Curse

Silvia Shadowback · Jul 15, 2011, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Just re-installed guild wars again after some time of not playing and have been trying to come up with a decent hero setup.

Here is what I currently have.

Me (R/Rt)
[Barrage][D-shot][Savage Shot][Favorable winds][winnowing][EBSoH][Lightning Reflexs][Summon Spirits]

3 Barrage heros (R/P)
[Barrage][D-shot][Savage Shot][Find their weakness][Go for the eyes][Stand your groud][Lightning Reflexs][Rez Sig]

[Barrage][D-shot][Savage Shot][Fall back][Bladeturn Refrain][Anthem of Envy][Lightning Reflexs][Rez Sig]

[Barrage][D-shot][Savage Shot][Hexbreaker Aria][Anthem of Weariness][Sloth Hunters shot][Lightning Reflexs][We shall return]

Orders (D/N)
[Avatar of Dwyana][Order of Pain][Dark Fury][Mystic Healing][Meditation][Imbue Health][Whirling Charge][Fleeting Stability]

UA (Mo/E)
[Unyeilding Aura][Divine Healing][Heavens Delight][Mend Ailment][Shield of Absorption][Prot Spirit][Aegis][Glyph of lesser energy]

HB (Mo/Me)
[Healers Boon][Dwyana's Kiss][Ethereal Light][Sig of Rejuvenation][Cure Hex][Waste not, want not][Power Drain][Arcane Mimicry]

Bomber (N/Rt)
[Jagged Bones][Sig of Lost souls][Animate Bone minions][Death Nova][Putrid Bile][Masochism][Ancestors Rage][Splinter Weapon]

Any suggestions on how to optimize this or is the idea just no good and id be better off with something else?

Thanks

Prestige · Jul 15, 2011, 03:41 PM // 15:41

I'd give up a Barrage Ranger for a Panic mesmer. Their`s more Caster-Mob control if you want my opinion by adding a Panic Mesmer. :P!

Quaker · Jul 15, 2011, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Just off-hand, I don't see the purpose in Summon Spirits in your build. You only have FW and Winnow, which have such a large area of effect there's not much need to pull them around with you. You'd be better off carrying something like Pain Inverter or Technobabble, imho.
If you are concerned about having FW up, you could replace Savage Shot on one of your R/Ps with FW.

Another off-hand thought - I'm not a big fan of minion bombing Heroes and since you have a number of rangers but no pets, I would use just a standard MM build such as:
N/Mo - DM 12+2+1, SR 10+1, HP 8 - [Animate Flesh Golem or Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Horror][Animate Shambling Horror][Deathly Swarm][Putrid Bile][Heal Area][Blood of the Master][Rez Chant]

Thought #3 - Modify the UA as:
Mo/Rt - HP 9+2+1, DF 9+1, Resto 12 - [Word of Healing][Recuperation][Rejuvenation][Signet of Rejuvenation][Healing Breeze][Spirit Light][Mend Body & Soul][Rez Chant]

Thought #4
It's best to have your healers set as "Avoid Combat" and putting Power Drain and Arcane Mimicry on your HB is asking for trouble.

Thought #5
One of your R/Ps could carry Broad Head Arrow instead of Barrage.

pakhavit · Jul 15, 2011, 03:49 PM // 15:49

I would move one of the spirit to hero and bring the 3rd pve skill, and a hard rez on rit instead of Ancestor rage because I hate rez sig.

Pugs Not Drugs · Jul 15, 2011, 04:17 PM // 16:17

on my ranger, I run either a r/a dagger spam with an enraging lunge pet or a r/w axe with enraging lunge pet depending on whether i want single target damage or aoe. my heroes are

sos/resto rit with splinter
st rit in hard areas, sogm in easy
panic mesmer
ineptitude mesmer
AotL mm with prots
Roj monk with party heals
roj monk with party heals

one of the rojs also carries soh, the other a hard rez

Outerworld · Jul 15, 2011, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Thought #3 - Modify the UA as:
Mo/Rt - HP 9+2+1, DF 9+1, Resto 12 - [Unyielding Aura][Recuperation][Rejuvenation][Signet of Rejuvenation][Signet of Devotion][Healing Breeze][Spirit Light][Mend Body & Soul]

What? Recup cost 25e with zero energy management and Healing Breeze is just plain terrible. If you want party healing on a UA bar then Divine Healing and Heaven's Delight are the better options, not costly spirits.

