Curse

LexTalionis · May 17, 2011, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Actually, I haven't used Taste of Death in ages mainly because I generally don't use minions and at any rate, the AI is incredibly lazy using that skill unless they drop below 25% health (as opposed to enemies which use it any old chance they get).

In any case, it wasn't there to keep him alive but so he could churn out 4 BiPs in quick succession. Dark Bond by itself is usually enough, and having everything pile up on the necromancer was just a fantastic setup for Panic/Shatter/Splinter/Sand Shards fests.

These days, I just put Never Surrender!, Vampiric Swarm/Unholy Feast or an extra copy of Spirit Light somewhere.

Edit: Not saying that extra personal defense is completely unnecessary (although it doesn't have to come from the BiPper himself.), just a warning about Taste of Death not exactly being the best skill choice. In any case, you're either going to be relying on the BiP necro or you're going to be relying on your energy management skills on each hero, so it's not exactly a bad thing. Think of it this way - why do people usually outsource healing to dedicated healers instead of just asking every hero to bring a self heal (a la Guild Wars 2)? Because dedicated healers are usually better at it (and if your dedicated healer dies, your team is MORE likely to fold than if your BiPPer dies). Same with BiP.

Plutoman · May 17, 2011, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

All these in addition to using up an elite slot and becoming a crutch for energy management. If the BiPer dies, then the energy management capability of your team drops significantly.

That's the most significant downfall of BiP, in my experience. The protects isn't as big a deal, because the extra energy means they can typically be spammed anyways. The worst part is when the BiP hero goes down and the team is stuck in a rut. That often means a wipe in any sort of difficult area.

It's a pretty mixed skill. You either like it or you don't, and there's pros and cons to it. I like the skill for the fact that it's balanced. I tend towards liking it in a team, but it can also be a crutch, too. You usually have to make considerations for it.

Luckily, as far as elites go, 8spec is plenty manageable, and there's certain builds that aren't as critical as far as elites go. I've found the most flexible is a BiP resto necromancer, because the resto line has very few usable elites, so you can go 12/10/8 in resto/SR/blood, and it doesn't suffer from losing the elite slot nor from energy management.

Daesu · May 17, 2011, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Edit: Not saying that extra personal defense is completely unnecessary (although it doesn't have to come from the BiPper himself.), just a warning about Taste of Death not exactly being the best skill choice.

I only mentioned Taste of Death because it is in the first post of your Dwaynaway thread, maybe you should update it.

@Plutoman: Make sense on your BiP restoration comments. I'll try it out and see how that goes.

bhavv · May 17, 2011, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Bip is such a terrible waste of an elite slot, you dont need it all with the three mesmer hero builds I posted earlier.

I d agree that inspiration skills are useless for energy management on human players, but not on heroes. They almost always interrupt perfectly with Power Drain and Leech Signet, the thing you need to do islook for different energy management on each mesmer hero because you cant stack interrupts.

So Power Drain + Leech Sig on the domination bar, and WNWT and Arcane Conundrum on the Illusion bar is a wonderful synergy, then you can use a keystone sig mesmer for your third who never has to worry about energy.

My PVE Mesmer and Monk are pretty much always out of energy, I normally find that GOLE is better than any mesmer skill for E Management on both those classes.

AndrewSX · May 17, 2011, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Btw, with a team composed by 4+ casters, deserve a slot (on MM or anyone can go /N) for Blood Ritual is a good back-up choice. So, you don't waste a elite slot, there's not a huge hp sac, and you still have the extra e-management.

Obviously this can't handle the blue bar of the whole team as BiP do, but if everyone carry his own e-management skills, Blood Ritual is perfect as emergency measure(remember that heroes know the e-level of the rest of the team, so when some1 drop the blue bar under 30% will get the BR) when someone is hexed with Shame/Guilty/Depravity/etc, get rupted by P Leak and such.

LexTalionis · May 17, 2011, 08:36 PM // 20:36

I did update it, just not the image and I believe I have a very explicit line of text at the bottom of the page that said where the "current build" (not so current but stable) was actually stored on PvX, and that does not include Taste of Death and has not for over a week.

