Curse

Daesu · May 10, 2011, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavenlight

Another scenario would be that you have a new and seemingly counter-intuitive build that you would like to share with the community, but you're afraid it might be shot down immediately. What could you do? You could run your build through these benchmarks areas and offer the completion time as solid proof to convince the community that your build is worth a look at.

Ok, but that would be under the assumption that the person(s) providing the benchmark number is using a decent build. Otherwise the benchmarks would be too easy to beat. Why don't you standardize the build using a current pvx meta, for example, to gather your benchmarks?

Also you want to get a good enough average, otherwise if you have only the times from a highly skilled player, the benchmarks would be too difficult to beat, for an average player, even when using an excellent build.

Lastly, if you have too many areas and it takes too much time to run the new builds through all these areas, that may discourage people from posting new builds.

heavenlight · May 10, 2011, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Ok, but that would be under the assumption that the person(s) providing the benchmark number is using a decent build. Otherwise the benchmarks would be too easy to beat. Why don't you standardize the build using a current pvx meta, for example, to gather your benchmarks?

Also you want to get a good enough average, otherwise if you have only the times from a highly skilled player, the benchmarks would be too difficult to beat, for an average player, even when using an excellent build.

Lastly, if you have too many areas and it takes too much time to run the new builds through all these areas, that may discourage people from posting new builds.

Your points are valid but do remember that the cutoff times are there for comparison purposes. If you come close to it but can't beat it, it doesn't necessarily imply that your build is bad in terms of speed.

Everyone runs their own favorite builds, and enforcing a standard build will severely discourage participation.

Also, remember that we are now just starting with the data collecting and so some common sense has to be used to kick start the process but I don't think they are far off the mark. For instance, right now I don't think anyone will doubt the 10 mins cutoff time for Majesty's Rest given the evidence we have seen so far. But 30 mins for Vloxen is probably easy and I'm still waiting for new screenshots till I set a cutoff time.

And do realize this, once more and more people start to use this benchmark, players don't even need to refer to the benchmark times here to compare between two builds. They just need to compare their respective completion times. The enforcement of a common testing ground for builds is what matters at the end.

As for your last concern, once we are done getting the times for the 5 chosen areas, I'll update in another post about how to use the benchmarks properly. One doesn't necessarily need to run through all 5 areas, but at the very least, 2 or 3 PvE representative areas need to be done and the whole process should take under 2 hours.

Dzjudz · May 10, 2011, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Alright here's my Vloxen fail

. Edit: see post #71 for a better run and time.

Start
End of level 1 (3min)
End of level 2 (13min) (total 16)
End of level 3 (7min) (total 23)

First two levels went pretty good with 0 deaths.

Third level should have been 4 minutes (5 max) like usual, but this time somehow I just failed at Zoldark, wiping twice due to his rampant Minions.

Usually I just kill them once and then keep him from recasting them or I keep them all together by bodyblocking with minions/spirits/heroes to spike them quickly, but this time I just couldn't control them.

Ah well, 23 minutes isn't too bad either. But 20 or even faster is definitely possible.

Showed a big minimap on level 2 so you can see the path heavenlight.

P.S. I'm running lame AP-caller and not SoS or something because I want my build to be independent of my player profession. The only micro I did was cast Aggressive Refrain once at the start of each level and flag heroes (all flag only).

P.P.S. The only mobs I skipped are those you can see in the screenshots at the end of levels 1 and 2.

P.P.P.S. I think a reasonable time for Vloxen HM would be <25 minutes.

Essence Snow · May 11, 2011, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

@Essence Snow: Hrm... SF is fast indeed. How'd you get 24% DP? SF balling isn't foolproof?

.

Lvl 3 of vloxen is notorious for stripping enchantments.....2 deaths and killed a foes in hm (which removes dp) The same time if not faster may be obtainable using a war w/o spell protection...actually might be better given the nicities of shatter hex now.

