Curse

DJ_HyDRA · Jun 17, 2011, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Hi all, haven't posted in a while, but I've been racking my brain trying to synergize my hero build. For some reason I keep wiping due to overaggro, or other random things. I just wanted to get some assistance on anything I might be missing or doing wrong.

I should mention though, that my team does consist solely of mercenary heroes, and I am hoping that I can keep the primary professions as they are. I'm hoping you'll keep this in mind when providing criticism.

My current builds are as follows:

Me: (Rt)
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Necro1 (N/Rt) - BiP Resto support
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Necro2 (N/Rt) - Xinrae Resto heals
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Ritualist (Rt/N) - AotL Minion Bomber
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Mesmer1 (Me/Rt) - Illusion Shutdown
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Mesmer2 (Me/Rt) - Domination Shutdown
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Elementalist (E/Mo) - ER Prot
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Monk (Mo/P) - UA Smite support
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What I'm noticing is that my mesmers burn through their energy VERY quickly and my necro ends up losing most of her health BiPing them. In turn, she's usually targetted by enemies and gets obliterated. That means I lose not only my energy, but my secondary healer as well. In huge battles this puts a gigantic strain on my team, even with UA and the DPact Sigs. Ive tried taking BiP out and replacing a few of the mesmer skills with more self-management energywise, but then my damage output tanks and I get steamrolled in some of the harder areas. Any help would be greatly appreciated, doubly so if you can keep my team composition together.

Thanks for any input I get =)

Saxon · Jun 17, 2011, 05:24 PM // 17:24

I'm not able to check the builds your using at the moment. But I would suggest checking out gwpvx.com for some good proven builds.

Here are two 7 hero builds on the site:
http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_7_Hero_Discordway
http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_7_Hero_Player_Support

Personally I usually roll with:
N/Rt - SoLS healer
N/Mo - MM/Protter
N/P - Curses/Fall Back w/res
Me/Mo - Panic w/res
Rt - SoS w/res

All of my Necros have "Animate Bone Fiends". And you could toss UA on the n/mo if you'd like.

My Optionals:
Rt/P - SoGM/Fall Back - For more spirit spamming
E/Mo - emo protter - For more heal
Mo/Me - RoJ nuker - When among the dead
D/N - Dwanya's Orders - For melee and minion support
Me - Esurge or Ineptitude - energy and melee denial

And believe it or not, but modding up your heros (hp runes/insignia and +1 attribute) makes a significant difference when in HM. I do a lot of PvE and have rolled through lots of HM/Dungeons/VQ's etc with these builds.

The Guildless · Jun 17, 2011, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Well, overaggro is not something you can fix with builds but with tactics!

Seriously though, I get the feeling you're being overly careful and bringing way too much healing there. I'm no build master but I'd suggest making one of your necros a lot more damage oriented so you can kill them before they kill you.

If you're struggling with big packs of baddies, consider using snares to keep them at bay for a while longer. Deep freeze, although costly, has a AoE and fixed time so you don't necessarily need to invest in Water Magic. That's just one example. If you're struggling against melee attackers, spreading Blind would also be a good idea (Blinding surge comes to mind).

Telling us in which area you're currently struggling can also help!

DJ_HyDRA · Jun 17, 2011, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Thx Saxon. I got a few of the builds off of PvX and modified them a bit to my playing style already. My heroes are also fully runed and have appropriate weapons.

For those who cant plug in the skill bar codes, I'll type out what each hero is using.

Necro1 > Blood is Power - Sig of Lost Souls - Enfeebling Blood - Shadow of Fear - Kaolai - Mend B&S - Spirit Light - Spirit Transfer
Necro2 > Xinrae's - Angorodons Gaze - Foul Feast - Weapon of Warding - Kaolai - Mend B&S - Spirit Light - Life
Ritualist > AotL - Shambling Horror - DNova - Putrid Bile - Infuse Condition - Boon of Creation - Explosive Growth - FomF

Mes1 > Ineptitude - Wandering Eye - Clumsiness - Sig of Clumsiness - Frustration - Arcane Conundrum - Power Drain - DPact sig
Mes2 > Panic - Mistrust - Unnatural sig - Cry of Frustration - Overload - Shatter Hex - Power Drain - DPact sig

