Curse

Xenomortis · May 04, 2011, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Well you could keep Oppressive Gaze - particularly if you dropped Rip Enchantment for Enfeebling Blood as mentioned earlier since that makes it more likely the target will be conditioned.

Meh, it hardly matters though.

paK0 · May 04, 2011, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Mh. It looks interesting, I might just try it (as A/W).

Few questions though:
- Is FB necessary for battle or just so you can move faster from group to group?
- How does this do in areas where the party size is limited to 4 or 6?

EFGJack · May 04, 2011, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by paK0

Mh. It looks interesting, I might just try it (as A/W).

Few questions though:
- Is FB necessary for battle or just so you can move faster from group to group?
- How does this do in areas where the party size is limited to 4 or 6?

FB is there just so I can move faster. Traveling takes much more time than fighting, so practically FB speeds up PvE by more than any damaging skill ever will. And it's probably pretty bad in 4/6 man areas, never tried those, though.

Chthon · May 04, 2011, 06:26 PM // 18:26

I assume this should go with saying, but...
...tank-n-spank tactics, right?

EFGJack · May 04, 2011, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I assume this should go with saying, but...
...tank-n-spank tactics, right?

Read the OP. But yes, you get better results if you make sure the foes are close to each other. Check out the clip I posted earlier, that's hardly considered T&S.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icf8YQaBiwY

Plutoman · May 04, 2011, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Looks interesting for sure. I'd give feedback, but I pretty much exclusively play ele (sometimes other casters), just 'cause I'm a fantasy geek carrying over my love for wizards from games like Neverwinter Nights and etc. So I can't give much feedback as an ele.

EFGJack · May 04, 2011, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Well you could keep Oppressive Gaze - particularly if you dropped Rip Enchantment for Enfeebling Blood as mentioned earlier since that makes it more likely the target will be conditioned.

Meh, it hardly matters though.

It's a legit change. Rip -> Enfeebling Blood & Barbed Signet for say, Mark of Fury. With Dark Fury the blood necro may run into energy issues though. I need to check it out tomorrow.

And the reason I have the "No testing no criticism" line is that people tend to comment on this and that without having a clue on how the build plays it out and how a certain skill affects the build as a whole. And more often than not people are mindlessly suggesting to run a build from pvx... So, has anyone actually tried this build yet?

Xenomortis · May 04, 2011, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

So, has anyone actually tried this build yet?

No, but I would argue that isn't a legit reason to dismiss ideas out of hand.
I'd agree it is a fair reason to dismiss most comments along the lines of "this isn't very good" or "this is much better" since you've demonstrated that the build is capable of doing almost everything with minor alterations.

hunter · May 04, 2011, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

This build is for general Hard Mode play: Vanquishing, Missions, ZBounties, Dungeons & FOW. Slight modifications are required for UW, DoA and Slavers!

How to play
You don't need any micro other than flagging heroes behind while aggroing foes to have 'em somewhat close to eachother. Although my test subjects reported good results even without flagging heroes. I suggest pre-casting spirits on the ST for greater survivability.

Recommended Equipment
Zealous sword, minor weapon rune on yourself & 40/40 set of the attribute of the heroes' elite skill. +armor insignia, Superior Vigor & Vitae runes on empty slots on heroes.
There are crafters for 20/20 Wands & Focii in Vasburg Armory & Leviathan Pits.

A few explanations...
Signets of Rejuvenation on the mesmers: Heals that I couldn't fit on any other hero. Signets because I can't strain the mesmer's energy any further.
Panic: Panic offers Hidden DPS and Protection. Every heal interrupted equals that amount of damage done to the target of the interrupted heal. Same goes for interrupted damage spells. And interruptions mean less healing required by your heroes = more time casting damage spells. Panic is very strong.
Clamor & Spirit Rift: Added AOE on the Splinter&AR bot.
Unnatural Signets: Free Armor-ignoring AOE.
Blood Bond: With the lack of healing in this build Blood Bond certainly carries it's weight as one of the 64 skills. It heals you for a hundred every time a foe hexed by it dies next to you. It's too good to pass on. Plus it serves as an AOE hex for Feasts of Corruption.

Right. I know it's not a good idea for me to play a build and publish it and assume everyone will have similar success rate with it, so I shared the build with several belgian guildmates of mine and they successfully made their way through the labyrinth without getting zapped too much. And believe me, if they're getting results with this build I'm sure you will find this build to be extremely effective in general HM PvE. I accept critique and ideas to replace skill X with skill Y but only from people who have tested this build in more than 1 area.

