Curse

AndrewSX · May 13, 2011, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Tbh the problem with spirits is the Ai use: both Rits drop their bar to kill a single minion/pet/dying mob running around, staying in cooldown when you have to face something serious. And i don't like the standard SOGM bar: not for SOGM itself (quite powerful) but for the cost/CD of spirits used. Pain+Anguish+Dissonance+Disench...last 2 have like 40sec CD (and 25e cast).

I'm a fan of ST for Offensive Communers too: Angush+dissonance+disench at reduced cost and no CD(3 spirits supposing at least 12 SP). Also is quite versatile cause if your healers/protters can't handle all damage (...this shouldn't happen, is just an example) you can freely slot 2x offense and 1 protection spirit (displacement/union/shelter) and such.

If you pair spirit damage with utility Sos(high spec in another att. like smite/resto/command....) and sogm/ST(pair offensive spirits with defensive ones) are very impressive.

Foc Necs are quite powerful if you can: a)ball target(kaboom.)b)provide any kind of reuse/increased recharge(in fact, Foc should be always micro-echoed or such). Ah, and provide aoe hex obviuosly.
But if you can afford a, 4 Focs or multiple Focs in short time are quite valuabe. It's a niche/condition tought, so they aren't top tier, and it's right.

Mesmers doesn't have so much powerful non-elite skills? You've just liste a 5-6 of them. Enough if you consider to add the elite, 1-2 e-management and eventual monk res (FC is a good reason for it afterall). Bars maybe will be quite standard, but there's not the problem "Well, what should i put here that don't sucks?"
Don't forget some stuff useful, but very conditional and great only in certain places, like Spiritual Pain. You can get rid with ease of annoying spirits, but if there arent' is quite pointless. Just an example.

I'd exclude FD from the elite count btw. Heroes are too stupid to use it properly (like for a lot of bars).

P.S:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Casters don't wand very often ...

I heard that in HM they do it always when not casting.

Also, they usually ball with Rangers and Paras, which are perfect target for WE-Clusmi-Inept and such.

cellardweller · May 13, 2011, 01:20 PM // 13:20

The actual class doesn't matter (with the exception of splinter) so I've gone with the reasons that I bring particular attribute lines.

0) God tier - MoP, Splinter, SoA, PS
1) Top tier - SoH, redbarring [edit] Oh and SV/AV how could I forget those gems

2) Middle tier - Spirits, minions, random nukes like putrid explosion or wandering eye
3) Bottom tier - Anything that requires line of sight
4) Garbage tier - Anything melee

The Josip · May 13, 2011, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Illusion is solid damage but it's often not going to be on your target

Accumulated Pain.

And casters do wand, especially in HM.

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Where this is a real issue is triggering AP which I'm finding mez pretty crap for unless you mess with spiritual pain.

Which is why you use Spiritual Pain, since it's good (regardless of what some forumers say).

What hero build would then be better for AP, Invoke Ele? I did try invoke ele to see how the build flows, and the numbers just seemed meh compared to the output that mesmer can do. I understand that in ele terms Invoke is super good, but compared to mesmer it certainly doesn't appear to be the case. I didn't test this thoroughly so I accept feedback in case I missed something. Same thing when I look at FoC necros mentioned here - to me, they seem pretty bad compared to mesmers I love and use.

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The major issue with dom mesmers IMO is mistrust stacking. They only mistrust your target, basically regardless of what is on the target's bar. So even if you pick good targets, there's only going to be one mistrust at a time. This is the highest damage part of their bar so not having that trigger constantly is a limitation, running over 2 even in caster-heavy areas can be a waste.

That's like saying spirit spam is bad because you can only have one spirit and if you have two it's waste.

Mistrust is great, but there's plenty of other good skills.

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Everything else (cry, unnatural, esurge, shatter hex, spain?) does not suffer as badly, but you get way more value out of a panic or VoR than the additional esurges. (Not that esurge is bad...)

I fail to see how Invoke is good and E-Surge bad. Panic is also bad. I preached against it since the beginning and I'll continue to do so. Panic is the most overrated mesmer skill. Yes, it's good in DoA with 50 enemies spamming like madmen, but that's it. In general PvE HM, you don't need Panic, it's subpar and antisynergetic. VoR, as I vaguely remember, is weaker than it looks because of how AI reacts to it (mobs) and how heroes use it (but I can certainly test it more).

Daesu · May 13, 2011, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

What hero build would then be better for AP, Invoke Ele? I did try invoke ele to see how the build flows, and the numbers just seemed meh compared to the output that mesmer can do. I understand that in ele terms Invoke is super good, but compared to mesmer it certainly doesn't appear to be the case. I didn't test this thoroughly so I accept feedback in case I missed something. Same thing when I look at FoC necros mentioned here - to me, they seem pretty bad compared to mesmers I love and use.

