Curse

EFGJack · May 05, 2011, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

I can see this whole debate from both sides. It's merely a "glass canon, yay or nay" issue.

It's like asking: should you wear heavy armor into a medieval battlefield? Common sense says yes, but if you're insanely skilled you may argue otherwise. Just don't expect everyone to follow your example. They may gawk and say "wow you're good", but don't get all angry and superior when they say "no thanks, I won't fight like you do. It's kinda weird that you suggested that I do in the first place".

Personally I think glass canon builds are far from optimal in general PvE. The damage is exceptional, but overkill. You might or might not shave off a couple minutes off the VQ, but the extra risk and effort are not worth it. In the very competitive GW build market, if your return on investment is bad, your product will not be popular. Of course, I have little reason to doubt that in the right hands, it's an excellent build for the hardest parts of GW

For an even further opinion of things, read Cthon's About Backlines.

I understand people often search for the easiest way out. I like it easy too, but after clearing UW HM I decided to explore the high reward / high risk setups a bit further as I was sick tired of running max defense to get through UW and I quickly learned you can get away with minimal heals as long as your damage is top notch. The point of this setup is that you can kill the enemy groups before the redbars cry for protection and nourishment. And to be honest, this approach is satisfying after playing the same old setups time and time again.
Cheers for linking that thread, but I'm confident I know how different backlines affect the groups' performance and surviving capabilities without reading it.

XxForgexX · May 05, 2011, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

I can see this whole debate from both sides. It's merely a "glass canon, yay or nay" issue.

wait, what? a glass cannon sacrifices defense in favor of overwhelming damage. this build may have terrible defense, but its damage potential is average at best. even less so if you don't get a perfect aggro ball

AndrewSX · May 05, 2011, 07:42 PM // 19:42

The equation "Damage > Defence : kill stuff faster they can kill you!" works only till a certain point. When your attacks chains/spells fall in Cooldown w/o take out at least most of enemies (this happens rarely, but w/e), you won't last long w/o strong prots/heals. Maybe is just my idea of play, but "Don't get killed > kill stuff at SC's-lke speed":its safer and more stable.

Obviously this till you balance correctly the amount of those defence vs. overall damage.....

Klocknov · May 05, 2011, 10:03 PM // 22:03

You know ego warms generally never end good...

But to start off I am going to point out that this build may be glassy, but it really isn't a cannon. I run glass cannon builds all the time. My general res count between my 7h and me is two one being myself with rebirth. As well I don't stick with your average day builds, as well I build stuff that works in six and eight mans.

Now taking all that in, this build is shit, I run a Monk as a warrior half the time and you know what I couldn't even stand to touch this build since it depends way to much on flagging and microing. Yeah I may not be running your oh so loved warrior or derv, but still if this is a general PvE build should any class be able to pick it up and use it with the warrior skills?

The area I worked out in was my loved area of Riven Earth for testing builds. I wiped twice on the Raptors in there. That is even with knowing the pathing. So you want to tell me this is general PvE yet it runs problems with Raptors? Though with how you are with ego I expect to be blamed for running this build on a Monk instead of a Warrior or Dervish, well if your lackeys don't beat you to it.

Now as of the moment I am running CoS rits instead of the oh so annoying SoS and Soul Twister. As well as I run two mesmers one yes with panic my other though I went a different route other then ene surge. I went with an Illusion msemser instead. I found the Dom and illusion complemented eachother quite well. Then I have three rainbow necros so to say. So you want to say yours is a glass cannon, I want to know where the cannon is for even with good pulling one left over raptor can kill three heroes and myself easily. Yet my build clears the area in about 40 minutes most of the time running. So I may take your idea of running with "Fall Back" but past that I think this is far from being a standard PvE build, not to mention one I would choose to run over anything else.