Ele > Reverse Hex - PSpirit - Spirit Bond - Shield of Absorption - Shield Guardian - Aegis - Ether Renewal - Aura of Resto
Monk > Unyielding Aura - Reversal of Damage - Smite Hex - Smite Condition - Castigation Sig - Cure Hex - Smiter's Boon - Holy Wrath

@Guildless - It's mostly AoE heavy areas, ele bosses, that sort of thing. I'll try switching my BiP necro to be more aggressive with Curses, but is one healer really enough for the whole team? Also I'll see if I can shove in that water hex somewhere

chuckles79 · Jun 17, 2011, 05:52 PM // 17:52

At a casual glance, it appears you are light on offense; which is bad as being light on defense. Other than SoS and minion bombing, I don't see any heavy hitting skills there.
You have 3 restos, 1 protter, and a smite protter.

If you can't pump damage, then you are always going to lose a prolonged fight.

Switch your UA hybrid to RoJ smite support for a reliable nuke. Swap your ER Protter with a SoGM rit hero and put arcane mimicry on yourself to copy SoGM on your character (I'm assuming you are SoS).

Lastly I'd prefer a curses necro instead of BIP hero, but play around with what's above and see how it goes.

chuckles79 · Jun 17, 2011, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Additionally you only have 11 in channeling with your character.
It doesn't look like you are runed up either. I would get at least a headpiece of channeling and at least a minor if not major rune of channeling.
You want at least 14 if not 15 in Chan. for bloodsong and SoS (that's your main damage).
Swap Pain and Armor for Spirit Siphon and perhaps agony (since you use the painful bond hex). Leave your remaining points in Spawning and resto.

It's been said, but assure that your heroes are fully runed as well, it makes a big difference; especially with radiant insignia on casters and at least a major rune of vigor (expensive, but well worth it)

Here's a general template for it: OAOjAyhF5SVTMTXTdilT+gDgXMA

GL

Plutoman · Jun 17, 2011, 06:01 PM // 18:01

AoE heavy areas you'll probably want an ST Rit, instead of an E/Mo. The Ele is one of the best in single target protection; but for party wide? You need either more tactical control or party-wide protection. Don't get me wrong, the E/Mo is great. Just, each has their own separate areas they excel in.

The Rit, the spawning power rit bomber is a bit dated. The damage isn't amazing, and the minions die fast. I'd run more of a mixed MM, or a sole minion master. The minions are key in helping to distribute damage, if you have a party that uses them. If you do use minions, it's typically (not always, but typically) best not to use the ST Rit.

But, the point should be said that it's overkill on healing. You have heals coming in from 5 of the heroes, and you should be more offensively focused. Tip; you shouldn't need more than 2 sources of healing, and 2 sources of protection, at the absolute most. I'd use another mesmer, ideally - e-surge, instead of the second necro, and run the first necro as dedicated healing. I'd use the MM as damage mitigation more so than damage in itself (though secondary /rt with ancestor's rage/splinter is always nice). With those changes, you would have primary healing from one necro, secondary healing from the smiter, and protection from the ele.

@above - the ER Prot is the source of protection. You don't typically want to drop that - it'll easily pull it's weight better than 2-3 other healers. Dropping a healer is a better choice than dropping protection. He also said he's runed his heroes up. ^^

Xenomortis · Jun 17, 2011, 06:07 PM // 18:07

You don't do damage and have way too much ineffective support.
Cut both Necs and turn the Rit into a Necromancer. Shove Prot Spirit and Aegis onto the now N/Mo AotL. Take a good source of heals (a monk does fine).
I assume you're running spirits (can't quickly decode builds at the moment), so you and the MM and the Panic Mes is basically all the defense you need. Focus on ways to kill the enemy.

So I'd cut the Illusion Mes, your current Smite monk, the ER Ele as well as the Necs I mentioned and take builds that do damage. Give your Panic Mes another energy skill.

Ways to do damage with heroes; Invoke, ESurge+Mistrust, Spirits, Minions, Curses Necs (at the bottom of the pile though). You already have Spirits and Minions.

