Curse

thetwistedboy · May 05, 2011, 01:37 AM // 01:37

This is funny because I made this as theorycraft a while ago but trashed it because I thought there was too little healing... I never thought of putting of heals on the mesmers though... HMMMM. I guess I'll just go back to using this because I'm retarded...

Chthon · May 05, 2011, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If a build can survive a double pull in City HM with LB title down and suffer only one death, I would be extremely surprised if it fails four times in Morostav Trail HM.

To be fair, an overaggro of Sunreach+Mistwarden+random forest creatures in Morostav is a lot more dangerous than 2 of the non-boss mobs from City.

-------

All in all, I think this build is basically the 7H equivalent of Jack's old H+H build -- amazing results if and only if you're willing/able to put in the tanking/balling/aggro-holding effort.

Daesu · May 05, 2011, 05:12 AM // 05:12

This is quite an original build. If it is someone else besides EFGJack who posted this, I would expect this build to be SHOT DOWN. Comon, admit it.

It doesn't have the usual elements we would expect from a warrior HM general PvE build:

1. No SY from a warrior player
2. No SoH for a melee?
3. Spiritual Pain on the mesmers instead of CoF. Wasn't it Jeydra who said Spiritual Pain is too weak on another thread?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Spiritual Pain is pretty weak. 79 single-target damage every 5s is just too low - Discord does 115 single-target damage every 2s and it's already pretty weak. It kills spirits, but if you want to do that it's better simply to use Gaze of Fury on one of the Rits. Killing minions? I'd much rather focus down the MM. You got the spike damage and you have the enchantment removal to bypass prots.

4. Channeling rit using 10e Clamor of Souls for non-armor ignoring Lightning damage + energy returned, instead of your ever-loving SoS?
5. A Ravenous Gaze blood necro with Barbed Signet instead of Orders? Really, Bleeding?
6. No MM and no other offensive spirits besides Bloodsong
7. 15e, 2s cast FoC on curses?
8. Signet of Rejuvenation with only 6 to healing prayers?

Well, at least he has a MoP with his 100blades. Comparing this against the current general PvE meta for warriors, I would chance to say that it has far fewer prots and is therefore, less forgiving.

I am not even going to say that it doesn't work (I remain neutral to this) since I have not tried it yet. But I can certainly understand the skepticism.

On the flagging issue, to be fair, there was a hint that we don't even need to flag to get good results:

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

How to play
You don't need any micro other than flagging heroes behind while aggroing foes to have 'em somewhat close to eachother. Although my test subjects reported good results even without flagging heroes. I suggest pre-casting spirits on the ST for greater survivability.

But I will make sure to flag my heroes before trying this build.

AndrewSX · May 05, 2011, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

This is quite an original build. If it is someone else besides EFGJack who posted this, I would expect this build to be SHOT DOWN. Comon, admit it.

He-he, i've had the same tought.

This is just the ultimate proof that good players which creates their own builds can steamroll PvE even better than the "OMG use meta builds n00b!" ppl.

Most points above are right tho (SY is soooo good...), but i'm sure that using this correctly will give excellent results anyway (don't have a war to try it myself tho...

). Don't know if trowing in the most commonly used hero skills (read above) would improve the effectiveness.

P.S: it's since the 7H update that i'm trying to stick a Clamor build instead of SoS somewhere... must denititely try your.

EFGJack · May 05, 2011, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Okay I falsely marketed this build to the general public. Something made me think that after 56 months most people would have hero flags bound somewhere. I'm changing the title so it does not misdirect discord users into this thread. About flagging - the only flagging you really need to do is flag your heroes half an aggro circle away before running into a group. it doesn't slow you down instead it speeds it up now that everything is in a ball.

@Daesu:
1. SY is good, but only when you need it.
2. SOH is often too good to pass on, but you can't fit it in.
3. It's an energy issue. 5e > 10e, + CoF is conditional and can miss more than half the time.
4. The build (when played properly) kills fast and leaves the spirits out of range most of the time
5. You can replace BSig with X spell from blood line. I know. :>
6. BDSM that way --->
8. it's sufficient

marnick · May 05, 2011, 12:01 PM // 12:01

I made a 7hero build that absolutely steamrolls every non-elite HM area by doing nothing more than c-space. Required player profession: any/any. Required skills: empty bar, just afk while your heroes kill stuff. Speed: High! I can vanquish every area in the game at record speed with my build.