@heavenlight....I used to be obsessed with dungeons and therefore know most of the tricks and tibits to them...i.e.. I am not your typical player when it comes to these areas. In a lot of the dungeons a lot of the mobs can be avoided w/o sf and w/o running skills or cons. A lot of mobs can be controlled by by angle of engagement. Does this mean that I would purposely have to engage them for sake of others not knowing any better and/or run blindly into them?

Point being...not knowing the variables (builds, knowledge lvl of an area, tactics used, etc...)that go into a time of an area, will make the "benchmark time" rather meaningless. Posting as many variables that one can will only help qualify said time much better than not.

Dzjudz · May 11, 2011, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Yeah a lot of Expunge Enchantments going around on level 3

heavenlight · May 11, 2011, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Lvl 3 of vloxen is notorious for stripping enchantments.....2 deaths and killed a foes in hm (which removes dp) The same time if not faster may be obtainable using a war w/o spell protection...actually might be better given the nicities of shatter hex now.

@heavenlight....I used to be obsessed with dungeons and therefore know most of the tricks and tibits to them...i.e.. I am not your typical player when it comes to these areas. In a lot of the dungeons a lot of the mobs can be avoided w/o sf and w/o running skills or cons. A lot of mobs can be controlled by by angle of engagement. Does this mean that I would purposely have to engage them for sake of others not knowing any better and/or run blindly into them?

Point being...not knowing the variables (builds, knowledge lvl of an area, tactics used, etc...)that go into a time of an area, will make the "benchmark time" rather meaningless. Posting as many variables that one can will only help qualify said time much better than not.

The short answer is yes, if you would like to contribute a valid submission, no mob-skipping tactics are allowed. Other things like aggro wisely to ball enemies up nicely are however legit. As for the variables, read the whole page 1.

Here's how the benchmark is going to be used in the future: Once we have a set of times, if you would like to test your builds, you would take your build to these chosen areas, and run it in the same way as it's done in the benchmark, or the comparison will be moot. And keep in mind that the benchmark is ultimately about how fast a build is at killing stuff, and not completing objectives.

@Dzjudz, thanks for the time and the screenshots. Looking at your level 2 path, I realized I missed a turn and made an additional detour at the lower left corner and had an additional encounter with some dwarfs and a spider boss. 25 minutes certainly sounds reasonable to me as a cutoff time. I might lower it further if more people post times for their runs but I'll leave it at 25 minutes for now.

Essence Snow · May 11, 2011, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavenlight

The short answer is yes, if you would like to contribute a valid submission, no mob-skipping tactics are allowed. Other things like aggro wisely to ball enemies up nicely are however legit. As for the variables, read the whole page 1.

Here's how the benchmark is going to be used in the future: Once we have a set of times, if you would like to test your builds, you would take your build to these chosen areas, and run it in the same way as it's done in the benchmark, or the comparison will be moot. And keep in mind that the benchmark is ultimately about how fast a build is at killing stuff, and not completing objectives.
.

Ok then you need to set up a criteria for what constitutes correct paths, engaged mobs, and other factors (using traps to kill foes comes to mind) Like you noted yourself ...you didnt really know the "correct" path for lvl 2 vloxen. So inturn we come the question..."What defines the boundries of a proper run?" Just saying you cant skip a mob, doesnt really properly address the issue.

In many areas taking one path vs another will inevitably "skip" mobs. Take Rragars for example...there are many paths to take...some have more foes than others, different types of foes, and/or popups. Chosing to take one path vs the other coud be viewed as skipping the others even though the choice to do so maybe have been b/c of build setup and/or favored tactics.

Since dungeons are inheirently about completing objectives...ie..making the end chest spawn...Then they are not well suited for this. If you want to compare times concerning killing foes....then the foes need to be the same type/number/and have same location.

To do this you'd need to take into consideration all the possible variables that might affect these factors. Basically...one needs to do more leg work b4 setting something like this up.

Plutoman · May 11, 2011, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Saying you must engage every mob along the route.. and setting a lot of rules for the benchmarks, seems overly complex and will discourage people.

Ideally, as I'd see it, you need to keep it rather open - if a person who knows the tricks sets a good time, that'd be in the lower end of the benchmarked times - ie, say a great Vloxen run is 18 minutes, a good one is <25, reasonable <30, after that it's sub-par. My take on it. I understand wanting a focus on builds, and not tactics, but as I see it that's the only way you'll get people interested in it - by staying flexible as to what people do.