EDIT: I did get directed to this to try it out for my opinion, and only reason I say ego wars is because that is mostly what I see over the past few pages. Now I understand your good and have been around and did many high-end stuff. But that doesn't make it to where your word is final. Now I won't continue past this if all I get is egotistical fights back. But if you generally want to work out ways to make this build more general PvE I may be able to help.

EFGJack · May 05, 2011, 10:59 PM // 22:59

I'm not going to change the build as it's something I've been running for a few weeks now with great success rate in general areas. Obviously if there's an area that the build can't tackle I simply won't run it there. I wish people will see this as something you can run in zones X and Y even if it can't make it in zone Z.

And please refrain from posting that the build is shit simply due to the fact that it indeed requires a certain play style. I acknowledge people aren't friendly towards builds that require flagging and micro, but that's where the fun is for me, and I've had a great deal of fun the last weeks running this build, knowing you'll explode if you play bad, but proper play rewards swift kills that "normal" builds can only dream of. Final word is, to me it is but a standard pve build, and by general game-play I refer to stuff I do when I feel like it: EOTN dungeons, and select ZBounties.

And I'm crafty with builds and strategies revolving around using them, thanks for the offer but I'll have to pass. I'm content this build has what it takes in the right hands.

Silverdawn · May 05, 2011, 11:59 PM // 23:59

I have no doubt EFGJack is an excellent player who has a record of producing good builds. However, we are talking about a specific build here, not his reputation. A build based around echo mending would still be a bad build, regardless of who made it. Likewise, good builds can come from unknown players. The discussion of the build's merits should be just that, and should not include the renown of the player.

It seems to me that builds that can handle things going wrong, react to any situation with much less flagging and can run anything in the #1 character slot are better/stronger builds than one that requires a skilled player playing a certain profession/build to function, but only in certain areas against certain foes (provided nothing goes wrong). Of course, some players might be bored with c-spacing through the game with a single 7h build that's good in all circumstances and might prefer to live on the edge with a weaker build. That's fine, such a build should not be toted as a strong, general PvE build.

@Majoho: XxForgexX is actually saying something consistent there. In your #2 quote, he's saying that if a build can't destroy everything in it's path, it sucks. In the #1 quote, he's challenging the OP, asking if it meets the criteria for a good build and then answering that it doesn't.

@timbo 3101: There was only 1 death in hunter's team. This matched EFGJack's video, whose team also suffered a single death.

Jeydra · May 06, 2011, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Simple solution to "this build sucks" argument ... have all parties involved clear an area with their favoured builds and post the /age. If anyone is convinced this build sucks, he / she should be able to do better: if this build doesn't have enough offense, it should kill slower; if this build doesn't have enough defense / cannot handle popups etc, it should wipe more. In both cases the result will be an increase in time taken. What this test will not show is if bad players fail with the build but not good players, when I firmly believe it's the fault of the bad player(s) (who should get better), not the fault of the build.

So to all people who think this build is bad, why not list a concrete area to test the build against?

Klocknov · May 06, 2011, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Simple solution to "this build sucks" argument ... have all parties involved clear an area with their favoured builds and post the /age. If anyone is convinced this build sucks, he / she should be able to do better: if this build doesn't have enough offense, it should kill slower; if this build doesn't have enough defense / cannot handle popups etc, it should wipe more. In both cases the result will be an increase in time taken. What this test will not show is if bad players fail with the build but not good players, when I firmly believe it's the fault of the bad player(s) (who should get better), not the fault of the build.

So to all people who think this build is bad, why not list a concrete area to test the build against?

Last I checked Riven Earth was a very concrete area for testing builds. As well I know many people that do their build testing between their or Magus Stones. Past that I have nothing else to say.

Wenspire · May 06, 2011, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Perfect timing; Duncan is tomorrows ZB. =)

Daesu · May 06, 2011, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxForgexX

but what happens when you don't get perfect aggro? or when popups appear out of nowhere? or when another group comes up at you from behind? or when any other number of other random bad things happen, how does your build fare then?

Then that is your fault. Your warrior is not advanced enough.