Go and try it yourself. I'll argue you'll never run anything else (unless ofc you have mercs)

Took it out for a spin on Morostav trail HM. Results, wiped 4x. Wiped a lot more than my usual build and i actually had to micro heroes all the time to avoid death.

Flagging and microing does not equal good general PVE build.

Problems:

Lacks a proper healer. 1 half asses N/RT does not it. Rejuv signet on mes at 6 attributes is a joke either
Lacks a proper rez: Death pact signet is ridiculous because it actually gives you more problems than what its worth.

Lacks AoE healing: Heavy curse areas and/or Condition spam woudl cripple this build in a few seconds. There is simply not enough AoE healing to take care of it.

Lacks Single target prots: 1 party member being focused => death. Don't give me the shelter bullshit. Shelter is a buffer, As soon as shelter goes down, someone dies. You need prot spells.

Lacks melee shutdown. As soon as shelter goes down your midline/backline drops like flies to melee mobs. I realize you can body block stuff but IF you are claiming this is a general PVE no micro build than you should not need to body block to get through areas you can normally clear with 0 micro

Solutions:

Add UA monk, its a must for both AoE heals and a strong rez, which you lack
Add prot magic somewhere in there. whether its ER prot or a prot on a necro i don't care, just add it.
Change a mes to ineptitude and illusion, you need melee/pjysical shutdown.

Xenomortis · May 04, 2011, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

Lacks a proper healer. 1 half asses N/RT does not it. Rejuv signet on mes at 6 attributes is a joke either

Of your list, I think this is the only one actually problematic.
It makes the build quite unforgiving if you slip up on aggro and you let enemies walk straight into your hero ball. It's common for setups for physicals to pack a lot more raw defense than this (SY + Dedicated backline) and that makes things very forgiving.

I briefly tried this build (with poorly equipped heroes, but buying all these runes cuts me deep and my War doesn't have IAU nor IATS) and have the following observations.

If you let mobs with significant damage hammer on your heroes, they're going to die.
This can be avoided by precasting spirits and decent aggro (with practice it's plausible to get most enemies hit on you reliably).
Shit dies and it dies fast, provided they're not too spread out.

I missed a few things though - namely SoH but I really cannot see how to put that into this setup. I also missed having armour insignias, for some reason my War has Survivor's.
I did take a few things away from this though - I was genuinely surprised at how effective the AoE spells were with no input from myself so whilst I won't be using this setup, that may be something I'll look at more seriously in future.

Wenspire · May 04, 2011, 11:04 PM // 23:04

My impression from comparing the video and what hunter has commented on is that if there are melee enemies involved, there will probably be a need to do some form of body blocking. This even-more-so since you are not using spirits or minions. However, with being able to do that I can see how quick the build can kill groups of enemies.

EFGJack · May 04, 2011, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Apparently my dutch labrats aren't as bad as I initially thought.. Tell me. If I doublepull DOA HM with next to no deaths and very little micro, how can you wipe in Morostrav trail, not once, but four times? I must add the following line: In order to succesfully play GW with the build presented in this thread you must play with two hands on keyboard and mouse & two eyes on the monitor!

I'm perfectly aware of the potential this build has and that it indeed is a glass cannon, but just because you need three heroes.backline in Morostrav Trail I refuse to modify a perfectly viable build.

But I will investigate Morostrav Trail without micro when I get up tomorrow.

hunter · May 04, 2011, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

Apparently my dutch labrats aren't as bad as I initially thought.. Tell me. If I doublepull DOA HM with next to no deaths and very little micro, how can you wipe in Morostrav trail, not once, but four times? I must add the following line: In order to succesfully play GW with the build presented in this thread you must play with two hands on keyboard and mouse & two eyes on the monitor!

I'm perfectly aware of the potential this build has and that it indeed is a glass cannon, but just because you need three heroes.backline in Morostrav Trail I refuse to modify a perfectly viable build.

You asked for feedback. I gave you feedback

You are claiming this is a general PVE build. We just disproved you on this claim.

This build is good but it requires micro and more bodyblocking/flagging than im willing to deal with for a simple vanquish.

Your build requires body blocking to function properly, and might i add that any kind of halfassed build with a warrior primary can work wonders with a perfect bodyblock.