You can always do it differently than I suggested, it's just the first idea out of my head, but it shouldn't be so strict that players follow a specific course and engage every mob in the same direction and manner and etc. It should be something a player can casually go do - "ah, hey, let's just check a time - first run got 23 minutes, not bad for the set of the builds." <-- that kinda thing. Not "Huh, to check my team build.. Okay, first engage these two patrols, oh wait, this one first, and then I go up and I take the first right, go all the way down, engaging 6 mobs along the route... Lost, crap, gotta go check the map again..." etc, I think you get the idea.

Stipulations that you don't go out of your way to run past (like with a dual fall back teams to intentionally skip mob groups even when they're aggro'd).. are fine, imo. Just stipulate that they should play as if expecting to fight, and go through the dungeon at the fastest speed the team can take them.

Daesu · May 11, 2011, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavenlight

Everyone runs their own favorite builds, and enforcing a standard build will severely discourage participation.

Also, remember that we are now just starting with the data collecting and so some common sense has to be used to kick start the process but I don't think they are far off the mark. For instance, right now I don't think anyone will doubt the 10 mins cutoff time for Majesty's Rest given the evidence we have seen so far. But 30 mins for Vloxen is probably easy and I'm still waiting for new screenshots till I set a cutoff time.

Yes, but if you don't enforce a standard build, then the quality and suitability of the build that they choose to use would be factored into their times. If a PUG warrior, for whatever reasons, decides to use Jack's advanced warrior build but wiped many times finally finishing the area at 59DP, would you still take that time?

Anyway, I am just going to see how this goes. I think we would have the reverse problem, and the times here would be on the high side compared to the average player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

Saying you must engage every mob along the route.. and setting a lot of rules for the benchmarks, seems overly complex and will discourage people.

Ideally, as I'd see it, you need to keep it rather open - if a person who knows the tricks sets a good time, that'd be in the lower end of the benchmarked times - ie, say a great Vloxen run is 18 minutes, a good one is <25, reasonable <30, after that it's sub-par. My take on it. I understand wanting a focus on builds, and not tactics, but as I see it that's the only way you'll get people interested in it - by staying flexible as to what people do.

I have the same concern as Essence Snow. If you don't engage every mob along the route, then this becomes even MORE of a contest on area familiarity. And people would tend to choose the areas that they are most familiar with so the timings submitted would tend to be on the high side.

This means, if I am not familiar with any of these areas and with their popups, shortcuts, and so on. I may be discouraged to share because I would have to first, learn these areas well enough to get a timing that is at least average to the submitted times by people who are very familiar with them. Notice that the times seem to be pretty close which means the truly average players are not participating or most people have been submitting times for their most familiar areas only?

hunter · May 11, 2011, 07:53 AM // 07:53

@DzJudz: Your main has 45% Dp, all other heroes are between 20% and 35%. What happened?

And thats vloxen mind you. Its 1 reason why i think clear times do not justify that much DP on heroes and why more defensive but slower builds are generally better than glass canon builds

The reason why clear times simply do not work with "glass cannon" builds is that you can get a variation in performance, sometimes wiping till 50%DP and sometimes blowing trhough the place in half the time and effort.

For all i know you could have ran the place enough times till you got that "better" performance out of your build.

Note its not aimed at your build specifically, but at glass cannon builds in general.

If lets say someone did a 30 min clear time but heroes in the 0-10% DP department, it would be more impressive/effective compared to the former.

Dzjudz · May 11, 2011, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

@DzJudz: Your main has 45% Dp, all other heroes are between 20% and 35%. What happened?

And thats vloxen mind you. Its 1 reason why i think clear times do not justify that much DP on heroes and why more defensive but slower builds are generally better than glass canon builds.

It says in the post exactly what happened? Anyway, this is my first fail there in dozens of runs because of some weird mess-up. Also, it's just a couple of wipes at the dungeon boss with the shrine being just outside his room, no wipe during any other part of the dungeon (or even any death).