Obviously there is still a demand for non-advanced builds. We can't all be advanced warriors now, can we? If we are then who is going to be an average warrior, but if there is no average warrior then the word "advanced" warrior would lose its meaning. Plus the fact that the new survival update causes many people to go for more defensive builds.

It is ok to choose another build that would suit your play style better, as long as we keep the flames at bay on this thread.

Chthon · May 06, 2011, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

This is quite an original build. If it is someone else besides EFGJack who posted this, I would expect this build to be SHOT DOWN. Comon, admit it.

True enough. This thing is such a glass cannon that I'm sure it would have received even more criticism had it not come from Jack. Now, I personally do not favor this sort of build (mostly because I lack the long-term concentration/patience to do every single pull right), but if it works, then it works. On what grounds then could I legitimately criticize?

The only criticism I'm hearing that rings true is that it's not robust. (Which Jack freely admits.) The deeper question is whether robustness is a necessary component of the mythical "optimal build" (as opposed to speed alone). We had this discussion (or rather its flip side) back in the BDSM thread, and it just went in circles. I don't expect to get any further this time around.

Nonsense removed

EFGJack · May 06, 2011, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Right. I recorded the City video only because we were discussing it with Jeydra, then I decided to post a link to the video clip here just to demonstrate you can get far with Signets of Rejuvenation (And a Soul Twisting ritualist, but lets not go in to details...). And do note Hunter displays LB title which I did not, but I'm well aware one can double pull in DOA and get away with it with a variety of builds as it's not as hard as people believe it is.
And about Riven Earth SCs - I rather not get involved as vanquishing has never been on the top of my list of interests.

HigherMinion · May 06, 2011, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

And about Riven Earth SCs - I rather not get involved as vanquishing has never been on the top of my list of interests.

Duncan sounds like a good idea if it's going to be today's ZB. Everyone get going on Slaver's!

@build; concerning people's worry of lack of heals, remember this: 100b/WWA doesn't just synergise with Mark of Pain, but also Blood Bond.

EFGJack · May 06, 2011, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Duncan is a good area, but this build is not for Slavers as noted in the original post. :> I know without going that this build can't take on Slaver's, mainly due to Duncan's Defenses.

Calista Blackblood · May 06, 2011, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Good idea time: Direct your criticism's at the build,not the poster. There are too many variables when you go down the route of deciding how bad people are,it just ends up embarrassing.

Anymore off topic drivel,trolling or comments directly at other posters will result in infractions and thread closure.

Take this as your warning..

AndrewSX · May 06, 2011, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Testing builds...i remember the thread where ppl tried to test personal builds vs. the famous D+S+M. Ended up to pointless speed race in Raisu palace HM....do as you prefer, but speed in HM High pve areas shouldn't be top parameter for rate a build imo.

P.S: Thanks god a mod comes here to warn. This thread was derailing a bit too much.

FoxBat · May 06, 2011, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Funnily enough, this build's potential is wasted in Raisu, as you have 4 NPCs chained to you when you're ahead of the party trying to ball stuff. The times as a result didn't turn out so well, even when grabbing large groups, you really need foes in adjacent range to cause explosion. This is something to consider when running missions as a lot of them (particularly factions) saddle you with dumb NPCs stealing your aggro.

Whirl E Vic · May 06, 2011, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Clearly the most appropriate test would be to see if the build can kill in:

Talus Chute
Verdant Cascades
and possibly
The Falls

Xenomortis · May 06, 2011, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whirl E Vic

Clearly the most appropriate test would be to see if the build can kill in:

Talus Chute
Verdant Cascades
and possibly
The Falls

I don't think it's going to have a problem.

Wenspire · May 06, 2011, 07:37 PM // 19:37

If not on Duncan himself, maybe do testing on the pre-bosses if you have not completed those yet. duncan himself is more of a special situation that, usually, will require most team builds to utilize at least Swap and in some cases the Sig of Sorrow trick. Getting to him is a good test though.