The same could be said for almost all Necromancer elites. There isn't a single Necromancer elite that's arguably stronger than BiP, especially in general situations - simply because they're very specialised or have AI issues (see: Icy Veins on a Restoration necromancer).

I've already expressed my views once before on AotL being an inferior ranger pet if you really are in an area so corpse-light that the 2-3 half dead minions it produces will seriously matter - that doesn't make it any less popular and I certainly don't go on a crusade to tell other people that AotL is a crutch and they should feel bad for using it. I'm not even going to get started on the meh-ness of Jagged Bones (and godforbid you mention FoC). If you personally think it's a bad skill, just don't use it.

Also: The problem with Blood ritual is threefold.
1) Costs 5 energy.
2) 2 second base casting time.
3) Touch range. This is far more annoying than it appears thanks to 2, especially when hero A is chasing hero B which is kiting monster C in some grotesque Benny Hill parody.

AndrewSX · May 17, 2011, 08:59 PM // 20:59

BR should be a caster-to-caster touch, no real problems with it.
And if hero 1 is kiting/taking meele damage, he should be busy at running around instead of burning ene/protted or already dead(in HM).

2 sec is annoying, but is the right downside....still good for recover between mobs.
Also, when i use it i keep it disabled and then manually re-able hero to use when i see the fight last long enough to give energy problems. Remember that BR should be used only to counter eventual e-denial than as team e-management, or for fast recovery. So everyone have his own skills to deal with ene.

5energ has never been a problem...is just that Bip is 1, lol.
But using BR over Bip free a elite slot and, why not, a charater slot to not be a necro.
For me works fine.

Outerworld · May 17, 2011, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

I've already expressed my views once before on AotL being an inferior ranger pet if you really are in an area so corpse-light that the 2-3 half dead minions it produces will seriously matter - that doesn't make it any less popular and I certainly don't go on a crusade to tell other people that AotL is a crutch and they should feel bad for using it. I'm not even going to get started on the meh-ness of Jagged Bones (and godforbid you mention FoC). If you personally think it's a bad skill, just don't use it.

Your point on Aotl seems irrelevant, if an area is corpse light then obviously you shouldn't be using minions so why even mention them? For the areas that are abundant with corpses, which are a majority, Aotl offers much more support than BiP would.

The Josip · May 17, 2011, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Most people here in the forum seem to mainly meet foes in PvE who ball up so that each and every one is "adjacent". I'm not that lucky. Is anyone willing to share tips on how to do that? I've been testing builds lately in Kurzick forest (Kurzicks are cool, as is harvesting faction), and almost all foes just tend to frequently completely spread up so much that I've been wondering what's the point of E-Surge. Nevertheless, some people take Keystone mesmers to PvE and foes gather in a town hall and fall down like market buyers to suicide bombers.

Really, how do you do it? I know it can be done in some areas, but in general that doesn't seem to be the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

That's the most significant downfall of BiP, in my experience. The protects isn't as big a deal, because the extra energy means they can typically be spammed anyways. The worst part is when the BiP hero goes down and the team is stuck in a rut.

It takes few seconds for my mesmer to rez BiPer. He lives on with less health and sacrifices less health. If he wasn't having NDE he may have casted 1 BiP that's it. BiPer is a bonus, not a critical healer character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by "bhavv

Bip is such a terrible waste of an elite slot, you dont need it all with the three mesmer hero builds I posted earlier.

First, I don't like your mesmer builds at all. Second, I don't like the rest of the skillbars either. Third, your illusion mesmer will not have enough energy to spam skills. Fourth, BiP is mathematically good skill, but some builds may not need it. Fifth, I'm wasting my time - you made up your opinion before the discussion started.

LexTalionis · May 17, 2011, 11:53 PM // 23:53

@Outerword: Do you enjoy making me repeat things I've already said?

