Curse

Daesu · May 20, 2011, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Prot Spirit alone, or Prot Bond has been fine for me in FoW. I'm using a Fiery Sunspear and Serrated Shield on each hero that gives +15 armor against physicals, and my blind is AoEd by using fevered dreams. I cant drop the signet mesmer because thats actually my primary source of spammable armor ignoring AoE. The signet mesmer actually can carry prot bond and I could put that on myself and the bip, but this will require manual casting which would slow me down and make the comparisons unfair. I normally play an E/Mo protter in places where I need more protection, but FoW doesnt.

FoW is a lot easier than other elite areas, it doesnt need a prot elly or a ST rit to easily complete, and running a prot elly all the time feels too tiring, I want a nice a simple build like Invoke or Thunderclap now.

I am not asking you to drop your signet mesmer. I am saying you can reduce the amount of red barring that you carry within your team, if you just bring better prots.

Replacing heals with more damage spells would yield better performance. You have 12 healing skills + PwK + Spirit's Gift, not to mention Renew Life which are res that grants further healing. That seems like a lot of heals to me, certainly too many for FoW NM, which I have also cleared before using heroes. With that much defense and healing, do you really need Thunderclap?

Golgotha · May 20, 2011, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Tried to get a little goofy with a Keystone Mesmer today with the intention of a Signet of Pious Restraint and a low recharge Derv enchantment for constant cripple on top of the usual Keystone goodies. Of course, the hero would cast the signet first, enchantment after most of the time. I'll try some other enchantment combos.

Jeydra · May 20, 2011, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

In this case though we're in luck, because I have Raisu Palace screenshots where I was pushing for max speed. When I get the time I'll run through Raisu again with BiP. I'm betting I'll get a time <8:30, but we'll see.

Just tried it for a time of 8:13. I'm using a lousy laptop with bad resolution, so I can't see all my hero bars when I'm playing, and I realized halfway into the run I was playing on windowed mode too so ... probably improvable until there's little to no difference between this time and that of my original build. All builds probably improvable too, as well as equipment (I don't have a 40/40 Curses set ... or a Curses staff, for that matter. Anyone can give me one?

). Screenshot available on request.

@Plutoman - Thunderclap is bad. So many better mass caster shutdown spells available, including but not limited to Panic, Arcane Conundrum, Technobabble + Extend Conditions, etc etc etc. Elementalist elite choices right now is something like AP >> Invoke >> everything else, ER included, when playing with 7H.

Lanier · May 20, 2011, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Plutoman - Thunderclap is bad. So many better mass caster shutdown spells available, including but not limited to Panic, Arcane Conundrum, Technobabble + Extend Conditions, etc etc etc. Elementalist elite choices right now is something like AP >> Invoke >> everything else, ER included, when playing with 7H.

I can't speak for thunderclap's effectiveness, since i have yet to use and observe it on a hero bar, but panic has always been overrated in my opinion. I have never found it to be that useful, especially on hero bars. I think that at first, people caught on to the fad of using a cool looking skill, and now that its meta, everyone defaults to using it on their domination bars. In the rare occasions that I even run a domination mesmer anymore, I'll use e-surge.

Golgotha · May 20, 2011, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I can't speak for thunderclap's effectiveness, since i have yet to use and observe it on a hero bar, but panic has always been overrated in my opinion. I have never found it to be that useful, especially on hero bars. I think that at first, people caught on to the fad of using a cool looking skill, and now that its meta, everyone defaults to using it on their domination bars. In the rare occasions that I even run a domination mesmer anymore, I'll use e-surge.

Pulling correctly means Panic shuts down everything around it for 66% of the time. It's insane to not bring it in heavy caster areas. Less caster heavy? Then E-surge is a definite swap. They're interchangeable dependent on area.

Lanier · May 20, 2011, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Pulling correctly means Panic shuts down everything around it for 66% of the time. It's insane to not bring it in heavy caster areas. Less caster heavy? Then E-surge is a definite swap. They're interchangeable dependent on area.

maybe its because I dont micro my heroes or make a dedicated effort to pull, but when im just running from mob to mob, my observations of a panic hero mesmer have been underwhelming. Plus, I don't really like using skills that require microing or dedicated pulling/balling.