So why on earth would I use this bar? Anyone with half a brain can see that your build is simply subpar. Not because it\'s not speedy or anything, but because it requires excessive micro that is beyond what most people are willing to put into it.

I have bound my flags to a razer naga mouse, which means I can flag VERY quickly. However quick is still slower than no flagging at all. I only flag on aoe bosses, and even then I usually ball up to exploit pain inverter so it\'s a non-issue 9 times in 10.

And the problem isn\'t even your build, as good or bad as it may be. EFGJack, you\'re just too arrogant to accept any criticism. I\'m equally skilled in pve as you are if not more, so why is your opinion more valid than mine? Maybe because you have 4000 posts? OMG I\'m so impressed.

Jeydra · May 05, 2011, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

To be fair, an overaggro of Sunreach+Mistwarden+random forest creatures in Morostav is a lot more dangerous than 2 of the non-boss mobs from City.

I tried five times, using E/A AP Air with Finish Him, AotL, FoC, SoS, SoGM, 2x Invoke, variable.

First time: used Dwayna Derv, aggro'ed both Falaharn's and Sunreach's groups together (Falaharn aggro'ed first). 4 heroes died, including both hard ressers, but all the monsters that aggro'ed on me died too.

Second time: used UA monk, aggro'ed Falaharn first, Sunreach didn't aggro. Needless to say no deaths.

Third time: used UA monk, suicidal run through the previous Warden spawns that were sure to aggro, got mobbed by about 6 groups at the same time front and back, successfully managed to wipe.

Fourth time: used UA monk, aggro'ed Sunreach first, Falaharn didn't popup. Needless to say no deaths.

Fifth time: used UA monk, aggro'ed Falaharn first, suicidally ran through the sea of red dots to Longbow poke Sunreach, fought about 3 groups at the same time, one death. Micro count: heroes flagged apart, one Prot Spirit on myself during my Longbow pull.

I'm not convinced Morostav Trail overaggro is harder than City HM double pull. In fact I'm quite convinced it's the other way around.

PS: yeah my build sucked. Considering the number of mobs balled into adjacent AoE, I've little doubt ESurge would've beaten Invoke Eles flat.

@marnick, you realize that EFGJack is one of the best 7H users around, having posted multiple achievements that rank at or near the pinnacle of 7H skill, and he's facing criticism from someone who managed to wipe four times in Morostav Trail. What do you think he should do? I mean, I just tried to wipe five times, doing crazy things like EBVAS when it's bound to cause overaggro, and only managed to wipe once. How do you wipe four times? I couldn't do it even though I tried to. Furthermore, It's criticism coming from someone who acknowledged he's using the build wrong. I call troll.

@Daesu, if it were anyone else posting this build, I would recognize the idea behind it and not comment (I hope anyway

). As for Spiritual Pain, I did make that post, but now I'm a bit uncertain. It is quite strong for a single-target spell. Compare Lightning Strike for example. There's simply no reason to use Lightning Strike @ 16 Air vs. Spiritual Pain @ 11 Dom. Lightning Orb is still better, but it's also 15e, 2s cast. Also considering the masses of AoE damage in the build already, it could certainly use a few skills that target solitary foes.

AndrewSX · May 05, 2011, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Stop flaming and try to realise one thing: he shared a build that, in the hand of the rigth player(and in his ones), can do pretty much anything. I prefer THIS kind of build, where player ability can increase effectiveness, not the brainless ones "Discord+Spirit+Mes+Ap caller - C+Space all the time". If you're fine and happy with it, no problem. But don't flame who can/want to use their own (better? up to you....) builds only b/c "Tried, this sucks, i have to think/micro!".

