know for sure or has tested how Armor of Unfeeling actually interacts with Shelter?)

How much E-management do you need if any? What is recommended (Energetic was Lee, Boon of Creation, Signet of Creation)?

What can you potentially have this hero doing other than just being a Shelter monkey? I was worried about any energy issues or bad AI prioritization, so I just threw in a couple monk hex removers.

Any love for Spirit's Gift?

For 60 seconds, whenever you create a creature, all allies near that creature gain 5...41...50 Health and lose 1 condition.

Seems like in theory every time your ST Hero throws up his spirit, you whole caster and spirit line gets a heal (and condition removal).

ErrantVenture · May 08, 2011, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

OK, I'm sold. Took off Union, and went out and picked a fight with Myish Lady of the Lake and her mob. Not a single death. Very impressed.

Couple questions.

Armor of Unfeeling = ???. Supposedly it's a no-no but I just tested it in a few battles and the hero (Xandra if it matters) did just fine. She cast Shelter, Displacement and then AoU just fine. She would recast it during battle following the casting of a new spirit. I understand that there may be times when a hero will cast AoU, lose a spirit, and then throw the same spirit back up again (as she should). Or does Armor of Unfeeling not benefit Shelter at all since it says that the spirit "loses health" (not taking damage); in which case only Displacement would get a benefit.

How much E-management do you need if any? What is recommended (Energetic was Lee, Boon of Creation, Signet of Creation)?

What can you potentially have this hero doing other than just being a Shelter monkey? I was worried about any energy issues or bad AI prioritization, so I just threw in a couple monk hex removers.

If you're looking for energy management, spirit siphon is your best bet. Even with a small (6-8 point) channeling spec) SS returns massive amounts of energy, especially with the constant stream of spirits a soul twister will be spitting out.

LexTalionis · May 08, 2011, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

OK, I'm sold. Took off Union, and went out and picked a fight with Myish Lady of the Lake and her mob. Not a single death. Very impressed.

Couple questions.

Armor of Unfeeling = ???. Supposedly it's a no-no but I just tested it in a few battles and the hero (Xandra if it matters) did just fine. She cast Shelter, Displacement and then AoU just fine. She would recast it during battle following the casting of a new spirit. I understand that there may be times when a hero will cast AoU, lose a spirit, and then throw the same spirit back up again (as she should).

Or does Armor of Unfeeling not benefit Shelter at all since it says that the spirit "loses health" (not taking damage); in which case only Displacement would get a benefit. (Does anyone know for sure or has tested how Armor of Unfeeling actually interacts with Shelter?)

How much E-management do you need if any? What is recommended (Energetic was Lee, Boon of Creation, Signet of Creation)?

What can you potentially have this hero doing other than just being a Shelter monkey? I was worried about any energy issues or bad AI prioritization, so I just threw in a couple monk hex removers.

Any love for Spirit's Gift?

For 60 seconds, whenever you create a creature, all allies near that creature gain 5...41...50 Health and lose 1 condition.

Seems like in theory every time your ST Hero throws up his spirit, you whole caster and spirit line gets a heal (and condition removal).

I can't speak for everyone, but if you're interested in my take on skills that work fine with Soul Twisting, I've got it up here http://www.gwpvx.com/User:Nanashi under the second from the top build. Note that Ghostly Haste only makes sense if you're bringing long recharge spells like Aegis and Shield of Absorption.

Spirit's Gift has a range of "nearby", which is not ideal for most battle situations.

Aegis isn't as counterproductive as it seems because it's not cast often and block rate is multiplicative, so even if it's up at the same time as Displacement, it will help slightly (and is more useful when Displacement falls or when you need to disable Displacement to prioritise Shelter.)

edit: Also note that since you only have 6 points of leeway unless you're willing to drop Communing a little, Shouts (which are time efficient and great to get a little extra out of people with important time-consuming duties) aren't that great because Command isn't particularly good at 6. Still viable though. Armor of Unfeeling does work on life loss from Communing Spirits, but it's not particularly dramatic in terms of necessity. If you have Soul Twisting, 50% more HP for a spirit (best case scenario) is usually not worth a skill slot compared to just re-casting the spirit.