Plutoman · May 20, 2011, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Plutoman - Thunderclap is bad. So many better mass caster shutdown spells available, including but not limited to Panic, Arcane Conundrum, Technobabble + Extend Conditions, etc etc etc. Elementalist elite choices right now is something like AP >> Invoke >> everything else, ER included, when playing with 7H.

It's not 'bad', just not great. It's a decent choice, more useful for PvP such as thunderclap -> gale, but for single long duration shutdown thunderclap -> YMLaD isn't too bad (note I'm not saying it's great, but I'd stick it in the middle tier unless you start factoring in pve skills). Technobabble + extend is probably the best bet on daze though. AP takes some focus and thinking, along with ER. Invoke's probably the best relaxing elite I'd use.

Also, I'd disagree with ER :/ I can run solo both protection and healing as an ER for an entire team. It's a lot of work, but as an ER Infuse/Prot, I can take 7 full slots of damage and support, instead of relying on two heroes to do the job. As an ele, it's probably more efficient, because the damage bar doesn't go up that much more in contrast to a hero, while other classes tend to have a much higher damage performance with players. But, eh, who knows.

*Exceptions for ER include dungeons with those flying things coming out of the ceilings, and some elite areas, mainly DoA, because mirror of disenchantment is so evil.

Dzjudz · May 20, 2011, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Pulling correctly means Panic shuts down everything around it for 66% of the time. It's insane to not bring it in heavy caster areas. Less caster heavy? Then E-surge is a definite swap. They're interchangeable dependent on area.

Should be closer to 95-100% with 11 Fast Casting (10s duration, 10s recharge). I usually bring it only in areas with very large and/or dangerous groups (i.e. Slavers' Exile, DoA etc.), otherwise I just swap it for ESurge. Usually I bring 3 mesmers anyway (1 illusion, 2 domination) and there's enough shutdown present without Panic.

Jeydra · May 22, 2011, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Thunderclap is a bad skill. I don't recall seeing it the PvP meta except (vaguely) a few times in HA, and it never took hold. Weak skill. If you wanted Dazed in PvP anyway you'd take BHA. Even if you didn't want to use PvE skills, you have better options: Invoke, SF, Earth Magic. List goes on.

As for ER, you can use ER quite effectively, but heroes function significantly worse without the player to coordinate them. You don't have much to gain by running ER anyway. Sure you can heal the entire team, but then again I've been running around with 2 semi-healers (both with damage) and that works out perfectly, so why bother? It's not a matter of not doing difficult content either. 2 semi-healers CAN get through Foundry HM, although it's very much of a knife-edge.

@Lanier - yes Panic is overrated but compared to Thunderclap it's godlike.

Regarding BiP, I've come to decide I won't be using it. It's not a bad skill, but if you use BiP you also have to reshuffle your heroes each time you do the areas where you can only bring 4/6 characters (since in those areas the first character I drop is the BiP). I'm lazy, so BiP's not for me.

The Josip · May 22, 2011, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Regarding BiP, I've come to decide I won't be using it. It's not a bad skill, but if you use BiP you also have to reshuffle your heroes each time you do the areas where you can only bring 4/6 characters (since in those areas the first character I drop is the BiP). I'm lazy, so BiP's not for me.

In 4 man areas I bring 3 mesmers + ER ele. No BiP. But for those who want efficiency, a MM would be in the team I suppose (as well as spirit spammer), which for me would mean BiP instead of AotL. As much as people say how great AotL is, I never saw it as a great skill, and don't think it's better than BiP anyway (on a MM).

Same in 6-man areas. If you're bringing MM that means BiP.

I don't play 4-6man areas anymore at all - I've no reason to (unless PuGing) and they lower the efficiency of my team since I use mesmers. That means that your Invoke will still hit 3 people in these areas, but my Energy Surges and Mistrusts won't catch 6-8 people (as you said, a build modification would be needed, and who wants to do that all the time).

The Josip · May 22, 2011, 07:04 PM // 19:04

BTW LexTalionis - I think you should keep updating the first post, regarding the mesmer hero AI. It would be much easier than people having to check every post here.

Another update - heroes use Guilt on everything. Including physicals.

