Curse

HigherMinion · May 18, 2011, 10:30 AM // 10:30

It depended on the area. I ran IJaFW when using Death Nova, and OoU without DN. Although DN is better than Botm...

The Josip · May 18, 2011, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Play in FoW/any elite area where these posters are deriving their builds?

(speaking in general, not directed at you in person)

Elite areas - DoA, UW, FoW. That's 3. Plus Urgoz and Deep if you decide to play with 8-man party.

When talking about hero builds in general, why the hell would FoW be a reference for anything? If someone is so dull that he always plays FoW or grinds whatever other 1 area, then that has relevance in threads such as "UW with heroway", and only there.

I don't see what makes these elite areas special - it's not like they're impossible to do with heroes so that you will become renowned throughout the world if you finish them - at least FoW is easy. It's not like you can do them faster with heroes than with PuG. And it's not like they bring you more money when playing with heroes because AFK of Glint gives way more than FoW. And it's not like these builds work good elsewhere. For example, the creature I'll quote below has not a single FallBack, which makes the build inferior in general PvE areas of any kind.

Moreover, I am appalled by the general attitude of the community which considers the only acceptable build the current FotM. Maybe, just maybe someone doesn't really want to have a minion master. Maybe, just maybe someone doesn't want to have a spirit spammer. And maybe, just maybe someone doesn't want to turn Guild Wars into a poor strategy game where you play by constantly micromanaging - controlling other NPCs (that includes flagging). Take out micromanagement and suddenly all these "good" builds crumble into dust.

If this forum came down to "only allowed to post best build for area X" then that's really sad. It doesn't teach anyone anything. And doesn't contribute to fun factor of anyone but devout grinders whose sole goal is to increase their e-peen by saying they can finish FoW 1 minute faster than the others - by using Mercenaries at that. I can see why Upier plays NM.

---

The name of this thread is not "speed clear of FoW", the name is "(Overview) Mesmer hero AI - general tips and opinionated comments."

I have given feedback on why BiP is good with mesmer heroes (good and viable - mind you - and not necessarily always the best option). It works with all variations of mesmer hero builds (except Keystone). Most importantly, it also aids mesmer player who can now use a different skillbar and play more actively, with a less constrained skillbar. No need for wanding while energy regens, or waiting for foe to cast, hopefully, some easily-interrupted spell so you can PDrain it (if heroes don't interrupt it faster). My recommendation of BiP is based on my long experience of Mesmer class and all variety of builds including melee ones, as well as constant observation of mesmer heroes.

But hey, I'm someone who even used FA PvP build in PvE, with Crippling Anguish and Frustration. What do I know.. the final truth has been revealed, we will all be saved if we accept it. And don't try anything new because all that's needed is already in the Book, and what's not in it should not be done. As I'm not religious, this forum seems to have lost usefulness for me and I will not spend more time typing.

So I humbly apologize for intrusion. I was reading thread subject without glasses, and it looked like there's "MESMER", "GENERAL TIPS", "OPINIONATED COMMENTS". But I Can See Clearly Now, and it really says: "Ultimate Hardcore Build for All of PvE (meaning: FoW) - All Other Skills and Builds are for Those with Small E-Peen / Learn How to Play".

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

you definitely do not need Bip because plenty of people have already easily managed all the PVE legendary titles with full caster teams without needing Bip

So this creature here thinks that a skill is bad if PvE title can be gained without that skill. There are two logical conclusions:

1. All skills are horrible.
2. The creature possesses limited mental abilities and talk crap.

Considering that "good / bad" here is relative, logically it is impossible that all skills are horrible. Therefore the only logical conclusion is that it talks crap.

bhavv · May 18, 2011, 04:29 PM // 16:29

No, I said that it is bad because there are a lot better elites that I would rather take over Bip.

And Bip is not required at all because heroes do not have any energy problems when set up correctly and can manage everything in the whole game easily without needing it.

So why would I want to waste a necro elite slot on Bip? There are far too many decent Necro eltes that I would rather take instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

But hey, I'm someone who even used FA PvP build in PvE, with Crippling Anguish and Frustration. What do I know..

Big deal, why do you need to take skill criticisms so personally and begin whining so much?

