Curse

Lanier · May 15, 2011, 02:38 PM // 14:38

I didn't bother to read the walls of text above me pertaining to eles vs. mesmers, so i will instead respond to the OP and give my opinion of tiers.

I like my paragons

My team build consists of myself on a paragon build (usually offensive with cruel spear or soldier's fury), 3 paragon heroes with offensive attacks and buffs, a orders/rit weapon support necro, a minion master, and my two backliners (ER ele and HB monk).

In my opinion, the whole casterway concept is overrated. That includes the use of discords, mesmers, and to a lesser extent (since i rarely see them) air eles. I have found that I tend to kill mobs much faster with physical based teams and buffs like orders, barbs/MoP, weapon spells, and smiting buffs. The physicals dont even have to be paragons - I have substituted rangers, warriors, assassins, and dervishes, and these heroes have still killed very fast when used with the caster buffs. I'm not going to give my tiers, but I would put physical damage higher on the list than caster damage.

AndrewSX · May 15, 2011, 03:46 PM // 15:46

In GW physical damage has ALWAYS been over caster.

A Warrior/Derv/Sin/etc swinging his Sword/Scythe/etc deal more damage than a caster blowing all his energy to attack foes. If you consider to buff physical with enchs/weapon spells/triggering hexes/shouts/and let them use their skills.......there's no match. But this is(should be) well know among players.

So when people start the math wars about what caster build use for damage, physical are assumed out of it i guess.

Lanier · May 15, 2011, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

In GW physical damage has ALWAYS been over caster.

A Warrior/Derv/Sin/etc swinging his Sword/Scythe/etc deal more damage than a caster blowing all his energy to attack foes. If you consider to buff physical with enchs/weapon spells/triggering hexes/shouts/and let them use their skills.......there's no match. But this is(should be) well know among players.

And yet people are still using hero builds based on mesmers and necromancers

Xenomortis · May 15, 2011, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

So when people start the math wars about what caster build use for damage, physical are assumed out of it i guess.

It has been said many times already that the AI is absolutely terrible with melee roles. This fact alone renders the advantages they have near meaningless when put into the hands of the Hero AI.

LexTalionis · May 15, 2011, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Gee, maybe it's because some people actually like handling single pulls instead of having heroes run around in front and aggro everything in radar range, like in the Tomb of Primeval Kings or the Domain of Anguish.

Maybe it's because melee actually requires you to be near your target and clean to do any damage instead of running around crippled or snared when everything squishy is moving at faster speeds and kiting in HM. Maybe it's because being repeatedly blinded or whatever makes your total damage output near zero. Maybe some people dislike the unreasonably massive amounts of melee hate in certain zones. (See: Shards of Orr or anything using Ancestor's Visage/Soothing Images)

Maybe it's because some people don't like building teams entirely based around physical support after the strange realisation that monsters only have a limited amount of life and 8 casters are perfectly capable of killing all of them using a reasonable amount of energy instead of turning everything into a long-drawn out DPS comparision. Maybe some caster teams are even capable of killing all the enemies in a pack by the time an assassin puts up all his enchantments and preparations or whatnot and manages to run into range.

Maybe it's because ranger and paragon heroes have no AI checks to make sure they actually have a clear line of sight to their target instead of repeatedly firing for 30 seconds at a completely innocent wall. Maybe some people like being able to nuke stuff through walls and elevation differences.

Or maybe you know, everyone else is just stupid and you're special. Durrr.

Outerworld · May 15, 2011, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I didn't bother to read the walls of text above me pertaining to eles vs. mesmers, so i will instead respond to the OP and give my opinion of tiers.

I like my paragons

My team build consists of myself on a paragon build (usually offensive with cruel spear or soldier's fury), 3 paragon heroes with offensive attacks and buffs, a orders/rit weapon support necro, a minion master, and my two backliners (ER ele and HB monk).

In my opinion, the whole casterway concept is overrated. That includes the use of discords, mesmers, and to a lesser extent (since i rarely see them) air eles. I have found that I tend to kill mobs much faster with physical based teams and buffs like orders, barbs/MoP, weapon spells, and smiting buffs. The physicals dont even have to be paragons - I have substituted rangers, warriors, assassins, and dervishes, and these heroes have still killed very fast when used with the caster buffs. I'm not going to give my tiers, but I would put physical damage higher on the list than caster damage.

A fully buffed Human physical will win the DPS war certainly, but a buffed hero won't come close mainly due to its poor AI. So yes a caster based hero team is probably better despite theoretical DPS.

syphonus · May 15, 2011, 04:45 PM // 16:45

From a melee perspective:

God Tier: Channeling Rit
Top Tier: MM, ROJ, Domi Mes, Communing Rit
Middle Tier: Illusion Mes, Utility Necro
Bottom Tier: ER ele, Monks etc, Bunch of Stuff
Garbage: Melee Heroes

AndrewSX · May 15, 2011, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

And yet people are still using hero builds based on mesmers and necromancers

Quote:

It has been said many times already that the AI is absolutely terrible with melee roles. This fact alone renders the advantages they have near meaningless when put into the hands of the Hero AI.

