Curse

XxForgexX · May 07, 2011, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Reminds me of the old ak47 vs ar15 "argument"

except this build is neither an AK-47 nor an AR-15. it's a plastic knife

LexTalionis · May 07, 2011, 05:17 PM // 17:17

*sigh* I guess I'd better explain more thoroughly.

We can't debate because we can't establish a common agreement since to my perspective, you are denying the antecedent.

In simple logic, a valid argumental modus tollens is like this:

If a build is fast, then it is good.
This build is not good.
Therefore, it is not fast.

This argument is VALID logically.

Denying the antecedent is an invalid form of logic which runs like this:

If a build is fast, then it is good.
This build is not fast.
Therefore, it is not good. (What???)

I could illustrate the fallacy using a Venn Diagram, but here's an easier to understand example:

If an animal is a dog, it is a mammal.
This animal (a cat) is not a dog.
Therefore it is not a mammal. (What???)

or

Your sister is a woman.
Your mother is not your sister.
Therefore, your mother is not a woman. (Huh?)

See why I can't accept your arguments?

For us to even begin to debate, we need to establish a common modus ponens. Your proposition is "If a build is good, it is fast". I cannot accept that because I believe that good is NOT a subset of fast nor equivalent to fast. I believe that there are good builds that are NOT fast (example: Spiritway). It's like saying "If a person is stupid, he eats razor blades" (It should be the other way around!).

Since I cannot agree with you on this statement, we cannot debate.

Jeydra · May 08, 2011, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Are you seriously calling Spiritway "not fast" ... back in the H/H era Spiritway overpowered every other H/H build for casters out there. How can you call that "not fast"?

I stand by the proposition "if a build is good, then it is fast".

And lol @ some people still throwing criticism but not posting evidence to back up that criticism. If this build really is a plastic knife, it would be so easy to beat it. Why not just do it then, or hold your peace forever?

Also @ some people thinking this build has a 75% reliability (or something) - that is a misconception, plain and simple. My failure rate with the builds I'm used to using are very low in general, essentially zero in areas where I can afford to wipe a couple of times (e.g. Vloxen's HM), and I run what people would call "glass cannon" builds too. I have little doubt EFGJack's failure rate with this build is similar to mine. Like the idea that heroes don't recast spirits and therefore spiritway is slow, a 75% success rate is simply an illusion.

Wenspire · May 08, 2011, 03:22 AM // 03:22

There is going to be a higher amount of failure rate to that build when there is no tactics involved in using it (flagging, body blocking, etc). Obviously, if the person is going to do those things, the failure rate drops but so does the speed.

Jeydra · May 08, 2011, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Look at the amount of AoE in the build and then tell me that proper aggro will somehow result in a slower speed ...

LexTalionis · May 08, 2011, 04:32 AM // 04:32

@Jeydra :

Hmm. I've played Spiritway too, but you know, I might be completely spoiled by the speed of AoE Mesway (Since I'm a Mesmer, I've always had 3 Mesmers). Spiritway takes much longer to clean packs like that dual margonite pull than EFGJack's video because AoE is better than single target damage and the SoGM ritualist usually has a bunch of spirits on cooldown at the start of every battle (unless you wait). Not just that, but the Hero AI is very bad at using SoGM (and spirits don't always listen to target calling).

Heck, even running around with modifications of my ridiculously defensive Dwaynaway usually clears stuff faster than Spiritway. But Spiritway is safe in nearly all areas, its single target damage once all the spirits are out is top-notch and it is very difficult to counter.

Fast is a relative term. I'm not going to argue further about whether Spiritway is fast or not because arguing about relative terms is silly. So if you're willing to say that Spiritway is fast, let's accept that and I'll propose the following logic chain occurs:

1) There can be no bad and fast builds. (If there are bad and fast builds and good and fast builds, being fast has no influence on goodness nor badness and is irrelevant to the discussion.)

2) EFGJack's build is fast (Evidence: video shows his double pull which is faster at killing that dual Margonite pack than Spiritway).

3) Therefore, EFGJack's build is not bad.

Note that you haven't proved that it's good (because fast isn't the same as good unless fast is completely and utterly equivalent to good), but you've shown that it's definitely not bad.

To prove it's good - well, you could propose that good/bad is a digital state and not analog, then something can only be good or bad and there is no in-between, so if his build is not bad, you know it must be good. People don't have to accept this digital state modus ponens (they may believe that a build can be neither good nor bad), but it's just an example of one way of going about it with logic.