The Guildless · Jun 17, 2011, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ_HyDRA

@Guildless - It's mostly AoE heavy areas, ele bosses, that sort of thing. I'll try switching my BiP necro to be more aggressive with Curses, but is one healer really enough for the whole team? Also I'll see if I can shove in that water hex somewhere

Hmm sounds like a job for your mesmers, and as you said they run out of energy too fast to kill the casters. In addition to Power Drain, consider bringing Waste Not, Want Not and/or Leech Signet (maybe drop Shatter Hex since you've got your Monk dealing with that and a Dead Pact Sig. on the other mesmer) and see how well they fare. I also run similar mesmers and they manage they energy pretty well without BiP.

Also, against Ele bosses, I can't help but mention Pain Inverter. Just cast that and let him kill himself. One or two hits should suffice.

Also, how is it looking equipment/rune-wise?

Overall I'd say you must really hate those hexes (Shatter Hex, Smite Hex, Cure Hex, Reverse Hex). In a hex heavy zone that might be okay, but I feel that's a little overkill for day-to-day use. As I said, dropping Shatter Hex might free up some room for extra dmg/energy management.

DJ_HyDRA · Jun 17, 2011, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Thx chuckles but skillbars never take into account the bonuses of runes. My rit may only have 11 hard points in channeling but he's got a +4 headpiece bringing him to 15 Channeling. My heroes are 100% runed up, though they all have Survivor and not Radiant. Which ones would benefit from the extra energy? Also, if I'm to remove BiP from my team I wanna make sure my mesmers have some form of reliable energy regeneration. Should I opt for the less powerful Blood Renewal instead? I seem to notice that whenever I dont bring either of those skills my mesmers are at a constant 0-5 energy, meaning that they're just being dead weight/meatshields. Should I give them the Radiants instead of Survivors? Oh all my heroes have +50HP runes, so no problems there.

also Im gonna switch out Pain for Anguish (Agony does 10 dmg/second, Anguish does the double dmg when hexed) but my energy never dips so low as to warrant Spirit Siphon, which is why I have Unfeeling in its place.

**EDIT** OK so here's what Ive changed so far. I dont wanna make it seem like Im shrugging off certain peoples advice but im REALLY trying to keep the primary professions as I dont wanna hafta create new PvP chars to replace the ones I have.

I am now running Anguish for the delicious double damage

Curses necro is now Pain of Disenchantment and removed all healing skills, she is full curses now (Pain of Disenchantment - Shadow of Fear - Enfeebling Blood - Rip Enchantment - Weaken Armor - SoLS - Spirit Rift - Ancestor's Rage)
Healer necro remains the same
Ritualist is now Soul Twisting Prot spirits (ST - Shelter - Union - Displacement - Wastenot Wantnot - Power Drain - Boon - FomF)

Mes 1 removed Shatter Hex and replaced with Wastenot Wantnot
Mes2 removed DPact sig and replaced with Wastenot Wantnot

Ele changed to Invoke damage (invoke - Chain lightning - Enervating Charge - Shell Shock - Arc Lightning - Lightning Strike - Aura of Resto - Air Attunement)
Monk switched to RoJ smite (removed Holy Wrath for Arcane Echo, UA for RoJ)

Xenomortis · Jun 17, 2011, 06:27 PM // 18:27

As a general rule, unless you have clear, specific reasons for doing so and you've made up in other ways (which you haven't); never take Radiant Insignia or Attunement Runes. They don't fix or alleviate anything.

42 energy (wand and focus) and +4 regen with two or three energy management skills is sufficient for a Mesmer hero.

DJ_HyDRA · Jun 17, 2011, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

As a general rule, unless you have clear, specific reasons for doing so and you've made up in other ways (which you haven't); never take Radiant Insignia or Attunement Runes. They don't fix or alleviate anything.

42 energy (wand and focus) and +4 regen with two or three energy management skills is sufficient for a Mesmer hero.

ok then, no radiant or attunement runes. Ive outlined the changes Ive made thus far in the above post, lemme know if anythign else needs to be changed before I do a test run to see how it performs

Xenomortis · Jun 17, 2011, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Since removing the MM, you now do less damage.
Also, Lightning Strike, Arc Lightning, Enervating and Shell Shock are poor choices. Leave it at Invoke, Chain and Lightning Orb.
I also doubt the hero smiter will use Arcane Echo on Ray of Judgement. I'd give him an energy skill instead.