Daesu · May 08, 2011, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Armor of Unfeeling does work on life loss from Communing Spirits, but it's not particularly dramatic in terms of necessity. If you have Soul Twisting, 50% more HP for a spirit (best case scenario) is usually not worth a skill slot compared to just re-casting the spirit.

Even with ST, you are limited to its 15s recharge relying on it to recast Shelter. At 14 communing and 13 spawning, your shelter can only last about 7 hard hits on your party assuming Shelter itself is not being attacked. A single AoU can expand Shelter to support about 14 hard hits, so I dont see why AoU is not worth a skill slot.

LexTalionis · May 08, 2011, 09:42 AM // 09:42

You can do Shelter 3 times within those 15 seconds. If your Shelter is dying every 5 seconds, you have bigger issues to worry about than Armor of Unfeeling.

Still, if you like it, use it. I see no empirical difference whether I use it or not, so I don't (Armor of Unfeeling only affects spirits that are already out, so all you're getting is the equivalent of 5 hits ASSUMING the spirit was at full life). Also, ST should be running Communing at 16, so you get more like 10 hits, since you're using a minimum of 12 Spawning Power.

Gabs88 · May 08, 2011, 09:47 AM // 09:47

IMO running ST with +1+2 communing and +2 Spawnpower is better, 14 is a breakpoint for boon of creation (6e instead of 5) so it is practically a must and the additional 1 point of communing doesn't give much.

Daesu · May 08, 2011, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

You can do Shelter 3 times within those 15 seconds. If your Shelter is dying every 5 seconds, you have bigger issues to worry about than Armor of Unfeeling.

Depends on how many spirits you have with your ST rit. If you have Shelter+Displacement, you can only do Shelter 2 times within those 15 seconds. Furthermore, Shelter itself can be attacked and your party can be struck by strong AoE. If I can effectively double the life of both my Shelter and my Displacement with only one skill slot, why not?

Quote:

Still, if you like it, use it. I see no empirical difference whether I use it or not, so I don't (Armor of Unfeeling only affects spirits that are already out, so all you're getting is the equivalent of 5 hits ASSUMING the spirit was at full life). Also, ST should be running Communing at 16, so you get more like 10 hits, since you're using a minimum of 12 Spawning Power.

Whether AoU is worth bringing or not would also depend on the area and the situation. If I remember correctly, you are only getting 2 more hits in, so about 9 hits with 16 to communing and 13 spawning power. For that you have to take a 75hp loss, whereas AoU would grant you more than just those 2 hits, even with a minor communing rune. AoU is currently underrated.

LexTalionis · May 08, 2011, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

IMO running ST with +1+2 communing and +2 Spawnpower is better, 14 is a breakpoint for boon of creation (6e instead of 5) so it is practically a must and the additional 1 point of communing doesn't give much.

Some simple math -

Assuming 12 Spawning Power, 15>16 bumps the spirit of Shelter from level 12 to 13, 15 has 45 health loss on a 355 hp spirit = 8 hits before death. 16 has 43 health loss on a 385 health spirit = 9 hits before death. 15 is valid, but that's what you're giving up. (3 hits per 15 seconds and spirit has less armor and takes more damage from monsters))

Armor of Unfeeling affects 1 Shelter every 20 seconds, giving (best case) 5 more hits every 20 seconds (actual number will be less - using it on a spirit which isn't at full health will give dramatically fewer hits), but it is precastable and gets slightly better if you run more than just Shelter.

That's the math. Whether stuff is worth it or not is entirely subjective.

Edit: Since you appended that section on above:

Armor of Unfeeling isn't underrated nor overrated, it does what it does. If it applied to every single spirit summoned within those 20 seconds it's cooling down in, I would think it essential. It doesn't.

I don't ask my Soul Twisting Ritualist to tank, in heavy pressure with massive amounts of large AoE damage, you're probably going to end up flagging him somewhere far away and out of sight anywise, so 40 more health as opposed to a major rune is easy for me to give up. Practically speaking, putting Mistrust, blind or an interrupt on your ST ritualist is going to prevent more damage to your spirits than Armor of Unfeeling will. Just opinion, though. It's a question of opportunity cost. If you have the space for it and can't think of anything better, take it.