Another simpler way is to submit this statement (as you just did): All fast builds are good. Now there can be no such thing as a bad and fast build, no matter how fragile it is or difficult it is to play. This doesn't mean that fast == good, but we can show that if a build is fast, it must be good. The problem is that you're going to have to get people to agree on this statement and if they don't, you'll have conflict.

edit: Upon reflection, that's probably the issue right now. For people to argue against your theory, they need to propose the possibility of a build being fast, yet not good (which they are doing now by raising the possibility of a build being difficult to play and fragile - which makes it bad to them - even though it is fast). If you can't accept this supposition, both of you will never be able to debate the issue meaningfully because both of you have no common agreement. (you can have a wonderful and heated row though)

timbo_3101 · May 08, 2011, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Times for quest completion are objective, are quantifiable, and are reproducible. They are an excellent measure or surrogate measure for comparing two competing builds, limitations aside.

So why won't anyone dare to challenge Jeydra or EFGJack to a time trial in this open forum, other than providing subjective comments and criticism which are unsubstantiated?

Wenspire · May 08, 2011, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Yes, there is definitely plenty of killing power in the build. That isn't being disputed. But obviously, if tactics aren't used with it, it's effectiveness drops. Even the OP mentions flagging. The fact that someone tried the build setup and wiped numerous times with it (without microing anything) should tell you how unstable it is when used that way. And when you have to micro, speed drops compared to not having to deal with doing that.

Any area that allows you to potentially skip groups to complete are terrible areas to test with. If it just came down to speed, SC builds would reign supreme.

EFGJack · May 08, 2011, 06:45 AM // 06:45

@Timbo - running one specific zone several times a day just to cut off some odd seconds isn't exactly fun, this is why you don't see anyone drawing their pistols.

Anyway, this build is what I came up with after experimenting with just how little defense I can get away with. I'm sure I can drop some spirits on the ST but it's not exactly important. I actually have a very friendly build that can clear anything thrown at it with only minor modifications but I published this one just to get opinions about this approach as it's really uncommon. And I thank everyone involved in this discussion ;>

My 2cents on the subject - one gets horrible results with this build if he tries to use this build as a c+space build or lacks the patience to execute proper pulls every single time, but if you rather put up effort in it, it's really great in the zones it can take on. And this doesn't mean it's very limited, as I cleared all five zones in Slaver's HM with this build. Only modifications I did was Rift -> Kaolai and Sigs of Rejuvenation changed to Soil & EOE. It's not the best build for Slavers' though. some builds are more mobile so they gain a lot by being able to move faster even if the build kills slower. Hm.

@Wenspire - if one has experience with micro it doesn't slow you down as it's reflex-like. You don't even know you're doing it

Daesu · May 08, 2011, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

@Wenspire - if one has experience with micro it doesn't slow you down as it's reflex-like. You don't even know you're doing it

I agree, if you are familiar with the build and your keys configuration, you can clear faster because you are more efficient. That takes practice though and I don't expect most people to have the patience to go through that. I think there is a place for builds that clear fast but demands you to micro and be attentive. This makes the game more challenging and interesting to play.

However I believe there is also a place for builds that may not clear as fast, but are safer and have a higher chance of your survival character staying alive even through a disconnect or lag. If I am building a survival character I would go for such a build simply because it is so frustrating if your survival character dies due to lag/disconnect that you can't do anything about. The meta builds like BDSM or whatever pvx meta consist of, belong to this category.

This is why I think this build would probably not end up being pvx meta, as it is, because it caters for a different set of needs. If one tries to "sell" this build as pvx meta, there would be lots of flames along the way.

Both kinds of build have their uses. It is up to individual players as to what they want to get out of them.

LexTalionis · May 08, 2011, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by timbo_3101

Times for quest completion are objective, are quantifiable, and are reproducible. They are an excellent measure or surrogate measure for comparing two competing builds, limitations aside.

So why won't anyone dare to challenge Jeydra or EFGJack to a time trial in this open forum, other than providing subjective comments and criticism which are unsubstantiated?

That's a flawed line of reasoning. Here's an example:

Person X and Person Y and Person Z have different play-styles and latency. If person X achieves 8 minutes with build 1 and 10 minutes with build 2, and person Y achieves 12 minutes with build 1 and 11 minutes with build 2, and person Z wipes completely with build 1 because he doesn't have a right hand and can't micromanage with a mouse without moving it with his lips, but can clear the area with build 2 after 7 minutes because he got lucky and skipped 2 spawns entirely what does this tell us?