I generally don't use minions. If an area is corpse-rich and I were to use a MM, I'd get the same amount of support with Animate Bone Minions or Bone Fiend as with AotL because AotL isn't used by the AI properly. This isn't even to bring up the fact that AotL builds bring one other minion skill anyway, which is partially redundant. Is that very difficult to understand? Or does your life and death mysteriously hinge on the +2 Death Magic effect?

@AndrewSX:
Fine fine, use it then. I'm glad you have more success with touch range spells than I do.

Real life is starting to get hectic, so I'm going to take a sabbatical from the forums for a month or two. Later.

bhavv · May 18, 2011, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

First, I don't like your mesmer builds at all. Second, I don't like the rest of the skillbars either. Third, your illusion mesmer will not have enough energy to spam skills. Fourth, BiP is mathematically good skill, but some builds may not need it. Fifth, I'm wasting my time - you made up your opinion before the discussion started.

I think you need some more practice at playing a mesmer or something.

Bip is not worth wasting an elite slot over, its a terrible waste to take that as your elite. If you are playing a mesmer yourself you would be a lot better off using a Lyssas Aura based build for energy management, heroes really dont need Bip at all if you spec them correctly.

Theres nothing wrong with the builds I posted for their purpose of FoW, and even UW farming (UW would be tweaked slightly with m going as a protter), both the domination and illusion heroes handle their energy fine, and I enjoy my 90 minute FoW completions with them. If you dont like any of the builds that I posted in that setup, then it really just shows how inexperienced you are at using heroes, which is probably why you also feel the need to use BiP.

I'd definitely rather take Aotl over a Bip hero as someone else suggested, it helps the group a lot more. I would swap out my Invoke hero for an Aotl if going into an area where minions work well.

The Josip · May 18, 2011, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I think you need some more practice at playing a mesmer or something.

I only play mesmer. It's the only PvE character I have. And I play him well.

Quote:

If you are playing a mesmer yourself you would be a lot better off using a Lyssas Aura based build for energy management, heroes really dont need Bip at all if you spec them correctly.

BiP > Lyssa's Aura

Quote:

If you dont like any of the builds that Iposted in that setup, then it really just shows how inexperienced you are at using heroes, which is probably why you also feel the need to use BiP.

Or maybe I just don't like the builds, get it? Nor you.

And like LexTalionis perhaps it's time for me to take a break as well.

Jeydra · May 18, 2011, 01:19 AM // 01:19

BiP is obviously better than BR, in spite of BR's non-elite status, because of the 2s cast and touch range. So far I've only used BR on Mesmers and on Dwayna Dervs who have time to cast it. BiP is also quite obviously a good skill and can be used to power lots of templates. With BiP you run fewer energy management skills and more damage, simple as that.

The real problem with BiP is that it 1) takes up elite slot and 2) requires some spec into Blood Magic, which is not otherwise a particularly useful line for caster primaries. Sure you can put BiP on the MM, but losing AotL is not inconsequential. When I tried it (was in Slaver's HM) not having AotL was immediately apparent. It's not about the one extra minion or +1 Death Magic. It's about being able to raise multiple tough minions at a time together with the ability to raise minions out of nothing. Another problem with BiP is that it requires health sacrifice, which tends to tax the builds I run simply because there's little direct bar push.

I guess it's up to player choice, although the teambuild will have to change to accomodate BiP. That said, I'm of opinion that Mesmers, who already have fine energy management skills in Inspiration that double as good utility to boot (Power Drain / Leech Signet / Drain Enchant especially), should just use those skills and free up the elite slot for something else.

FoxBat · May 18, 2011, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Most people here in the forum seem to mainly meet foes in PvE who ball up so that each and every one is "adjacent". I'm not that lucky. Is anyone willing to share tips on how to do that?

Play in FoW/any elite area where these posters are deriving their builds?

Truly balanced groups can be hard to ball, factions is fairly sucky in this regard (minus the elite zones...). It does help immensely to send off two ebon vanguards to grab initial aggro, pending you have enough shutdown/ally passive defense that they can survive more than 2 seconds. In most of EotN it works really well, I've seen melee break off from me to run back to the assassins and ball perfectly for some keystone death....