I can do most things in PVE easily with either an empty skill bar, no elites anywhere in my group, or using only the core skills. That doesnt mean that any of those builds are good, it just means that most of PVE is too easy based on the many different possibilities of skill combinations we can take.

Plutoman · May 18, 2011, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

there that will manage that fine without requiring Bip as well. Multiple mesmers are really only being used by people for end game content where they outperform every other class with their completely epic damage and shutdown ability. You dont actually need them for NM or HM missions / vanqs / normal PVE stuff, and you definitely do not need Bip because plenty of people have already easily managed all the PVE legendary titles with full caster teams without needing Bip.

First - bringing up titles and etc is pointless. Some people prefer to get titles faster. I use 3 mesmers + in every day activities, not elite areas, because they are powerful and it's easier and faster.

Secondly, mesmers DO run out of energy. Particularly the ineptitude mesmers, who burns through it like mad with fast recharging 10e spells. Power drain's don't work well at all, because if I'm calling targets, only one can interrupt a skill. And that's only if a CoF doesn't go off first - and honestly, I'd prefer CoF to be used because it'll interrupt the group and do damage.

If I want power drain's to work, I have to plan around it (ie, not call targets, wait for energy regen after melee mobs, include multiple other energy skills when that fails, etc). With BiP, I can call targets as pleased, I don't need to worry about energy, and I can focus on damage interrupts (ie, power spike) and other skills.

BiP is not always the best choice, and you do need to plan around it. There's a lot of other good options, too. I will vehemently deny the fact that it's a garbage elite, though, because it does have a lot of value and is effective at what it does. If it was garbage, we would have never have seen those 1hp BiP necro's giving PuG's energy, because obviously they should keep up on their own :P

Premium Unleaded · May 18, 2011, 06:31 PM // 18:31

People seem not to be giving shared burden a proper look here because you're all going from a caster's perspective.
It's a cheap, relatively short rc aoe snare that keeps the mob in place so melee player can maximise the various buffs and/or aoe it's packing, like splinter/mop/DB/scythes/etc, and blow them up quickly. Also prevents the problem with runners in hm.

Outerworld · May 18, 2011, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

People seem not to be giving shared burden a proper look here because you're all going from a caster's perspective.
It's a cheap, relatively short rc aoe snare that keeps the mob in place so melee player can maximise the various buffs and/or aoe it's packing, like splinter/mop/DB/scythes/etc, and blow them up quickly. Also prevents the problem with runners in hm.

I actually quite like Shared Burden, for a 5e skill it does alot.

Plutoman · May 18, 2011, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

People seem not to be giving shared burden a proper look here because you're all going from a caster's perspective.
It's a cheap, relatively short rc aoe snare that keeps the mob in place so melee player can maximise the various buffs and/or aoe it's packing, like splinter/mop/DB/scythes/etc, and blow them up quickly. Also prevents the problem with runners in hm.

It's one of my favorite skills.

On top of preventing kiting, it prevents a lot of damage too. And makes interrupts easier.

Jeydra · May 19, 2011, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I can take full caster teams full of mesmers through FoW, UW, and parts of DoA (I'm not good enough to do a full DoA run with heroes yet, and dont have the desire to learn how, but I have completed the City with them), and never have I encountered any of them having energy problems.

Lol, isn't it obvious?

If you are using BiP you lose some of the other energy management on your Mesmers. That means you use fewer energy-returning skills like WNWN, Leech Signet, etc OR you use lower Inspiration spec. In the extreme scenario you drop Inspiration entirely and run 12/12 FC + Dom / Illusion. Can you do that with your non-Keystone Mesmers and still not run out of energy?

I bet you put BiP into the party without changing any of your other skill bars.

Stop bringing up titles, vanquishes and HM missions / WiK. They only make you look stupid. Josip's right that if your argument is "you don't need BiP to manage all PvE Legendary titles, therefore BiP is bad" then you are also implying that ALL skills are bad, because NONE are necessary to get all the PvE Legendary titles.

PS: There ARE good Blood Magic skills around, there just aren't very many of them. Take a look.