Not taking FC into account, both Energy Surge and FoC have the same DPS at level 15. If you take FC into account, Energy Surge would have greater DPS. Furthermore, FoC is only adjacent range, while Energy Surge is nearby range.

With FoC, you need to prep your target with a hex. Energy Surge doesn't need to, but it depends on the energy level of your target at the point in time that you cast it, which in PvE is usually not an issue since PvE monsters have extra energy regen. FoC costs 15e and is probably more usable for primary necros. Energy Surge costs only 5e.

For greater DPS, I would prefer Energy Surge. Another advantage of FoC is that it has some life steal so it heals your necro a little, but that is all. Invoke lightning is competitive in HM only if you build around it by also bringing along cracked armor and EBSoH.

The Josip · May 13, 2011, 04:10 PM // 16:10

I've included cracked armor when evaluating Invoke, but we need to be fair and say that spells that inflict cracked armor also cost energy and skill slot. I didn't include EbSoH though, but that's +15(per hit) more dmg, which still seems weaker to me, and moreover you lose PvE slot (we were talking about AP right?) so can't spam Finish Him which really is the best finishing move once you bring down others a bit of AoE (based on what Jaydra uses in the screenshot). This is all theory as I'm not ele but mesmer, however I do feel that some of the comments and rankings are biased because of who plays what profession, and also some comments seem to be based on old Prophecy impressions and are not up-to-date with balance of power as it exists now.

Btw always assume 10 FC

Plutoman · May 13, 2011, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Ironically, invoke has a higher DPS than energy surge, albeit to a limited number of targets. And that's assuming 12 + 2 + 1 for e-surge, 10 FC, and only 12 + 1 + 1 for invoke, no cracked armor, no EBSoH, on a level 30 caster. Just pointing it out.

If you boost with glyph/ele lord/ 12 + 3 + 1 attributes, use cracked armor, use EBSoH, invoke alone does over 18DPS (with 130+ spikes), while E-Surge sits at a flat 8 to 8.8dps (depending on attributes) no matter what you do.

For mob spikes, I use e-surge to be sure because the shutdown of the other skills is effective. Mistrust won't get stuck on one target, depending on which point you call targets. If you run AP, then Mistrust loses some of it's value. But, repeated sticks of mistrust aren't necessarily bad either - if a healer fails two spells in a row, that's not gonna be a bad thing. Invoke's pretty nice after the buff though.

Verene · May 13, 2011, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

@Plutoman: You forgot Accumulated Pain, which IMO is one of the best Illusion skills out there. Maybe I really should make that post after all.

I love Accumulated Pain, and it works very nicely with Fragility.

FoxBat · May 14, 2011, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

What hero build would then be better for AP, Invoke Ele? I did try invoke ele to see how the build flows, and the numbers just seemed meh compared to the output that mesmer can do. I understand that in ele terms Invoke is super good, but compared to mesmer it certainly doesn't appear to be the case. I didn't test this thoroughly so I accept feedback in case I missed something.

Invoke isn't amazing but it's not like the competition is that strong. If you strip all reactive mez skills from your bar (CoF, mistrust, shatter hex), all you are left with in the "standard" dom line is esurge, unnatural, spiritual. Esurge's damage is not much higher than invoke or necessarily higher at all, it's main advantage is hitting more targets, at the cost of slightly more recharge. The "hitting more targets" is a big deal, but lets look at other options for the moment. Unnatural signet is generally behind chain lightning, is unlikely to hit more than 3 targets at adjacent without tanking, and on a higher recharge. Spiritual pain will not outdo lightning orb unless you are facing spirits/minions. Cry of Pain of course doesn't count for heroes, and we've already seen the issues with leaving chaos storm to the AI.

Most of the dom's unique strength are locked up in the reactive skills, which A) get worse as you stack them, and B) are not as reliable at triggering your APs on demand. Illusion in particular, if the casters are spelling or getting KD'd/interrupted, will go looking for attacking targets instead of your own. If you end up throwing spiritual pain/unnatural sig on a dom mez or two they can be great, but these skills alone are not going to beat out invoke. If you *do* want to build around that kind of interaction, again keystone will spam adjacent damage packets all day long once an AP gets that first corpse down for signet of sorrow. (Not sure how well that works with MMs) Then it largely comes down to whether adjacent is frequently at least matching the 3-nearby range of invoke.