In other words, everyone uses the builds he prefer. If you're not comfortable with the team of someone else, and fail, don't use it/adapt it to you, but don't attack who created it(expecialy when he proved his skills more than once in a 7H enviroment).
For example, if i have to use this build, i'd prefer 2 backline of dedicated healer+protter, esurge for FoC (+panic = 3 mes, affordable w/o mercs thanks to razah), SY, another meele (dervs are so OP that heroes aren't that bad), and this just cause i think fit better my playstile......use your own brain!

And @hunter: it isn't cause this build comes from EFGJack, no one is "in his shadow", and i'm not writing this only cause it's your critcism, but your kind of argument (can't use it) comes out everytime someone share his build rating it "Great".
EVERY.
STUPID.
TIME.

P.S: ^/agree with Jeydra.

Essence Snow · May 05, 2011, 02:13 PM // 14:13

There are a few things I would change about the build....mainly spec 10 in dom for unatural alone, but otherwise it looks good.

^^home ticket up here is obvious troll...I wouldn't bother wasting anymore time on him

EFGJack · May 05, 2011, 02:20 PM // 14:20

@Essence - Reasoning for Domi spec just for unnatural sig was to get as much damage in as possible without losing much on energy as the bars are pretty tight as they are. Unnatural sig's condition is better than Sig of Clumsiness, otherwise I'd have that. Although I experimented with SoClumsiness & Calculated Risk / Wandering Eye, but with CR normal foes just die too fast before the hex gets to shine, Wandering Eye is the better option of the two (when going for max. on demand aoe), but having a 2s cast spell on a relatively short cooldown in the ST's bar is not exactly ideal as he was often casting WE while people were under pressure. that often lead to several deaths so I went with the domi signet.

And yeah. I can spot an average frustrated troll. thanks for noting. ;>

Daesu · May 05, 2011, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

He-he, i've had the same tought.

First of all, thanks for admitting that.

Be honest guys, if any lesser known player had posted this, this build would have been shot down within the first page.

Quote:

This is just the ultimate proof that good players which creates their own builds can steamroll PvE even better than the "OMG use meta builds n00b!" ppl.

If the community can accept this build to be possibly viable, I can only hope to see fewer "OMG this build sucks!" replies for other original builds that are from the common masses, especially when they have not even tried the builds out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

As for Spiritual Pain, I did make that post, but now I'm a bit uncertain. It is quite strong for a single-target spell. Compare Lightning Strike for example. There's simply no reason to use Lightning Strike @ 16 Air vs. Spiritual Pain @ 11 Dom. Lightning Orb is still better, but it's also 15e, 2s cast. Also considering the masses of AoE damage in the build already, it could certainly use a few skills that target solitary foes.

Lol... I like Spiritual Pain so I would have argued with you then if I have replied to that thread.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...26&postcount=6

@EFGJack: I didn't like ST defensive rits when I tried them out the last time because Shelter doesn't last long at all in HM. I usually go with Protective Spirit for targeted protection and micro that instead.

AndrewSX · May 05, 2011, 02:47 PM // 14:47

@Essence: srry, my "troll detector" was down, no more

Expecially if the OPoster itself think we can ignore him.

Quote:

If the community can accept this build to be possibly viable, I can only hope to see fewer "OMG this build sucks!" replies for other original builds that are from the common masses, especially when they have not even tried the builds out.

As you can see, there's always someone. And i don't think that the build itself would have been shut down in first page-at least 3-4, come on.....

Ah, and i prefer ER over ST too....but do not start a discussionon this plz.

On the "most damage with less energy pressure" issue, cause you have 3 Necs (and one of them is carrying blood stuff), couldn't be useful Blood Ritual(i know, i prefer to stay safe....)? I take it almost everytime i have more than 4 casters in the team. Keep it disabled when fights are short and there's time for recover if you prefer, but heroes seems to cast it only when ene drops under 50-40%, and 17ish % hp isn't a so huge sacrifice to handle anyway.

P.S: last thing to huntroll: attack directly and w/o any reason anyone disagree with you is the best way to lose your credibility. Expecially when you say nonsense things. * hint*

scratchdude · May 05, 2011, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

And @hunter: it isn't cause this build comes from EFGJack, no one is "in his shadow", and i'm not writing this only cause it's your critcism, but your kind of argument (can't use it) comes out everytime someone share his build rating it "Great".
EVERY.
STUPID.
TIME.

