Curse

Gladiator Steven · Nov 24, 2011, 04:36 AM // 04:36

I understand I'm opening up a can of worms here but lets be rational:

Everyone considers the SoS ritualist to be a major part of any team build whether it be discordway or 7 hero player support. The fact of the matter is, the SoS hero just takes a long time to set up spirits.

Lets look at the skills:

Signet of Spirits: No energy, 30 second recharge time.

Blood Song: 5e, 30 second recharge time

The core and key skills of any SoS build.

Hopefully, we all know heroes can't have summon spirits equipped on them which would make this build a heck of a lot more powerful if they could so how is this skill bar viable when the recharge times are long and you breeze through enemies with the rest of your heroes?

Personally, I run three discord heroes, AoTL MM, 2 e-surge mesmers, and Invoking Lightning.

With AoTL, I usually have a wall of minions up and running within the first two or three mobs therefore supplying me my wall of protection.

The 20 or so damage benefit you receive from bloodsong is negliegble and weak, lets face it.

Sure you get spirits from the air and quickly but when its all said and done, you'll usually see your SoS rit trailing behind gasping for air. And when one or two enemies are left standing in a mob, the SoS only than sets his spirits up.

I'll be testing areas that would seem to prove rather difficult without the use of a SoS ritualist (e.g. Vloxen Excavations) and will post screens and share my results as time progresses.

il Priscilla il · Nov 24, 2011, 04:58 AM // 04:58

I personally have the SoS, as moderate damage, but provides aggro relief due to mobs shifting aggro to spirits, as well as painful bond, increasing the dps of the spirits pretty significantly. Simultaneously providing some pretty decent cond removal / heals.

It's a multifaceted build which is why it's so desirable.

I go with 4-*5 mes, *sos, bip/resto, u/a (removing a mesmer if I need the bonus of added defense over offense, usually in select areas of HM / missions). Additionally, SoS tagged with a SoGM is huge defense that can sustain pretty much indefinitely, making any area of the game a paced walk in the park.

If you are having trouble with your SoS delaying its cast, then simply shift click the skill and micro it to what you require.

Essence Snow · Nov 24, 2011, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Ancestors rage and splinter weapon are part of a hero sos build. Couple those in with sos and you still have 5 skill slots left to do with what u like. Most run a channeling/restoration split.

I'm not sure why you are running discords and an Atol...kinda seems counter-intuitive.

Venganza · Nov 24, 2011, 05:40 AM // 05:40

I would never use an SoS hero, or any Rt hero apart from ST Prot. Nor do I use Discord anymore, it just isn't as effective as 4 mesmers and a single MM with 19 points death magic.

Shayne Hawke · Nov 24, 2011, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Spawns three spirits that
- Do armor-ignoring damage.
- Act as shields/distractions for oncoming damage.
- Block enemy movement.
Spirits -> Synergizes with some spirit skills, such as:
- Mend Body and Soul
- Spirit Light
- Spirit Siphon
- Painful Bond
Channeling Magic skill -> Runs well with skills such as:
- Splinter Weapon
- Ancestor's Rage

Sounds like a fairly impressive skill/build to me.

The recharge time shouldn't be too much of a concern. In PvE, a fight will take maybe thirty seconds to a minute anyways. If you don't pre-cast spirits before an engagement, you'll be able to get off one or two castings of this skill per fight, and one more if you pre-cast. In the window between casts, the spirits should definitely do their job of soaking up some damage, dealing other damage, and working well with the rest of the team.

An MM isn't really much better. To get skills like Splinter Weapon or Ancestor's Rage, you'd have to spec into at least three attributes (Death, SR, Channeling), and then your build won't even work that well in areas where corpses are limited. Just because an army of ~8 minions sounds better to me than 3 spirits in that moment, I would probably elect to take an MM over one of these SoS ritualists in a 4-man, or possibly even 6-man situation. However, in all other cases (pretty much always), I would bring a SoS rit.

Lanier · Nov 24, 2011, 06:33 AM // 06:33

I would never use a mesmer or an invoke ele over a SoS. Having those extra bodies in a fight is just too powerful defensively, and im not too impatient to wait for my SoS to catch up to the group before facing another mob, if he happens to be lagging behind (which rarely happens). While minions make up the first wall in my team build, spirits make up the second wall, taking a lot of pressure off my healers. They also inflict a lot of damage, and I like to bring a paragon in my group to further buff the spirits with anthem of fury/disruption and buff the minions with gfte.

So yea... rather than choosing between spirits or minions, just use both

Toraen · Nov 24, 2011, 06:43 AM // 06:43

An SoS hero provides Splinter and Arage for my melee at high spec which is my main reason for bringing it (3 spirits for MBaS is also very helpful). SoS just happens to be the best channeling elite for cleanup of what I miss, and I don't need it up right away. Even so, it recharges between groups most of the time. Bloodsong isn't actually a required skill, and I often drop it for something more useful. The melee buffs will be used on minions if you aren't in melee yourself, and they distribute the damage fairly well.

Most builds can benefit from a good SoS hero, which is why you see it so much. It's a very safe and proven option that can provide a lot of utility. A mesmer has advantages of course, but you only get three of them at most and you aren't going to need an ST rit in every area.