Oh, let's not forget Person A who hates the creator of Build #1 so he purposely sat back and twiddled his thumbs for 10 minutes before starting the run of Build #1.

Ultimately, it's usually easier just to sum up all builds with "YMMV". Try it, if you don't like it, leave it.

hunter · May 08, 2011, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

@Timbo - running one specific zone several times a day just to cut off some odd seconds isn't exactly fun, this is why you don't see anyone drawing their pistols.

Anyway, this build is what I came up with after experimenting with just how little defense I can get away with. I'm sure I can drop some spirits on the ST but it's not exactly important. I actually have a very friendly build that can clear anything thrown at it with only minor modifications but I published this one just to get opinions about this approach as it's really uncommon. And I thank everyone involved in this discussion ;>

My 2cents on the subject - one gets horrible results with this build if he tries to use this build as a c+space build or lacks the patience to execute proper pulls every single time, but if you rather put up effort in it, it's really great in the zones it can take on. And this doesn't mean it's very limited, as I cleared all five zones in Slaver's HM with this build. Only modifications I did was Rift -> Kaolai and Sigs of Rejuvenation changed to Soil & EOE. It's not the best build for Slavers' though. some builds are more mobile so they gain a lot by being able to move faster even if the build kills slower. Hm.

@Wenspire - if one has experience with micro it doesn't slow you down as it's reflex-like. You don't even know you're doing it

The idea is that Microing/flagging heroes slows you down and is not practical for general PVE.

Its a necessity for high end areas like say DoA and maybe some pulls in slavers but having to micro every single pull for a general vanquish...RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO that. Most people won't have the patience to.

In fact i can guarantee you 99% of the people on this forum won't run this build simply because of the extra haste involved. They might try it but the extra effort but when you can get similar results with a C-space build is not worth it.

You can go ahead and claim that "experienced" players do flagging on reflex but most people with me included will disagree. Most people here didn't bother flagging since the 3H Discord/Sabway era because they simply didn't need to. What makes you think they will start doing so now.

And again, in the time it takes you to set up the pull, i would have already killed 2 mobs and moved on the next one.

Again the build is not bad, its just not practical for the general mindless PVE.

PS: its generally a good idea to look at a posters "join date" on the forums before labeling them as "inexperienced"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Look at the amount of AoE in the build and then tell me that proper aggro will somehow result in a slower speed ...

Setting up pulls results in slower speed.

Getting spawns on top of your backline --> 1 dead hero also slows down your speed.

C-space builds don't kill as fast but they also have their own fair share of AoE

And are you honestly telling me 2 elites on a 20s coodown are going to add to your "AoE" when in fact splinter can do close to 10 times as much dmg in the meantime?

if we had dmg meters in this game, it would be so much easier to talk about this but as a rule of thumb, on 100b warrior setups most dmg comes from

Splinter (which is much more forgiving).MoP (when balled), mesmer stuff

Assuming C-space scenarios its Splinter >>>>> MoP

FoC doesn't even come close to these 2 abilities, so hence why i think the FoC is mainly there for the fallback chains tbh

EFGJack · May 08, 2011, 09:17 AM // 09:17

@Hunter - Response in words you understand better than a proper reply:

>implying cooldowns won't run while you move from group 1 to group 2
>implying the monsters survive the initial brunt
>implying setting up pulls takes time
>implying advanced players gets spawns on top of his backline
>implying absence of Splinter Weapon

Please.

Edit: Yes. FOC is there for the fall back chain. There's not many options available if one wishes for Fall Back & Mark of Pain + random added AOE.

Gabs88 · May 08, 2011, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Just pulling random numbers out of my arse to illustrate a point here.

Margonite HP 1200
This builds AoE damage - 1500
Another random builds AoE damage - 1000

Now, in this scenario. This build has enough damage to cleanly spike down the HM margonites. While the other build doesn't. So VS a group of balled up foes this build will be significantly faster.

Add LB title though.
This builds AoE damage - 2100
Another random builds AoE damage - 1400.

In the second case, both builds have enough damage to cleanly spike down the margonites. But the other random build's amount of AoE damage is attainable while still having a full set of minions + a full set of damage spirits.

So what I'm saying is that if you add more AoE damage then you need, even while balling up the foes properly. You will have diminishing returns in the effect that AoE damage has on the speed of the build. And this build being able to do something without an LB title that another build can't do without the LB title means very little.