Essence Snow · May 19, 2011, 12:33 AM // 00:33

So after all this hype I decided to give Bip a go on my n/rt (usually bloodbond, op gaze, ravenous gaze and resto) to "fuel" my mesmers and others. I did not like it one bit. I found olias spamming bip away saccing himself around every corner. Are ya'll microing it or are my heros defunked with it?

Dzjudz · May 19, 2011, 01:32 AM // 01:32

The only hero that has energy problems is the Ineptitude hero in my experience. Domination heroes, especially ESurge (only 5e), don't suffer from energy problems.

Lately I've been switching Ineptitude for Shared Burden, but I do find that heroes are pretty reluctant to cast it...

Edit: like Essence, I think the most obvious spot for BiP would be on a blood resto necro. This has a few problems though. For example: saccing makes him heal himself rather than the team, him dying hurts both team energy management and team healing.

Plutoman · May 19, 2011, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

So after all this hype I decided to give Bip a go on my n/rt (usually bloodbond, op gaze, ravenous gaze and resto) to "fuel" my mesmers and others. I did not like it one bit. I found olias spamming bip away saccing himself around every corner. Are ya'll microing it or are my heros defunked with it?

I usually have him cast it pretty often. Once in a while, he has a bit of trouble with it (being reluctant to cast?) but that's not often, and that's the opposite problem to you. Usually he sacs to 66% health and gets healed, once in a while - when another hero is <5 energy, he'll sac to 33%.

Once you're used to it, it doesn't bug you as much, and I've had 2 deaths in 4 VQ's, and I run the BiP through the DoA, too, including my foundry HM completion. How's the protection on the team? I run 1-1/2 healers and a good source of protection typically, so a bit less of a glass cannon, and I have a copy of UA too. That's more to the point of building stuff around it to support and benefit from it.

@Dzjudz - micro'ing shared burden leads to great results, but otherwise, I've always had the same experience.

Daesu · May 19, 2011, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

So after all this hype I decided to give Bip a go on my n/rt (usually bloodbond, op gaze, ravenous gaze and resto) to "fuel" my mesmers and others. I did not like it one bit. I found olias spamming bip away saccing himself around every corner. Are ya'll microing it or are my heros defunked with it?

BiP is not for every team because it works best if you build around it, granting prots and heals readily whenever he sacs. If you don't, he would be a monster magnet and would probably be the first to die.

outlaw161 · May 19, 2011, 04:00 AM // 04:00

So isntead of Putting Energy mangment skills in the Heroes bars,Your putting more heals and prots to fuel the bip...I dont see the point of bringing a bip

Daesu · May 19, 2011, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by outlaw161

So isntead of Putting Energy mangment skills in the Heroes bars,Your putting more heals and prots to fuel the bip...I dont see the point of bringing a bip

Yes although I found that having a ST rit helps because the Biper gets protection from Shelter, Displacement, etc. anytime instead of having to cast Protective Spirit on him whenever he decides to sac and BiP at unpredictable times (unless you choose to micro BiP).

For Dwaynaway, he added Dark Bond to the BiPer and made him a MM for added protection. Although if played carefully, I discovered you don't really need Dark Bond or to make him a MM. It is just more risky, but I have cleared foundry NM before in that state.

http://www.gwpvx.com/User:Nanashi

HigherMinion · May 19, 2011, 09:07 AM // 09:07

But I thought the point was so you could bring more damage and kill faster... How does BiP actually benefit your team?

outlaw161 · May 19, 2011, 10:28 AM // 10:28

So if you taking more heals and prots...your losing time that your heroes use dmg skills...cus they are busy healing the bip

Jeydra · May 19, 2011, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you are using BiP you lose some of the other energy management on your Mesmers. That means you use fewer energy-returning skills like WNWN, Leech Signet, etc OR you use lower Inspiration spec. In the extreme scenario you drop Inspiration entirely and run 12/12 FC + Dom / Illusion.

That's how.

@Essence Snow - I should think using a BiP means you also need more pure red-bar in your team. Did you have that?