Plutoman · May 15, 2011, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Just still pointing out that Invoke does higher damage than energy surge, regardless of weaken armor or EBSoH, and only gets stronger when you add those in. As in, effectively twice as strong. The standard is too ineffective, tbh, and I wouldn't bother with it - but if you prep with weaken armor, invoke lightning can be one of the strongest spikes in the game - and will do listed damage to any caster up to level 33, and any warrior up to level 27. Rangers, up to level 25 or so. And more damage the lower the levels (casters typically aren't level 33 :P). It's pretty amazing up until that 3 target limit. I'm still exploring the potentials of it and mesmer skills. I'll add a more comprehensive analysis when I finish with my major coursework. I'll do a more in-depth comparison including the use of utility and how much damage each can provide, which primary classes are best, and how to mix it all together.

Daesu · May 15, 2011, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

Just still pointing out that Invoke does higher damage than energy surge, regardless of weaken armor or EBSoH.

How is that so? At level 15, you have 90 lightning damage with 25% armor penetration on 3 targets. Energy Surge has 90 armor ignoring damage at nearby range.

However, you can add other skills to make Lightning Surge more damaging, but then you would be comparing >1 skill slots versus 1 skill slot of ES. Comparing just ES with LS, ES generally has a higher damage in HM.

@Foxbat: Comparing non-elite mesmer skills against invoke is really not a fair comparison.

Plutoman · May 15, 2011, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

How is that so? At level 15, you have 90 lightning damage with 25% armor penetration on 3 targets. Energy Surge has 90 armor ignoring damage at nearby range.

However, you can add other skills to make Lightning Surge more damaging, but then you would be comparing >1 skill slots versus 1 skill slot of ES. Comparing just ES with LS, ES generally has a higher damage in HM.

@Foxbat: Comparing non-elite mesmer skills against invoke is really not a fair comparison.

Recharge and casting time are less, even factoring in 10 Fast Casting. Invoke lightning does significantly more.

If you start debating over the value of limitless targets and etc, that's all debatable. There's a significant portion of the game that you will only have max 3, sometimes 4 enemies, inside a nearby range, so for the sake of it, I assume in DPS calculations that you only hit one enemy. The core of it is that the spike is slightly less, for a spike that hits every 7 seconds instead of every 11.

In addition, the damage of Invoke can be buffed - damage buffs are valuable, particularly considering it already does more - by cracked armor, elemental lord (for players), glyph of elemental power, and EBSoH. Energy Surge receives buffs from nothing.

Numbers against level 30 casters;
Invoke @ 15 - 79 damage hits, 10.66 DPS.
E-Surge @ 15 + 10 FC - 90 damage hits, 8 DPS. - 1.2 casting time, 10.05 recharge.

With cracked armor applied;
Invoke @ 15 - 102 damage hits, 14.64 DPS.
With EBSoH @ R5, Cracked Armor;
Invoke @ 15 - 113 damage hits, 16.14 DPS.
With Glyph of Ele Power, Cracked Armor;
Invoke @ 17 - 115 damage hits, 16.43 DPS.
With all 3;
Invoke @ 17 - 126 damage hits, 18 DPS.

In fact, all the way up to level 32 enemies, a rank 12 Invoke Lightning does equal DPS compared to E-Surge, unconditionally. It also casts slightly faster, too.

If you drop to a level 26 caster..

Invoke @ 15 - 92 damage hits, 13.92 DPS.
W/All 3;
Invoke @ 17 - 141 damage hits, 20.28 DPS.

I made a full excel sheet with the numbers. With a few buffs, invoke can be rather astounding, and even without the buffs it holds it's own.

Using; invoke, chain, weaken armor, and EBSoH attains 35.6 DPS, and the latter two need only be on one bar. With just weaken armor, you get 32.5 DPS with three skills, one of which is only on one bar unless you prefer multiple copies for some reason or another. Attunement makes a 4th skill - and then you're left with plenty of room for other skills and attributes.

If anyone prefers, I can do more data running on comparisons, but it'll wait till tomorrow night. :P I could also do up a thread on it at some point, so I stop cluttering up this one.

FoxBat · May 15, 2011, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

@Foxbat: Comparing non-elite mesmer skills against invoke is really not a fair comparison.

I mean the whole evoke bar, I did a skill vs. skill comparison. Chain lightning vs unnatural, lorb vs spiritual pain.

Daesu · May 15, 2011, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

If you start debating over the value of limitless targets and etc, that's all debatable. There's a significant portion of the game that you will only have max 3, sometimes 4 enemies, inside a nearby range, so for the sake of it, I assume in DPS calculations that you only hit one enemy. The core of it is that the spike is slightly less, for a spike that hits every 7 seconds instead of every 11.