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

For all i know you could have ran the place enough times till you got that "better" performance out of your build.

It is true that this is a possibility. But then again, I wouldn't have posted a run with my first wipe(s). It was the only run I did of that dungeon yesterday, no repeats for better times.

Of course you can run the benchmark missions/dungeons more times to shave off a couple of minutes. But it's not a speedclear thread, the benchmark times won't be set to the fastest time someone has cleared it.

Edit:

I just did Vloxen again after this post:
Start
End of level 1 (3min)
End of level 2 (14min) (total 17)
End of level 3 (4min) (total 21)

Same build, same tactics, this time 0 deaths in the whole dungeon. Only difference is that this time Zoldark's Minions didn't go berserk on me. I killed them once and then stopped Zoldark from reanimating them. You can see I have Psychic Instability selected with my mouse but I didn't need it once, YMLAD and Cry of Frustration handled it. So only micro again was Aggressive Refrain at start of each level and flag heroes with all flag.

heavenlight · May 11, 2011, 03:02 PM // 15:02

@ Essence Snow & Plutoman, ultimately it's about the big picture of what this benchmark but I don't think you guys see it.

So I'll ask a question, and the answer itself is the answer to many of your questions, and if you get it, good, if not, I don't see how I can ever communicate my big picture view.

"Do you know why the early economists (including many who went on to win Nobel prizes) model humans as homo economicus?"

I would also like to point out that participation is entirely voluntary.

p/s: I'll be away in the next few days due to rl commitments and I may or may not have time to check gwguru, but I hope to see a few more submissions.

Essence Snow · May 11, 2011, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavenlight

@ Essence Snow & Plutoman, ultimately it's about the big picture of what this benchmark but I don't think you guys see it.

So I'll ask a question, and the answer itself is the answer to many of your questions, and if you get it, good, if not, I don't see how I can ever communicate my big picture view.

"Do you know why the early economists (including many who went on to win Nobel prizes) model humans as homo economicus?"

I would also like to point out that participation is entirely voluntary.

p/s: I'll be away in the next few days due to rl commitments and I may or may not have time to check gwguru, but I hope to see a few more submissions.

I would assume it has to do with limited self interest...and/or not working cooperatively. Tbh that is neither here nor there in reguards to this...

In any experiment (pretty sure this qualifies as such) the control...also known here as "benchmark" needs to have standards.

Quote:

Scientific control needs not be experimental, and experimentation can sometimes be impossible (as in astronomy). The important thing is to try and control variables and attributes in the data so that the conclusions drawn are valid. Controls are used because it can be difficult to avoid confounding variables.

I am not debating this out of self-interest. I am however debating this b/c if ppl take this as valid when all signs point that its not...then they are the ones that are subject to ill conclusions.

I am merely suggesting that for this whole dealio to hold water there needs to be some validity. Otherwise it's basically an empty bucket.

Plutoman · May 11, 2011, 04:10 PM // 16:10

I see all the points, I just also see a limited community size, and well, people can be lazy. <_< I'm not gonna tell you to do everything I say, I'm just offering suggestions based on the impressions I get.

As I see it, flexibility is important for participation - one or two runs doesn't necessarily tell you what a fast time is when there's so much variance in player skills and team builds. And strict rules will tend to discourage people.

Daesu · May 12, 2011, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavenlight

Areas chosen and the corresponding excellent completion time
1) Majesty's Rest --- <10 mins.
Note: Majesty's Rest is biased towards single-target damage (most groups of foes are 1-3 each), stress test and endurance (Rotscale with 20k hp, and tough group of accompanying mobs)
2) Vloxen's Excavations --- <25 mins
3) Tombs of the Primeval Kings --- (not final) <33 mins

I forgot about a stupid rock in Vloxen and party wiped with 0 DP in one stroke, that's it for me, I have no res so I am dancing at my hero corpses now. Dungeons are annoying like that.

Forgot about a popup spawn in Tombs. This is such a pain to re-learn areas that I have done years ago. Majesty's Rest has so many undead that it is obvious a roj smite build would have an advantage. If I am not using one, why bother?