@above - that's narrow-minded. Consider: SoS Rit doesn't have to cast much damage skills after putting down spirits, that's why it's such an effective semi-healer. Smiting Monks heal while dealing damage, so they lose nothing by healing the BiP'er. Skills like Life and Kaolai can mop up health sacrifice easily. There might be some loss in damage output, but how do you know the BiP-enhanced offense doesn't compensate?

bhavv · May 19, 2011, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Stop bringing up titles, vanquishes and HM missions / WiK. They only make you look stupid. Josip's right that if your argument is "you don't need BiP to manage all PvE Legendary titles, therefore BiP is bad" then you are also implying that ALL skills are bad, because NONE are necessary to get all the PvE Legendary titles.

/Sigh.

Why do everyone miss the point so much? My point is that how does having a Bip speed up any content in the game - NM, HM, end game, elite content, whatever a player is doing including vanquishes and missions any more than not having Bip?

Josip told me that FoW / UW and other end game content isnt the point of this thread, so that is why I mentioned normal PVE content.

You say that taking Bip means you dont need to spec energy management skills onto other heroes which is true, but again how does this improve completion times of anything in PVE?

I asked this question before and no one answered it - How would taking a Bip necro be anymore beneficial to a group than taking a necro with a more offensive elite such as Aotl, SS or Discord? Surely the amount of power you lose from having the Bip necro, and needing to spec more healing and prots to support its Bip spamming negates any benefits that your mesmer heroes would gain from Bip.

Also, no one needs a full skill bar of 8 damage skills as you seem to imply would be an advantage with taking Bip and dropping E management skills.

Most damage builds are focused around a powerful elite and a few top tier damage skills, with enough space left for a few skills being dedicated to support or e management. Filling those latter skills up with weaker damage skills wouldnt really help to improve your teams effectiveness anymore than simply having 2-5 strong damage skills.

I measure build effectiveness very simply - speed taken to complete things, the faster the better. E.G. No one who knows better wants to spend 2.5-3 hours completing something that can be done with better builds in 1.5 hours.

Having said that, how does taking a Bip necro improve the effectiveness of your hero team to the point of significantly improving completion times / the speed at which enemy mobs die? Could anyone care to actually make comparison videos or even /age screenshots of the exact same content being done with bip and no energy management skills elsewhere, and without Bip but with none elite energy management skills?

.......

Something ontopic from me as well, anther build I made but havnt tried out yet using 4 mesmer heroes:

I've only tried it out in Isle of the nameless so far, and the fevered dreams mesmer seems to not like casting Fevered Dreams + Fragility often enough.

Jeydra · May 19, 2011, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Why do everyone miss the point so much? My point is that how does having a Bip speed up any content in the game - NM, HM, end game, elite content, whatever a player is doing including vanquishes and missions any more than not having Bip?

You say that taking Bip means you dont need to spec energy management skills onto other heroes which is true, but again how does this improve completion times of anything in PVE?

Haven't I already answered this question?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhaav

Having said that, how does taking a Bip necro improve the effectiveness of your hero team to the point of significantly improving completion times / the speed at which enemy mobs die? Could anyone care to actually make comparison videos or even /age screenshots of the exact same content being done with bip and no energy management skills elsewhere, and without Bip but with none elite energy management skills?

Good idea. Name an area, preferably something that doesn't take longer than at most 30 minutes.

PS: for someone who can't do DoA with heroes, you sure criticize BiP a lot.

bhavv · May 19, 2011, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

PS: for someone who can't do DoA with heroes, you sure criticize BiP a lot.

Or I simply didnt bother with attempting it 14 times with 12 build changes, that doesnt mean that I cant do it.

I only tried DOA with heroes twice, the first time being a fail, and the second working for the bit that I had left to do (city).

I have no desire to do anymore DoA because I dont need the gemstones or tormented weapons.

Its pretty hard not to criticize bip when you give the mad hero AI a spammable skill that sacrifices 33% health. Yes you can alter your other builds to compensate for this, but doesnt that also weaken your group?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Good idea. Name an area, preferably something that doesn't take longer than at most 30 minutes.

Feel free to pick whatever you would like to test because its been a long time since I've done anything but FoW, UW, DoA Glaiveway and PVP so I wouldnt know.

Obviously it cant be a vanq as there are too many problems with finding the last few enemies.

I dont think that something under 30 minutes would show a lot of difference though.