DJ_HyDRA · Jun 17, 2011, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Since removing the MM, you now do less damage.
Also, Lightning Strike, Arc Lightning, Enervating and Shell Shock are poor choices. Leave it at Invoke, Chain and Lightning Orb.
I also doubt the hero smiter will use Arcane Echo on Ray of Judgement. I'd give him an energy skill instead.

ok well Ive gotta have prot from somewhere... Should I keep the ER Prot ele and switch back to the MM rit, or stay without a MM and try to boost the eles damage output? Also, what other skills should I use on the Invoke, if the other Lit damage skills aren't good choices?

Xenomortis · Jun 17, 2011, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Keep the MM, but make him a Necromancer.
I recommend cutting your current Curses Necromancer because he does bugger with only Pain of Disenchantment.
Then replace the Smiter with a better source of damage and possibly replace your Ineptitude Mes for an ESurge Mes or something. Actually, with Soul Twisting, attack spirits and minions, you have so much defense you could replace Panic for Energy Surge too.

Thock · Jun 17, 2011, 06:48 PM // 18:48

My advice:

Me: (Rt) - no problems here.

Necro1 (N/Rt) - BiP Resto support: BiP just doesn't work well on heroes, especially with the setup you are using. Yourself, the two necros, and the er prot never need it, put a lil extra energy management on the rest of your bars and they will be fine.

Necro2 (N/Rt) - Xinrae Resto heals: There is no need for foul feast when you already have 2 copies of mbas and xinrae's. I also would recommend sols over angorodon's, faster cast time and shorter recharge, and it doesn't work well without foul feast.

Ritualist (Rt/N) - AotL Minion Bomber - I never really liked rits as mm's, only 8 minions, they don't have the energy to spam dn, explosive growth doesn't ignore armor, they don't have the utility slots available that a necro mm does, and because the minions are lower level they have less armor and are more likely to take crits. But given the basic layout you already have there isnt much else to do with the rit.

Mesmer1 (Me/Rt) - Illusion Shutdown - Heroes tend to spam clumsiness, it holds a higher priority than inept and wandering eye, which are better damage. Frustration is gimmicky and your build has no enchant removal, replace with accumulated pain and drain enchantment.

Mesmer2 (Me/Rt) - Domination Shutdown - Drop overload for more energy management, WNWN is a good choice.

Elementalist (E/Mo) - ER Prot - Don't see any problems here. PS and SB are kinda overkill in my experience, hero just tends to spam both on the same target, consider energy blast, your build is very defensive as is and its a nice single target armor ignoring nuke.

Monk (Mo/P) - UA Smite support - Most pve mobs do not run hexes that bother casters all that much, I see no need for so much hex removal and cure hex is the underperformer here, I'd drop it for more damage or energy management. Holy wrath rarely does much damage when there isn't someone running in to tank the initial damage. That said there isn't much to replace it with.

Another possibility is to change the bip to a cuses/resto hybrid, the mm to a st prot with pain anguish and shelter, and the er to invoke. You would be losing the minions but with basically 2.5 healers and plenty of spirits you should be ok and you would have better damage output.

I also run an sos rit, I know you are trying to stick with using just merc heroes but maybe my setup will give you some ideas:

DJ_HyDRA · Jun 17, 2011, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Jagged or AotL for MM? I can never decide which to take

Thock · Jun 17, 2011, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ_HyDRA

Jagged or AotL for MM? I can never decide which to take

aotl imo, mms have a problem with staying with the group, jagged just exacerbates that.

DJ_HyDRA · Jun 18, 2011, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Just letting everyone know, I did some trial runs with my new hero team and am very pleased at the results. The mesmers are doing an excellent job keeping their energy high, and switching my curses necro to an MM and giving my rit ST + Communing has seemed to increase my damage output. Overall I'm taking far less damage and dishing out much more. Thanks everyone for your input =)

Xenomortis · Jun 18, 2011, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thock

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3566/ritsetup.jpg

Three backline characters is overkill. At least get rid of one of the N/Rts for more damage.
And Icy Veins is a token skill. So is Energy Blast really.