Since I hate all of these areas, I am not going to participate. Don't even try to convince me that area familiarity has no bearing on the times.

Haggis of Doom · May 12, 2011, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Benchmarking with this big a human input factor is meaningless. I understand your frustration at the current state of things where everything is so qualitative and subjective, but your solution isn't one that can work. A build is only as good as it is played, therefore the best build for you is the one you use the best.

Thus, the best "generic-everyone-can-run" build evaluation method is peer trial. We already have that on PvX.

On Guru, we can share ideas, point out flaws, give suggestions, but that's about it. If an unconventional build shows up, then the poster is expected to show some results. It's fine this way, imo.

LexTalionis · May 12, 2011, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Benchmarking with this big a human input factor is meaningless. I understand your frustration at the current state of things where everything is so qualitative and subjective, but your solution isn't one that can work. A build is only as good as it is played, therefore the best build for you is the one you use the best.

Thus, the best "generic-everyone-can-run" build evaluation method is peer trial. We already have that on PvX.

On Guru, we can share ideas, point out flaws, give suggestions, but that's about it. If an unconventional build shows up, then the poster is expected to show some results. It's fine this way, imo.

In my personal experience, PvX isn't so much peer trial as pre-emptive deprecation. At least on Guru, as one of the mods said, you're somewhat expected to explain why you think a build sucks if you say so. This is completely anecdotal, but my experience with Guru has taught me to value the community here (which actually gives occasional constructive criticism) much more than PvX's contrary policies, exclusivist cliques and status quo.

Sorry, opinionated rant. Take none of what I just said seriously.

Dzjudz · May 12, 2011, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I forgot about a stupid rock in Vloxen and party wiped with 0 DP in one stroke, that's it for me, I have no res so I am dancing at my hero corpses now. Dungeons are annoying like that.

Forgot about a popup spawn in Tombs. This is such a pain to re-learn areas that I have done years ago. Majesty's Rest has so many undead that it is obvious a roj smite build would have an advantage. If I am not using one, why bother?

Since I hate all of these areas, I am not going to participate. Don't even try to convince me that area familiarity has no bearing on the times.

Can I still ask what builds you were running? A party wipe in a dungeon should only tack on a couple of extra minutes (although Vloxen can be annoying in that enemies usually have a Jagged MM that raises 10 minions from your party's corpses), and an extra spawn in Tombs shouldn't overwhelm you (although an accidental wipe there will of course send you back to the outpost). Sure, area familiarity has bearing on the times, nobody said they didn't. Remember, it's not a speed clear thread.

I think post #7 explains it best:

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavenlight

My motivation to start the thread is
1) I'm sick and tired of hearing people say "When I run my build z, everything just explodes and I faceroll through pve contents" without solid numbers backing up their claim. Just think about how much more credible EFGJack's claim about his build will be if he provides run times for the zones he tested his build at.
2) At the same time, I'm sure many forum lurkers are curious how their hero builds compare to other players.

To the posts above, that's why I mentioned I don't agree with equating fast with good since there are other criteria like reliability. But fast is definitely one criteria to judge the worthiness of a build.

So I repeat here: My sole point here is to provide a point of comparison for judging how fast a build is and I do not care about other factors that are hard to measure.

The suggestion of having a few areas is so that it is representative of PvE content. At the same time, tactics/luck should be eliminated/reduced to be as objective as possible.

The point of having speedclears to each specific area is so that we can judge how much extra time is needed for the build. The extra time needed should provide enough info for the players to weigh the risk/reward factor of running the build.

To be clear, let me illustrate with an example. Suppose the 5 chosen areas are Shards of Orr, Hell's Precipice (bonus required), Morostav Trail, Majesty Rest, and Vloxen's Excavations and the fastest running times are 40 minutes, 20 minutes, 25 minutes, 10 minutes, 25 minutes.