P.S: ^/agree with Jeydra.

So true. hunter go hide yourself, you're annoying ppl to death.

Back on topic, I tried the build yesterday on my derv in DOA NM, works like a charm : if your bodyblocking is successful, mobs will just explode. I also did Ragars HM, piece of cake.

FoxBat · May 05, 2011, 03:58 PM // 15:58

One big thing I will say for ST here, it provides unshatterable protection from outside of aggro range. Meaning your flagged heroes can be popping spirits while you are gathering aggro, and enemy mobs can't remove them. That gives you enough survivability to do a bit of balling without any heal support.

XxForgexX · May 05, 2011, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by scratchdude

if your bodyblocking is successful, mobs will just explode.

but what happens when you don't get perfect aggro? or when popups appear out of nowhere? or when another group comes up at you from behind? or when any other number of other random bad things happen, how does your build fare then?
a good build needs to do more than just blow up perfectly balled groups of bad guys. it needs to be able to still manage when things don't go entirely as planned, and that's where this build falls short

LexTalionis · May 05, 2011, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxForgexX

but what happens when you don't get perfect aggro? or when popups appear out of nowhere? or when another group comes up at you from behind? or when any other number of other random bad things happen, how does your build fare then?
a good build needs to do more than just blow up perfectly balled groups of bad guys. it needs to be able to still manage when things don't go entirely as planned, and that's where this build falls short

The problem here is that you're using a different definition of "good" from other people in this thread. Are other builds as efficient as his build when balling up enemies and blowing them up?

Unfortunately, Warrior and Dervish are the two Guild Wars primary classes that I don't have, so I'm afraid I can't make a tenable opinion on that, but your definition of "good" is "able to cope with heavy pressure in bad situations no matter how bad the player is or what the player is doing", whereas his definition of good is "Easy to play, as long as you play in this manner".

You can't promote Discordway as "absolutely useful for any circumstance". It does nuts to Cyndr the Mountain Heart, for one.

Voodoo Rage · May 05, 2011, 04:24 PM // 16:24

A common theme I see on almost all of these team builds is the dual mesmers which I think makes build craft extremely forgiving. The ST Rit is also enormously effective if you aren't running minions. Speaking of minions, I'm wondering since we aren't running them, is there really that much reason to bring along the Fall Back chain on the necros? It seems you might be able to drop that and squeeze in some smite and orders support.

EFGJack · May 05, 2011, 04:37 PM // 16:37

@Forge - This is for advanced players. Every player with experience knows to check compass for patrols and with experience comes the knowledge of popups and possible deathtrap patrols, too.
@Voodoo Rage - Running around takes up more time than fighting, so in practice FB gets you through PvE faster than any damaging skill ever will. I understand seeing big numbers is a great deal of fun, but I also like to get done with whatever PvE I'm doing so I chose FB over melee support. But feel free to modify it to suit your personal preferences.

Haggis of Doom · May 05, 2011, 05:56 PM // 17:56

I can see this whole debate from both sides. It's merely a "glass canon, yay or nay" issue.

It's like asking: should you wear heavy armor into a medieval battlefield? Common sense says yes, but if you're insanely skilled you may argue otherwise. Just don't expect everyone to follow your example. They may gawk and say "wow you're good", but don't get all angry and superior when they say "no thanks, I won't fight like you do. It's kinda weird that you suggested that I do in the first place".

Personally I think glass canon builds are far from optimal in general PvE. The damage is exceptional, but overkill. You might or might not shave off a couple minutes off the VQ, but the extra risk and effort are not worth it. In the very competitive GW build market, if your return on investment is bad, your product will not be popular. Of course, I have little reason to doubt that in the right hands, it's an excellent build for the hardest parts of GW

For an even further opinion of things, read Cthon's About Backlines.

hunter · May 05, 2011, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Here is something for your entertainment. Should prove a point or 2 about build efficiency and how tank and spank can be done with any halfassed build with 0 synergy
DoA HM double pull