The fact that Meele AI sucks (hard) was subintended....the point was Physical damage vs. Caster damage, and the former outclasses the latter a lot afaik.

That said, caster heroes are preferred cause they're more reliable than meeles on use correctly builds we give them. But you can still roll a physical heavy team in High Pve (Hm/Dg and such) and breezee trough it (see "Ranger heavy team" thread in Ranger section of campfire, or the para-team that sometimes someone show/run).

P.S: i've never used such kind of teams, mostly cause
1-if you're a caster you'll rarely get something better than casterways out of it(and i have only 1 sin as meele char);

2-i'm a total noob using paras(which are the back bone of such kind of teams afaik).

The Josip · May 15, 2011, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

A fully buffed Human physical will win the DPS war certainly, but a buffed hero won't come close mainly due to its poor AI. So yes a caster based hero team is probably better despite theoretical DPS.

"Certainly"? I'm not 100% certain at all, but I lack experience with physicals. There's no AScan anymore, no BUH. And we have 8 heroes now, not 3. In general HM area E-Surge team can bring enemy mob down to half health in no time. As AP mesmer all I'm often doing is AE+EVAS at the start of the battle, and the rest of the battle is often just AP+FHim or AP+YMLAD +FHIM; without even having time to recast EVAS. Unless the entire mob is always adjacent, an assassin is only going to kill faster than shouts if he's stoning everyone with his gaze.

Moreover, physicals have to turn GW into a strategy game where NPCs are constantly managed. I, on the other hand, install a strategy game if I feel like playing one. So even if some melee guy is going to kill faster, the way I play the game - that is not going to be the case.

But even if we agree that buffed physicals (which I haven't tried much after recent AS/BUH/8Hero updates) are better (and they surely were before) - going as far as ridiculing caster hero setup and promoting crappy physical heroes (especially when half of the heroes in the team are still casters) - that's.. hmm what's the English phrase I like.. "too far gone".

Plutoman · May 15, 2011, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Heroes use Overload well enough.

I only brought in Overload because you brought you Weaken Armor (which is your second skill), first. Inflicting cracked armor is not a property of Invoke, but a condition inflicted by Weaken Armor. If you bring in Chain Lightning, I can bring in Wastrel's Demise into the mix. If you keep adding boosting skills for a more impressive damage of Invoke, then I can keep adding damage skills for each booster skill that you have added, to show a more impressive combined DPS. Afterall, it is the SAME number of skill slots used.

I do believe I have shown my point too.

You're forgetting that Overload is not a 'condition', but it is 'conditional'. It only triggers on interrupts. In addition to that, Wastrel's Demise only goes until a skill is used. Heroes are certainly not that good at using demise unless you have a complete shutdown.

Conditional damage is higher because of the fact it is conditional - there's no way to predict how much damage will actually go through - therefore, it has no place in this argument.

When talking about booster skills - you talk about them as if they shouldn't be needed. Let's look at physical damage - is it strong, alone? It's extremely weak until you start bringing splinter and SoH into the picture. What are those? Buffs! It's the same concept. You get more out of bringing a buff that affects multiple skills than by bringing a second damage skill. If you bring 5 damage skills - I can bring 4 damage skills - and buff them each 30% or more. And each hero added doesn't need a buff. While you might run out of skills to interrupt, particularly with e-management, these can continually deal damage and receive a 30% buff to damage from cracked armor.

And I've repeatedly shown how Invoke does more damage than E-Surge comparing each to each other. Without any other skills. If you go to a full bar, an Elementalist will have more unconditional damage than a mesmer unless you are fighting solely level 32+ rangers.

That doesn't mean I don't like mesmers - in fact, I use 3 in my teams on a regular basis. They are extremely powerful. But I'm going to disprove anyone who thinks armor ignoring damage is superior to all, because that's not true in any capacity.

Outerworld · May 15, 2011, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

"Certainly"? I'm not 100% certain at all, but I lack experience with physicals. There's no AScan anymore, no BUH.

Fair point, I actually forgot we lost A-scan and BuH

.

Daesu · May 15, 2011, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

You're forgetting that Overload is not a 'condition', but it is 'conditional'. It only triggers on interrupts. In addition to that, Wastrel's Demise only goes until a skill is used. Heroes are certainly not that good at using demise unless you have a complete shutdown.

Conditional damage is higher because of the fact it is conditional - there's no way to predict how much damage will actually go through - therefore, it has no place in this argument.

Exactly, Weaken Armor is a condition and conditions can also be removed. Conditional damage can also be effective especially if you build around them. Shutdown can come in many forms, it can come in the form of Panic or even Psychic Instability.