Quaker · Jul 15, 2011, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

What? Recup cost 25e with zero energy management and Healing Breeze is just plain terrible. If you want party healing on a UA bar then Divine Healing and Heaven's Delight are the better options, not costly spirits.

Actually, no, it's not "just plain terrible" - it works very well. But, you have to keep in mind that this is used in conjunction with a regular HB monk.
As far as energy management is concerned - given that it carries a high energy staff and uses two signets (which need no energy), plus normal energy regen, energy is not a problem.

Also, keep in mind that, at the current attribute levels, Recuperation gives a constant +3 health regen for 39 seconds with no additional energy costs. It also means that the monks need less additional healing, thereby allowing them to use smaller, less energy hungry heals.

I know that Healing Breeze is one of the skills that "leet" players like to crap on, but it does an excellent job of combating degen.

Think outside the PvXbox.

Xenomortis · Jul 15, 2011, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Healing Breeze is useful but its energy costs make it impractical for a Monk. Recuperation on a hero monk is just asking for trouble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Also, keep in mind that, at the current attribute levels, Recuperation gives a constant +3 health regen for 39 seconds with no additional energy costs. It also means that the monks need less additional healing, thereby allowing them to use smaller, less energy hungry heals.

Not really. See, damage can't really be modeled as constant pressure; in PvE you get nuked and you need something to push bars up right now. Recuperation isn't the skill you want. And ultimately, due to the nature of heroes, Recuperation might save your heroes one or two heals at best. Similarly, Healing Breeze doesn't really save your heroes an extra heal at all.

Recuperation does have uses, but they are nowhere near good enough for me to invest in when dealing with heroes.

Outerworld · Jul 15, 2011, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Actually, no, it's not "just plain terrible" - it works very well. But, you have to keep in mind that this is used in conjunction with a regular HB monk.
As far as energy management is concerned - given that it carries a high energy staff and uses two signets (which need no energy), plus normal energy regen, energy is not a problem.

Also, keep in mind that, at the current attribute levels, Recuperation gives a constant +3 health regen for 39 seconds with no additional energy costs. It also means that the monks need less additional healing, thereby allowing them to use smaller, less energy hungry heals.

I know that Healing Breeze is one of the skills that "leet" players like to crap on, but it does an excellent job of combating degen.

Think outside the PvXbox.

In the situations where I want health back I'd rather have it instantly and not over time. Your point on degen is valid but there are better skills than Healing Breeze that can be used to combat it.

Perhaps it's actually you should that think outside whatever box you're in if you think what you posted was good advice...

Wenspire · Jul 15, 2011, 10:05 PM // 22:05

If you are going to use multiple barrage rangers, your healing monk would benefit greatly with Vigorous Spirit equipped.

Belzebu · Jul 16, 2011, 04:55 AM // 04:55

If you are going as a barrager I would remove the HB monk and add a SoS Resto Rit with splinter.
Also the idea of give the spirits to your heroes are a good idea, then change your build to r/w for "Save Yourselves!"

I agree with Pugs, builds with pets are good ranger builds, barrage at HM makes the mob scatter and then it lose all its power.

Wenspire · Jul 16, 2011, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Barrage doesnt cause enemy scatter. Ignite Arrow with any multi-shot skill does though.

Maver1ck87 · Jul 16, 2011, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Actually, no, it's not "just plain terrible" - it works very well. But, you have to keep in mind that this is used in conjunction with a regular HB monk.
As far as energy management is concerned - given that it carries a high energy staff and uses two signets (which need no energy), plus normal energy regen, energy is not a problem.

Also, keep in mind that, at the current attribute levels, Recuperation gives a constant +3 health regen for 39 seconds with no additional energy costs. It also means that the monks need less additional healing, thereby allowing them to use smaller, less energy hungry heals.

I know that Healing Breeze is one of the skills that "leet" players like to crap on, but it does an excellent job of combating degen.

Think outside the PvXbox.

Sup,

just a few points...
1) don't say "think outside the pvxbox", it kinda says people don't use their brains and copy, which is kinda rude! Maybe the person had genuinely thought about his comment? Any for that....