It is not just 3 targets vs nearby range. 25% armor penetration is also inferior to armor ignoring attacks. With elemental attacks, you have to take into account the armor level of HM monsters while armor ignoring attacks don't.

Your claim that LS is necessarily more damaging than ES is flawed because you did not take armor level of HM monsters into account. A 90 damage LS against a level 24 ranger monster would only do about 57 damage, while a 90 damage ES against the same monster would do 90 damage.

Quote:

In addition, the damage of Invoke can be buffed - damage buffs are valuable, particularly considering it already does more - by cracked armor, elemental lord (for players), glyph of elemental power, and EBSoH. Energy Surge receives buffs from nothing.

Sure, you can buff Invoke further, but that would mean sacrificing more skill slots, those same skill slots can be used to bring even MORE armor ignoring damage skills instead, in the case of the mesmer.

Plutoman · May 15, 2011, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Your claim that LS is necessarily more damaging than ES is flawed because you did not take armor level of HM monsters into account. A 90 damage LS against a level 24 ranger monster would only do about 57 damage, while a 90 damage ES against the same monster would do 90 damage.

I did. Go run the math. The armor level of monsters is accounted for, as is the 25% armor penetration. I used the equation of damage = stated * .5^((armor - 60)/40), taking into account that a level 30 caster has 90 armor, level 26 has 78, and etc etc. I did a full excel sheet calculating all the data for mobs of level 26-32.

Rangers are a sole exception - don't design heroes around fighting only rangers, of which have less energy, don't cast spells, and etc, too. To get damage for them, you would add ~13 levels (rounded to 13, for simpler comparisons) levels. Fighting a level 26 ranger would be equivalent to a level 39 caster. Of course damage will be lower. However, against a level 26 warrior, it's equivalent to a level 32 caster. Damage is only slightly lower than the numbers I gave for a level 30 caster.

Should note that with cracked armor, you'll get equivalent DPS to E-Surge with invoke @ 15 even against a ranger.

To address the last part, two skills can add 30-40% to the DPS of multiple skills. That's adequate buffing and not worth griping about the skill slots considering the damage is already higher. Would you prefer to take two more armor ignoring skills, or two skills that buffed the rest 30-40%? It's an easy choice. Bringing two ele's means you now have the equivalent firepower of 3, with only two skills.

25% armor penetration, is, in many circumstances, superior to armor-ignoring damage for the simple reason that armor-ignoring damage is static. Armor-affected skills can go above the stated damage, and are not limited to the exact amount stated.

This is, to be honest, a good distraction from homework.

Daesu · May 15, 2011, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

Rangers are a sole exception - don't design heroes around fighting only rangers, of which have less energy, don't cast spells, and etc, too. To get damage for them, you would add ~13 levels (rounded to 13, for simpler comparisons) levels. Fighting a level 26 ranger would be equivalent to a level 39 caster. Of course damage will be lower. However, against a level 26 warrior, it's equivalent to a level 32 caster. Damage is only slightly lower than the numbers I gave for a level 30 caster.

Casters usually group together, if we are just fighting casters, then there is a high chance that nearby range would accomodate more than 3 targets. Rangers and warriors can be more spreaded out.

Also I dont see how comparing the damage generated by 3 skill slots versus the damage of just 1 skill slot is a fair assessment. Sure, cracked armor is powerful when used with non-armor ignoring attacks. Reducing the level 24 Ranger armor from 112 against elemental to 92 which boosts the Invoke attack from ~58 to about 81 which gives an excellent DPS of 13.5.

ES DPS is only about 8.57 but since I dont need cracked armor, I replace Weaken Armor with [email protected] which has a DPS, with 10 FC, of about 27.4. This gives a total DPS of 35.97 which out trumps your Invoke+cracked armor combination.

I dont even want to go into Wastrel's Demise which can give a max damage of 150 damage over 5 seconds.

Plutoman · May 15, 2011, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Also I dont see how comparing the damage generated by 3 skill slots versus the damage of just 1 skill slot is a fair assessment.

It's not comparing 3 skill slots versus 1.

I'll put it back up;

Quote:

Numbers against level 30 casters;
Invoke @ 15 - 79 damage hits, 10.66 DPS.
E-Surge @ 15 + 10 FC - 90 damage hits, 8 DPS. - 1.2 casting time, 10.05 recharge.

One skill each, and it's assumed that you go up to 10 in FC.

The additional math is how much better it can be if you start doing some team building - with two extra skills, it does over twice as much DPS than E-Surge. That's a significant amount. When you have two invoke ele's, those two skills means it does damage comparable to 4-5 E-Surges.