All things being equal nearby > adjacent, the debate is how much nearby you can get out of X dom mesmers. Esurge stacks perfectly, but the issues with mistrust and to a lesser extent CoF were already documented. Once you start looking outside of those skills it's basically wandering eye and adjacent damage. At that point I'm finding it hard to justify inept over keystones, which makes BiP less required by the party anyway, sidestepping this whole argument...

bhavv · May 18, 2011, 05:19 AM // 05:19

You only need to put 3 points in Blood Magic though to get a +4 Energy regen Bip, I strongly doubt that anyone would want to put any more blood skills on their bar for PVE.

The reasons I cant recommend it is because it is an elite, has 33% health sac, and heroes simply do not need it (Inspiration energy management is completely fine for mesmer heroes, I've never found otherwise).

I recorded a video of run through FoW with the mesmer heroes I posted earlier, and they hardly ever have energy problems and there isnt any single time I have ever been running Mesmer + elly heroes that I ever thought 'damn, I really should add Bip to my team because none of my casters have enough energy'. Its rather a bit too large to get uploaded to youtube atm though, so I will have to edit and cut it down first.

I can take full caster teams full of mesmers through FoW, UW, and parts of DoA (I'm not good enough to do a full DoA run with heroes yet, and dont have the desire to learn how, but I have completed the City with them), and never have I encountered any of them having energy problems.

If all you are doing is HM and Vanqs, there are loads of builds out there that will manage that fine without requiring Bip as well. Multiple mesmers are really only being used by people for end game content where they outperform every other class with their completely epic damage and shutdown ability. You dont actually need them for NM or HM missions / vanqs / normal PVE stuff, and you definitely do not need Bip because plenty of people have already easily managed all the PVE legendary titles with full caster teams without needing Bip.

I cannot conclude that Bip is anything other than a completely wasted elite skill for any full hero setup, nor can I recommend it to others to use in PVE.

Another way to look at it is to think, what are you losing by taking Bip? Is losing another much more useful necro elite really worth having Bip? I cant see how Bip can be more useful than having Aotl, SS, or even a Flesh Golem. Its not a top tier, and IMO not even a medium tier necro elite, and there are far too many top tier necro elites that you can be taking instead.

Daesu · May 18, 2011, 06:56 AM // 06:56

BiP can work for certain select builds and it tends to work better with a ST defensive rit in the team because of its high sac at unpredictable times.

It can work in a fast pace (i.e. high damage) caster team to help regen their energy faster. A drawback is that the BiPer is usually the first to die but a high damage caster team tends to be more of a "glass cannon" anyway.

Actually I kind of like Dwaynaway, but not because it uses AoD healing, melee AI sucks anyway, but because its support skill bars are rather nice. I have incorporated some of its ideas, with a BiPer to fuel my 3 mesmers+3 rits team and it has been working rather well.

HigherMinion · May 18, 2011, 09:20 AM // 09:20

You want an elite on your MB that makes more of a difference than AotL? Order of Undeath. It will kill things faster than you will be doing passively with BiP and any extra spells on a mesmer or two.

Outerworld · May 18, 2011, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

You want an elite on your MB that makes more of a difference than AotL? Order of Undeath. It will kill things faster than you will be doing passively with BiP and any extra spells on a mesmer or two.

Do heroes use it correctly? I'd test it myself but I can't atm.

HigherMinion · May 18, 2011, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

Do heroes use it correctly? I'd test it myself but I can't atm.

Yeah, I used it on Livia for years with /P shouts. Srs, that +4 regen from Never Surrender stopped Livia from getting butchered from the barrage of health loss from the elite!

Actually, BotM killed her more often than OoU did.

Outerworld · May 18, 2011, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Yeah, I used it on Livia for years with /P shouts. Srs, that +4 regen from Never Surrender stopped Livia from getting butchered from the barrage of health loss from the elite!

Actually, BotM killed her more often than OoU did.

Do you? I thought you always gave her IJaFW? Regardless I might try it.