2) the monks elite skill is UA! As well as super res that's 50% extra heals on monk skills!!! So why the hell give it ritulist heals - lol? You might be thinking outside the pve box but also outside the sanity box! Mbas an spirit light - Lol? Take patient, or healing whisper or dwaynas kiss or monk skills that benefit from UA!

3) same applies to heal breeze! It's a good skill in some situations - BUT has negative synergy with UA! Might as well take cure hex if ur worried about
degen as it not only removes some of the degen but the heal benefits from UA!

Builds are not about trying to beat Pvx or not! They are about finding synergy - your suggestions arnt on pvx but have no synergy whatsoever!

Anyway back to the build -

IMO stick pets on each ranger, maybe take a command para to handle the shouts, need splinter weapons, jagged bones minion bomber with prots Is strong and you only need 1 healer. Try this....

R/W barrage with SAve yourselves
R/Rt x2 barrage with pets
P/W commandagon
Rt SoS with splinter and recuperation
D/N orders
N/mo jagged bones with prots
Mo/E UA with heals

(on my mobile so can't upload builds)

hope that helps!

Pce

Quaker · Jul 16, 2011, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maver1ck87

2) the monks elite skill is UA! As well as super res that's 50% extra heals on monk skills!!! So why the hell give it ritulist heals - lol?

- The UA is mainly for the instant rez, not the +50%, although it does boost the 2 signets.
- there are only 2 Rit "heals" in the build. Spirit Light gives more healing than most monk heals, even with +50%. MB&S is mostly for the multiple condition removal.
- It doesn't really matter how many Monk skills you have, if the 2 you do have are enough (given recharge time, usage, etc.)

Quote:

3) same applies to heal breeze! It's a good skill in some situations - BUT has negative synergy with UA! Might as well take cure hex if ur worried about degen as it not only removes some of the degen but the heal benefits from UA!

Sorry, my mistake. I thought there were other sources of degen besides Hexes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

In the situations where I want health back I'd rather have it instantly and not over time.

It's a combination of Recuperation/Rejuvenation and "instant" heals. The regular HB monk is mostly responsible for the "instant" heals, plus the UA Mo/Rit helps with the signets. (Note that I said that the UA Mo/Rt is used with a regular HB Monk.)
Going pure "redbar" with instant heals is not a good idea.

Xenomortis · Jul 16, 2011, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

- The UA is mainly for the instant rez, not the +50%, although it does boost the 2 signets.
- there are only 2 Rit "heals" in the build. Spirit Light gives more healing than most monk heals, even with +50%. MB&S is mostly for the multiple condition removal.
- It doesn't really matter how many Monk skills you have, if the 2 you do have are enough (given recharge time, usage, etc.)

UA only boosts spells, signets and indirect healing are not affected.
The good monk heals are going to quickly beat Spirit Light, especially under UA. Remember that Monk spells get the benefit of Divine Favor whereas the Rit heals do not so your second point is largely false. MBAS is excellent condition removal however, but even so it's not generally worth putting this on a Monk when other templates can so easily take it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Sorry, my mistake. I thought there were other sources of degen besides Hexes.

Conditions aren't scary; you have MBAS after all.

Quaker · Jul 16, 2011, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

UA only boosts spells, signets and indirect healing are not affected.

You're right, I forgot about that. So, the UA is only for the instant rez. So just think of it as a rez, like if it was Rez Chant and don't get all twisted up about the +50%.

It would be better to worry about the maintenance cost, but it can be micro'd.

EDIT - that build used to have Word of Healing and Rez Chant in it instead of UA and some other skill. I did forget about UA not working with signets, so it would be best to mico-manage UA - that is disable it (shift-click) and only use it when needed to eliminate the maintenance cost.

Quote:

Conditions aren't scary; you have MBAS after all.

Make up your mind, should it have MB&S or not!

But, seriously, I find Healing Breeze to be the most misunderstood Monk skill. Too many people look upon Healing Breeze as if it was the only skill in a build. But, in reality, I find that the Heroes use HB very appropriately. I also find that the MOnk Heroes tend to use certain spells over and over again, so just giving them more skills doesn't change much.
HB can be used on all allies, including the caster. It can be used to counter degen and it can be used as just a bulk heal. It gives significant regen even at low levels of Healing Prayers.