Now anyone who has a build to test, be it EFGJack advanced warrior build or Lex's Dwaynaway, could take their builds to these areas and run them to get the times. Suppose I take my overly-defensive build into these areas and get a time 1 hr 20 minutes, 25 minutes, 35 minutes, 20 minutes, 40 minutes. These numbers will tell me how much time is lost by being overly-defensive. If I think the extra reliability provided is far outweighted by the time loss, then I can tweak my build to have more offensive power.

Let's say you get a 30 minute time in Vloxen because you weren't familiar with routes and tactics. You can factor in these circumstances yourself when comparing your time to the benchmark time.

Daesu · May 12, 2011, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Can I still ask what builds you were running? A party wipe in a dungeon should only tack on a couple of extra minutes (although Vloxen can be annoying in that enemies usually have a Jagged MM that raises 10 minions from your party's corpses), and an extra spawn in

Does it matter what build I am running? It is an indiana jones rolling stone that came from behind, it kills everything in 1 roll. The only way to guard against that is to avoid it. I have no res, cannot use cons, so I can't continue unless I purposefully kill my own character (start acquiring DP) for a party res. It was at level 1, no previous deaths, no MMs, just annoying.

I have cleared this before more than a year ago and I forgot about the rolling stone. Sure, I could have prepared myself better before going (e.g. reading the wiki), but I shouldn't need to do all that just to test a build.

Quote:

Tombs shouldn't overwhelm you (although an accidental wipe there will of course send you back to the outpost).

I think it was in level 2 near the wurms where a big group of grasps popped up right in the middle of my casters. I could have tread more carefully knowing there are popups but I was impatient and forgot about them. Even though I didn't wipe, the DP acquired by my casters then, would be enough to slow me down significantly.

Quote:

I think post #7 explains it best:
Let's say you get a 30 minute time in Vloxen because you weren't familiar with routes and tactics. You can factor in these circumstances yourself when comparing your time to the benchmark time.

The problem is, if you are unfamiliar with the specific area, your time is going to be so much longer that the build effectiveness variance becomes insignificant.

In other words, this becomes more of a measure of area familiarity rather than build effectiveness.

Dzjudz · May 12, 2011, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Does it matter what build I am running? It is an indiana jones rolling stone that came from behind, it kills everything in 1 roll. The only way to guard against that is to avoid it. I have no res, cannot use cons, so I can't continue unless I purposefully kill my own character (start acquiring DP) for a party res. It was at level 1, no previous deaths, no MMs, just annoying.

I have cleared this before more than a year ago and I forgot about the rolling stone. Sure, I could have prepared myself better before going (e.g. reading the wiki), but I shouldn't need to do all that just to test a build.

Ah, I couldn't figure out what sort of rock you were talking about, but a boulder explains it. You shouldn't encounter any rolling stones though if you start from Vlox's Falls (which is a better place to start anyway). But yeah, it's prudent to look at wiki before attempting something for which you know the time is going to be a factor, be it a mission to see what the bonus is and which path to take, a vanquish to see how many enemies there are, etc.

Quote:

The problem is, if you are unfamiliar with the specific area, your time is going to be so much longer that the build effectiveness variance becomes insignificant.

In other words, this becomes more of a measure of area familiarity rather than build effectiveness.

I disagree. At this point, we can assume everyone has done pretty much everything. If not, you can just go through the mission/dungeon once for familiarity and then go through it again to time it. If you have no familiarity with anything at all and don't want to test your build like this, what merit is there in calling a build good or great?

For example, if 10 people do Vloxen and 9 of them get times ranging from 20 to 28 minutes while 1 gets a time of 38 minutes, it is clear that:
- around 25 minutes is a good clear time
- the person with 38 minutes:
-- either is very unfamiliar with Vloxen: this should clear up in a second run, showing a great improvement in time; or
-- has a suboptimal build: this should show in a second run, again getting a time clearly slower than the others.

There is only so much you can use the excuse of familiarity for. For example, I remember the first time I did Vloxen to test a build not so long ago was a good while after I had last done Vloxen. This showed in a time of around 33 minutes (for example, I went for the lever in the northwest of level 3, which is completely unnecessary). The second time, with a slightly different build, I was familiar with Vloxen. This showed an improvement in time to around 25 minutes.