EFGJack · May 08, 2011, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Totally agree with that Gabs, but I don't see how DOA is relevant to the discussion with this specific build as I mentioned this is not a build for DOA, and the video posted here was something I recorded for Jeydra's curiosity and decided to post it here for reasons I can't quite understand.

Gabs88 · May 08, 2011, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Ah, okey. In that case it was still kinda impressive ^^

timbo_3101 · May 08, 2011, 10:33 AM // 10:33

@LexTalionis
No one has ever mentioned a single individual running multiple builds and using this as a means of comparing teams/tactics; in any case, this would be subject to interindividual variation. Perhaps you are unaware, but it has been suggested multiple times that a single individual run his or her preferred build and post times for quest completion, to be used for comparison against other individuals running alternate builds.
Regarding your peronsal criticisms and statements regarding spiritway - perhaps you yourself would like to compare to Jeydra's publicised results

"Most people here didn't bother flagging since the 3H Discord/Sabway era because they simply didn't need to."
@Hunter
Most people, perhaps yourself included, reject micromanagement whether out of inconvenience or lack of ability. Is it possible that this could have contributed to why most people, even going back to the H/H era, were unable to H/H through every area/dungeon in HM (except DoA and UW) without consumables? Are these the same players and the same results you strive for?

@EFGJack
Have briefly trialed your build in general HM using an assassin. Impressive efficiency, but am more comfortable with pre-prots and AP spiking. Perhaps appropriately re-runing my heroes might allow me to test it somewhere more exciting

In any case, my previous comment was a rhetoric question. Most people know why no one will and no one can legitimately challenge Jeydra or EFGJack.

LexTalionis · May 08, 2011, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by timbo_3101

@LexTalionis
No one has ever mentioned a single individual running multiple builds and using this as a means of comparing teams/tactics; in any case, this would be subject to interindividual variation. Perhaps you are unaware, but it has been suggested multiple times that a single individual run his or her preferred build and post times for quest completion, to be used for comparison against other individuals running alternate builds.
Regarding your peronsal criticisms and statements regarding spiritway - perhaps you yourself would like to compare to Jeydra's publicised results

"Most people here didn't bother flagging since the 3H Discord/Sabway era because they simply didn't need to."

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Read it again and pay particular attention to what I said about Person A, you know, the one that wouldn't mind falsifying results just to make the build creator look bad. There's more to it than just that, but I'm just simplifying the argument for why using clear times is a bad metric for you.

Are you suggesting that they record their entire runs? That's going to open a whole new can of worms, not the least of would be finding someone completely objective (Ha!) who actually cares enough about the size of your internet phallus to watch through several videos of essentially the same thing.

Gabs88 · May 08, 2011, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by timbo_3101

In any case, my previous comment was a rhetoric question. Most people know why no one will and no one can legitimately challenge Jeydra or EFGJack.

Mostly because they have their own weird kind of hobbies that they specialize in. While DoA HM and UW HM without cons is impressive for sure, the reality is that the ability to clear these dungeons is completely irrelevant to the larger scheme of things. Especially without the use of cons.

Most of the people considering to Heroway DoA \ UW \ FoW \ Sorrows \ Deep \ Urgoz do it only for HoM statue anyhow. They only do it once, and for that. NM is enough anyhow.

And the ability to clear DoA HM with a build doesn't necessarily speak of the builds ability to efficiently perform in general PVE. Aka EOTN Dungeons, Missions and Vanquishes.

Though, I spent a ton of time trying to figure the perfect build and I can't say I was unaffected by EFGJack's Tank and spank video, most certainly helped twist my head in the right direction. But I also think the RoJ heroway build posted on GWPVX (which is very similar to what I came up with myself after spending ages in the think tank) is one of the best builds in the game because of it's ability to combine an efficient spike, single target DPS and general utility through heavy hex and condition removal. And I have no doubt that is going to serve 99% of the melee players in this game better then this build.

Mostly because it combines cspacing with the ability to spike balls in a very good way. ~~~~

EFGJack · May 08, 2011, 02:02 PM // 14:02

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_RoJ_Heroway this is the one you speak of? Looks surprisingly familiar to my pre-7H build posted here - http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10434178.html

Anyway, I guess it's time I reveal my grand scheme (which I already did reveal a few posts back, but nevermind): This build I posted only to get opinions and reactions to this kind of approach to general PvE.