Outerworld · Jul 16, 2011, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

You're right, I forgot about that. So, the UA is only for the instant rez. So just think of it as a rez, like if it was Rez Chant and don't get all twisted up about the +50%.

It would be better to worry about the maintenance cost, but it can be micro'd.

Make up your mind, should it have MB&S or not!

But, seriously, I find Healing Breeze to be the most misunderstood Monk skill. Too many people look upon Healing Breeze as if it was the only skill in a build. But, in reality, I find that the Heroes use HB very appropriately. I also find that the MOnk Heroes tend to use certain spells over and over again, so just giving them more skills doesn't change much.
HB can be used on all allies, including the caster. It can be used to counter degen and it can be used as just a bulk heal. It gives significant regen even at low levels of Healing Prayers.

Removing the source of the degen is much more efficient; conditions are damn easy to remove and hexes are only troublesome when alot of them are stacked, something you only really see in places such as DoA or Slavers and though expensive Convert Hexes cuts right through them. Healing Breeze is not misunderstood at all, it's a 10e skill on a 2s recharge and probably more of a drain on energy than something actually useful.

Lanier · Jul 16, 2011, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

You're right, I forgot about that. So, the UA is only for the instant rez. So just think of it as a rez, like if it was Rez Chant and don't get all twisted up about the +50%.

It would be better to worry about the maintenance cost, but it can be micro'd.

UA is an awful skill, and this is why. Its secondary effect is completely overshadowed by HB, and isn't worth the large drop in energy management anyway from the -1 pip. Thus, its only use is as a rez skill. One of the most fundamental lessons of a monk is NOT bringing a ressurection skill. Parties should only need a couple of them anyway (how many times do your party members die anyway? if its fairly often, then you need to rethink your entire team build), and the monk should focus on keeping the party from dieing, not from ressurecting dead allies (which should be prevented in the first place). Ressurections should never be brought on a monk, PARTICULARLY WHEN THEY TAKE UP YOUR ELITE SPOT. Use something useful like a removal/healing elite on a prot monk or healers boon/WoH/healers burst on a heal monk.

UA is the perfect example of why popular doesn't always equal good. It is really annoying to see people continually trying to convince themselves that an instant-rez elite skill on a backliner is a good thing.

Quaker · Jul 16, 2011, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

Removing the source of the degen is much more efficient; conditions are damn easy to remove and hexes are only troublesome when of them are stacked, something you only really see in places such as DoA or Slavers and though expensive Convert Hexes cuts right through them.

My HB monk has Cure Hex and Mend Ailment and the UA has MB&S - Breeze is not the only degen counter, nor is it only for degen countering, nor is it the only heal skill in the bars.

Quote:

Healing Breeze is not misunderstood at all, it's a 10e skill on a 2s recharge and probably more of a drain on energy than something actually useful.

If you think that 10e is too much for 15 seconds of +8 health regen, you certainly do misunderstand it.

@Lanier - BS! If you were to actually monitor what your heroes are doing, you'd see that they don't just randomly rez people. Actually, they do a very good job of only rezzing when they have the time and energy to do it safely.
Also, except for a few specific builds, there is no advantage to loading up a whole bunch of skills in your Hero's bars. Again, if you observe them in practice, particularly the monks, you'd see that they primarily use only 4 or 5 main skills - so they usually have room for a rez, unless you micro-manage them.

P.S. Keep in mind that we're talking Heroes in PvE here. Many players carry over a lot of unnecessary stuff from PvP.

Outerworld · Jul 16, 2011, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

If you think that 10e is too much for 15 seconds of +8 health regen, you certainly do misunderstand it.

Considering +8 regen isn't that impressive at all, then yes I do think 10e is too much and please...don't reply with something like "but 8 regen over 15 seconds is 240 health!" for it doesn't actually mean anything.

@Lanier; it's not just that UA resses a party member, it's that it resses a party member at both full health and energy, no other res does that except DPS at a high resto spec. Now granted it would be better to not die at all, but Heroes aren't perfect so it's nice to know that when someone does happen to die that they can be brought back instantly to stop the situation for escalating.