As I see it, when you have 2 Invoke's + Weaken Armor + EBSoH being as powerful as 4-5 E-Surges, use of more skills doesn't seem so bad.

I'm not sure where you go, but I don't have enemies reliably grouping up as more than 3 unless I spend time setting up pulls and etc. In addition, Invoke is nearby range on each strike, meaning that one hit can bounce to a nearby target - and the next one has a range nearby to that target, and so on for the third. The bouncing means it's extremely likely to hit all 3 targets.

Daesu · May 15, 2011, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

It's not comparing 3 skill slots versus 1.

I'll put it back up;

One skill each, and it's assumed that you go up to 10 in FC.

The additional math is how much better it can be if you start doing some team building - with two extra skills, it does over twice as much DPS than E-Surge. That's a significant amount. When you have two invoke ele's, those two skills means it does damage comparable to 4-5 E-Surges.

As I see it, when you have 2 Invoke's + Weaken Armor + EBSoH being as powerful as 4-5 E-Surges, use of more skills doesn't seem so bad.

Sure, but if you use a PvE skill slot like EBSoH to boost your damage further, then it is only fair that I also use a PvE skill slot to boost even more DPS into my calculation of my ES+Overload combination which already trumps your Invoke+Weaken Armor combination.

Quote:

I'm not sure where you go, but I don't have enemies reliably grouping up as more than 3 unless I spend time setting up pulls and etc. In addition, Invoke is nearby range on each strike, meaning that one hit can bounce to a nearby target - and the next one has a range nearby to that target, and so on for the third. The bouncing means it's extremely likely to hit all 3 targets.

Since you want to consider caster armor rating, caster groups tend to be bunched up together. Look at the caster group outside of Doomlore, I am sure there are more than 3 charr casters within a nearby range.

Plutoman · May 15, 2011, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Feel free to take out EBSoH

It adds relatively little anyways, <10%. Cracked armor provides ~30% of the increase in damage, I've said earlier that I wouldn't use and dislike using EBSoH. Since it's been a common factor though for people to say, I calculated it in.

Since this is with heroes, I'd just use the factors for weaken armor + invoke. And with cracked armor, invoke is comparable to 1.8 E-surges or so. And if you want to bring a second damage skill in, let's add in Chain Lightning too. And then you need to consider that Overload is adjacent and conditional, and heroes don't use it well.

I've been VQ'ing Tyria as of late, and there's rarely groups larger than 6. Hitting more than 3 is unlikely throughout prophecies. As I've said, that debate is more personal opinion, and is based on the area you are in. If you do the DoA, then you're almost guaranteed to hit more than 3 enemies at a time. :P In cases like those, you want damage that isn't limited. That comes down to the idea of not trying to use the same build for everything in the game - using a bit of flexibility - I mean, ANet gave us template codes for a reason. It's easy to switch stuff around.

I do believe I've shown my point :P

Daesu · May 15, 2011, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

Since this is with heroes, I'd just use the factors for weaken armor + invoke. And with cracked armor, invoke is comparable to 1.8 E-surges or so. And if you want to bring a second damage skill in, let's add in Chain Lightning too. And then you need to consider that Overload is adjacent and conditional, and heroes don't use it well.

Heroes use Overload well enough.

I only brought in Overload because you brought you Weaken Armor (which is your second skill), first. Inflicting cracked armor is not a property of Invoke, but a condition inflicted by Weaken Armor. If you bring in Chain Lightning, I can bring in Wastrel's Demise into the mix. If you keep adding boosting skills for a more impressive damage of Invoke, then I can keep adding damage skills for each booster skill that you have added, to show a more impressive combined DPS. Afterall, it is the SAME number of skill slots used.

I do believe I have shown my point too.

The Josip · May 15, 2011, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Invoke+Chain Lightning = only two useful skills. 1+2sec cast, vulnerable to enchantment stripping. Other skills: buffing these two so that they can compete.

Advantage: foes being nearby. Disadvantage: foes being adjacent / stragglers. If all foes are constantly nearby, Invoke+Chain Lightning may have the edge (lazy to do the math now). If adjacent / stragglers, completely lose to Unnatural Signet / Spiritual Pain / Overload / other.

Advantage: three foes in many areas. Disadvantage: mobs where E-Surge hits for far more. Less than three foes.

Advantage: after casting Invoke+Chain Lightning plenty of time for picnic.
Disadvantage: weather may be bad; mesmers keep casting skills like mad.

Advantage: pure damage. Disadvantage: the other fellows do damage plus mitigation.

Advantage: unconditional. Disadvantage: the fun is in unpredictability and randomness. And sometimes efficiency too.