I had my heroes die to the stone statues which spawned midway through the pull with ranger boss (so couldn't block)

if i had to pick between having to play with 2 hands on the keyboard, and having to play with 1 C-spacing i would definitely choose the later.

Dzjudz · May 04, 2011, 11:15 PM // 23:15

I didn't see much (if any?) melee in that video though, so his comments about fragility vs melee are probably correct. Your Shelter can take 7 hits before dying, that can only protect a party of 8 so much.

mage767 · May 04, 2011, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Been there, done that. Can't argue with the main build (except for EbSOH). My 100b war GWAMM retired last year.

Heroes may need be changed/adjusted depending on specific area.

BTW, I agree with Hunters post #1 on team build criticisms.

Jeydra · May 04, 2011, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

You are claiming this is a general PVE build. We just disproved you on this claim.

If a build can survive a double pull in City HM with LB title down and suffer only one death, I would be extremely surprised if it fails four times in Morostav Trail HM. In fact, I'd be willing to bet 100 ectos that it doesn't happen, and the reason you wiped was because you did it wrong.

PS: Displacement protects against melee too.

About the SoH thing, I initially thought it should be possible to slot on one of the Ritualists without them running out of energy, but I haven't tried so if EFGJack says it's not possible I believe him. Although when I ran my ST Rit for UW HM he was generally fine on energy, and he had less energy management + more spirits

How strange.

hunter · May 04, 2011, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If a build can survive a double pull in City HM with LB title down and suffer only one death, I would be extremely surprised if it fails four times in Morostav Trail HM. In fact, I'd be willing to bet 100 ectos that it doesn't happen, and the reason you wiped was because you did it wrong.

PS: Displacement protects against melee too.

About the SoH thing, I initially thought it should be possible to slot on one of the Ritualists without them running out of energy, but I haven't tried so if EFGJack says it's not possible I believe him. Although when I ran my ST Rit for UW HM he was generally fine on energy, and he had less energy management + more spirits

How strange.

Of course i did it wrong, I never flagged my heroes. hence why i died.

Funny thing is, i never have to flag my heroes on any kind of set up i run and i never have a single death on general vanquish or HM missions.

if a build is reliant on flagging to get shit done in regular hard mode (read: excluding DoA/UW) than its not an optimal build.

Watch the video carefully. Most of the pull he did consists of ranged mobs, which are easy enough to ball and hence he has no problem dealing with.

The problems arise on open field encounters when you have spawns and when melee can easily run past you to get to your heroes.

How about you run that build and test it for yourself instead of spouting general bullshit theorycrafting at me>?

Jeydra · May 05, 2011, 12:06 AM // 00:06

I don't have to, because you kind of admitted that you fail with the build because you're bad at using it

When I fail with any build / area, I generally try to improve my playing style before changing the build. I did just that many times while trying 4H, all the while using either exactly the same build or with just minor variations. EFGJack's a lot more willing to go for the big changes though, which is why he brought in MT + Barbed Trap ...

PS: If never having to flag or micro heroes is your priority, I suggest you run BDSM.

hunter · May 05, 2011, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I don't have to, because you kind of admitted that you fail with the build because you're bad at using it

When I fail with any build / area, I generally try to improve my playing style before changing the build. I did just that many times while trying 4H, all the while using either exactly the same build or with just minor variations. EFGJack's a lot more willing to go for the big changes though, which is why he brought in MT + Barbed Trap ...

PS: If never having to flag or micro heroes is your priority, I suggest you run BDSM.

Thats right, i never want, or have to micro my heroes in vanquishes and HM missions. In fact my builds don't require me to do so. Hence why im saying that EFG's build is suboptimal for general PVE.

Any kind of build which requires flagging short of UW/DoA is suboptimal at best.

In fact i went back and removed 2 necros, added a smiter and UA one, and changed 1 mesmer to illusion. Breezed through the area with no deaths and didn't need the flag once. I think this does say something about EFGs build.

Wenspire · May 05, 2011, 12:32 AM // 00:32

@Jeydra: I think the issue here is according to the title, this group setup is aiming to be an all-around HM VQ, missions, etc setup for general play. Unfortunately, I think most people's idea of general play is rushing head-long into groups one after another (which I don't really think is a good idea).

However people, keep in mind that in the OP's initial post, it does make mention of minor flagging of heroes while the tank goes in. Therefore, trying to play this build without at least a little bit of tactics probably would not yield the best results.