Plutoman · May 23, 2011, 01:13 AM // 01:13

At some point I want to start a thread about creating an good team (the theory and mechanics of what makes a good team build, and explore various decisions to make), and explore the various hero options for damage. This'll be a good thread to link too. But when that'll happen depends on how soon I get back to GW, I've been playing Oblivion a tad too much lately.

There's a lot of solid information in this thread, a lot of petty bickering, a lot of good debating, and more random information. Lex made a really good overview on mesmers, it's a lot of quality information in his first post.

LexTalionis · May 25, 2011, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Sorry sirs, I've been taking a break from the forums as promised to take care of RL issues. I'll update the first post with the information you've provided while I'm free.

I don't mind if you repost anything I wrote or consolidate it into another thread (the Hero AI one?) or anything; the thread got a little off-topic halfway through, and it might not be the easiest thing to read through.

Jeydra · May 25, 2011, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

As much as people say how great AotL is, I never saw it as a great skill, and don't think it's better than BiP anyway (on a MM).

No offense, but this is not a good argument for BiP being better than AotL.

I do 6-man areas a fair bit (Wanted quests), but 4-man areas are very rare. If you're bringing 3 Mesmers + ER Ele then without the BiP you'll have to reroll your Mesmers too, so yeah.

The Josip · May 25, 2011, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

No offense, but this is not a good argument for BiP being better than AotL.

I do 6-man areas a fair bit (Wanted quests), but 4-man areas are very rare. If you're bringing 3 Mesmers + ER Ele then without the BiP you'll have to reroll your Mesmers too, so yeah.

Yea but you'd have to reroll anyway as mesmer builds depend on the enemies, and size of mobs matters. I'm still going to favor BiP over AotL, but I lack time to do tests and all that, and besides I'd still use BiP anyway as long as I have fun with it. I've GWAMM and full HoM, and since the difference between most decent builds today is very small I might as well use fun stuff. I don't do Wanted anymore, so can't give much of a feedback on that, especially since 6-man 'Wanted' area can differ a lot from some other 6-man area.

I mainly use this thread to see what heroes can use and what not. I'm not really concerned about BiP, I use it now, tomorrow I may use something else. BiP is about me playing more, about me having double energy and then some. AotL is just outsourcing stuff to heroes. It's what I'd use if I wanted to C+space.

Premium Unleaded · Jun 07, 2011, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Question re: overload since it isn't clear in the OP -

Do heroes still use it when target is currently hexed with it already? ie. AI still classifies it as only "interrupt-type" usage, and not "hex-type (so doesn't maintain/stack) + interrupt-type".

LexTalionis · Jun 24, 2011, 04:07 AM // 04:07

@Premium Unleaded:

Sorry for the late reply - I've been moving house between countries and haven't had much time to play Guild Wars.

No, they won't. I've tested this on the Master of Hexes (he casts a lot) in the Island of the nameless. Nonstacking Hex AI priority always takes precedence. That's one of the reasons why I use Shatter Delusions and Drain Delusions, but it's at most a minor annoyance since the hex only lasts for 5 seconds.

AndrewSX · Jun 24, 2011, 06:31 AM // 06:31

So, in other words, Overload can be safely used as feeder hex for Shatter-Drain delusion (and all skill that benefit from mes hex like unnatural sig).
But it's from the domination line: there are other skill that words good for that purpose in Illusion for example? (thinking to Frag and Calculated mainly).

LexTalionis · Jun 24, 2011, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Yes, but no practical hexes with obvious synergy other than Arcane Conundrum. If you're playing a mesmer yourself, try Web of Disruption (unless you're okay with heroes not actually interrupting anything with it). If you don't care about the lack of synergy, just about anything works. Go with Shared Burden or something.

Since Shatter Delusions is in Domination magic itself (full of great feeders like Panic, Enchanter's Conundrum and Overload), there's little reason to actually use an Illusion magic feeder hex. If you just need fodder for drain delusions, but can't afford a Domination mesmer, just stick with Arcane Conundrum or shrinking armor/phantom pain. Having a hex with a shorter cooldown than Drain Delusions isn't really going to help a lot. Don't bother with the burdens, the 15e cast creates issues with hero AI pretty often.