At least Overload does damage by itself without ES, while weaken armor is only a booster skill. If your argument revolve around Invoke+Weaken+EBSoH combined has a higher DPS than ES alone, then you are obviously biased in your comparison.

Quote:

When talking about booster skills - you talk about them as if they shouldn't be needed.

Wong. I have never said booster skills are not needed. I am saying you dont need to show that 3 skill slots combined is stronger than 1 skill slot. That is obvious.

The Josip · May 15, 2011, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

Fair point, I actually forgot we lost A-scan and BuH

.

Don't get me wrong - I am perfectly aware of how powerful melee was before, to the point where I was claiming that Me/D was the best mesmer build. But I've tried Dervish post-update for 10 minutes, and it just felt weaker and "meh". Damage was decent and more balanced but it seemed weaker than damage of my Me/D pre-update. Haven't tried other physicals.

I merely wanted to point out that AScan and BUH were both great buffs and that melee damage today needs to be "adjusted" accordingly in the minds of the players. I mentioned 8 heroes because I feel this benefits casters more since killing happens faster, and if killing happens faster melee player spends more time walking and less attacking. With faster killing speed 1-target hexes such as MoP become weaker (and Barbs near useless), unless of course you can take down entire balled mob. This is why among casters mesmers seem to be even better - if targets are dying faster, it matters more how fast you cast spells. By the time you cast 2-sec Chain Lightning, the target may be dead.

This is partly theorycrafting, but it needs to be said that difference between physical and caster damage is now smaller than some make it to be. What would be the results if someone was going as physical and trying to finish all 3 campaigns plus EotN, vs caster who would try the same - I don't know.

But this is all off-topic, as the thread is about what heroes are useful for *us*, not what heroes are best with, say, Assassin. I can't vote for any physical heroes because I have no physical hero build that would add anything to the team. That's that. If you got assassin and he's killing fast, and you seem to do better with physical heroes than casters - great. But it's not working for me.

Plutoman · May 15, 2011, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If your argument revolve around Invoke+Weaken+EBSoH combined has a higher DPS than ES alone, then you are obviously biased in your comparison.

Apparently this still is getting lost. My argument revolves around the fact that Invoke > ES. My numbers how how Air magic can be built around for significant damage and spikes.

Anyways, take it up with PM or something. After finals I'll put up a more detailed analysis, because I don't have the time to continually respond.

cellardweller · May 16, 2011, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

"Certainly"? I'm not 100% certain at all, but I lack experience with physicals. There's no AScan anymore, no BUH. And we have 8 heroes now, not 3. In general HM area E-Surge team can bring enemy mob down to half health in no time.

BUH and AScan were never important - MoP is and has always been the key. It takes almost 5 heroes running ESurge to put out the same damage as just the MoP/100b/WWA combo. Its not as popular because 1) it requires the player to be the one that runs 100B+WW and it requires you've practiced enough to corner block quickly otherwise you spend more time rounding up red dots than killing them. In corner friendly areas, this method is fast enough to have the next group gathered before the previous MoP has recharged, in areas without corners/rocks you're better off running something else.

KotCR · May 16, 2011, 02:00 PM // 14:00

God Tier: Necromancers
Top Tier: Paragons, Ritualists
Middle Tier: Mesmers, Monks
Bottom Tier: Warriors, Elementalists, Dervishes, Rangers
Garbage: Assassins

That is all.

maxxfury · May 16, 2011, 02:15 PM // 14:15

God Tier: Rits
Top Tier: Mes & Nec
Middle Tier: Elem & Monk & para
Bottom Tier: Derv & Ranger
**** Tier: Sin & war

Verene · May 16, 2011, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

But I've tried Dervish post-update for 10 minutes, and it just felt weaker and "meh". Damage was decent and more balanced but it seemed weaker than damage of my Me/D pre-update.

As a primary Dervish, the profession post-update is much stronger than it was before. To the point where I will occasionally bring along a Dervish hero, even with the crappy melee AI. It focuses more on AoE damage now, but trust me, I'm still very capable of spiking large amounts of damage on a single target with no problems.

And while AScan has changed, I wouldn't discount it entirely; I don't use it myself anymore but my friend tells me it can be very useful in areas with a lot of melee hate.

AndrewSX · May 16, 2011, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Yeah, new Ascan maybe doesn't allow to pewpew 200+ dmg for hit, but when you're always target of blind/ant-meele hex/block mobs, it's godly.

I can't even think to do MTSC w/o it (how was before last update?).... Blind? Block? Blurred vision? Put Ascan and forget. Has his limits due to recharge and removable and single target, but it worth it somewhere.

Elfblade · May 16, 2011, 03:44 PM // 15:44

i assume buffed physical damage is still on top, but it still requires more skills to get the damage (different proffessions more heroes, limiting what you can take.)