Spiritz · Nov 24, 2011, 07:03 AM // 07:03

If the op is worried about sos rt taking too long then why are they not setting the spirits up manually then engaging.
Aotl isnt really needed - yes it does give instant minions but the aotl mm tends to waste it on recharge.
Ive used 7h discord and never really had any probs using it - it has 2 rits which does give a bit more defence as we all know mm`s with death nova tends to lag behind and usually the spirits are up before the mm shifts his minions into the fight.
In 7 hero discordway 2 necros have minions - shambling horror and err the 2 minions skill ( its early and brains still asleep so memorys shot ) and in places where there is lack of corpses i only have to alter about 3 skills on the 2 necros.

KotCR · Nov 24, 2011, 07:39 AM // 07:39

I don't think SoS slows you down too much; They're generally availiable for the big engagements you do need them in, and set up quick enough for most of the small ones even (2 seconds for SoS + Bloodsong they'll still be enemies to kill).

Infact, I found it was Minion Master heroes who were worse for this, and I stopped brining them a while back except in defensive missions, instead replacing them with Paragons (can easily wield the same utility, with the tanking provided via themselves intead of via minions), as the Minion Master heroes always seemed to fall behind when I was doing vanquishes and what not and by the time the Minion Master finally sent the Minions into the fight it was always already over. With Paragons instead the team moves out of and into new combats more smoothly and efficiently.

I also often found with Minion Master heroes I have to micro their utility skills to get them to use them when required alot more, whereas my Paragons tend to use them without the need for prompting from me (probably because unlike the Necromancers they'll be in the thick of the things themselves from the start instead of lagging behind, so the AI thinks to trigger them earlier).

The SoS heroes have remained a staple of my team set-ups though, as I don't find the same lag in action with them as I often see from MM heroes.

DokkyDok · Nov 24, 2011, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Bloodsong isn't a core skill.
Splinter is.

In a party with a MM, your SoS hero will not be the one lagging behind. Just micro SoS as you see fit.

DarkKnight · Nov 24, 2011, 09:35 AM // 09:35

SoS is a really good skill just for soaking up damage and keeping baddies off your backline but the core of an SoS build is really the other skills involved.

In the past spirit spammers have always been strong assuming they had the time to get spirits up, and assuming you waited for the crazy long recharges.

With SoS you can get up 3 spitits without being a spirit spammer. In the past 3 spirits took 3 skills and a min of a 1.5 sec per cast. SoS gets 3 spirits in 1 sec for no energy. Leaving the rest of your time and energy pool for the other powerful rit skills that in the past you would not have had the space to bring, or time and energy to use.

It provides a light tanking, more targets for baddies to choose from, and decent damage for no energy while leaving you seven skills slots to work with that is its power.

drowze · Nov 24, 2011, 11:42 AM // 11:42

I honestly can't imagine myself doing the HM WoC quests on shing jea island without the use of a sos-hero (realising now how dependant I am on certain heroes, makes me feel ashamed ><).

Xenomortis · Nov 24, 2011, 12:35 PM // 12:35

The strength of the SoS Rit hero isn't the raw power provided by the first two skills (SoS and Bloodsong); it's the efficiency of these skills and the resulting flexibility of the character.

snowman relic · Nov 24, 2011, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venganza

I would never use an SoS hero, or any Rt hero apart from ST Prot. Nor do I use Discord anymore, it just isn't as effective as 4 mesmers and a single MM with 19 points death magic.

Could we get a look at the team build your running?

Kunder · Nov 24, 2011, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Blood Song sucks. Don't use it.

SoS is mostly just a filler elite that does decent damage over time and generates energy through Spirit Siphon. The true offensive power of a channeling rit comes from Splinter Weapon and to a lesser extent Ancestor's Rage. SoS itself deals slightly under 50 DPS. Thats nice, but being single target and unable to be directly controlled its impact on the battle tends to be minor. The real reason you take it is because it requires 1.75 seconds to do this, leaving you time to work with your other skills.

SW is an up to 250 damage AoE spell with a recharge of 5 seconds, and it can even be pre-cast before battle to deal 250 * # of physicals + 250 damage per 5 seconds. If you need even more power it combines for exponential power with AoE attacks + 100B/VoS + MoP. Its arguably the best single offensive skill in the game.

Ancestor's Rage of course is just a nice extra nuke spell. A nuke spell that has .25s cast time and is armor ignoring. Poor Eles wish they had spells like that.

Speccing into Restoration, you also get Mend Body and Soul. Yay removing 3 conditions at once. Spirit light is a ridiculously high heal for its cost. We have 75%-power healer with a 300%-power condition removal (blind is bad for physicals, mmmmkay?) ontop of our ridiculous damage output.

That said, if you aren't a physical then not running an SoS is totally understandable. Hero AI for physicals sucks to begin with and its completely unable to target enemies for maximum damage with SW.

Far worse are the idiots who insist on SoGM heroes in groups. Holy RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO, the entire enemy group is dead before those heroes have half their spirits set up. Either that or you have to spend 30 seconds before every group to set up spirits that will make a 15 second battle last 2 seconds less. Absolutely useless in any group that is competent.

wilebill · Nov 24, 2011, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Wasting the valuable RiT on SoS spirit spam?

[wilebill shrieks with horror and thrashes on floor] No. No. Just no.

SoS spirits have approximately the damage output of a tweetie bird in HM, complete waste.

No. No. Instead use Rit for protective spirit spam whereby your party gains a resistance to damage like unto concrete while Razah stands quietly in the back with a smile on his face. Shelter, Union, Displacement.

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Soul Twisting and Spirit Siphon keep energy up and the party rockin' and rollin'. Boon of Creation and Signet of Creation don't hurt a bit and there will even be enough energy for Spirit Light. With this Razah, my Mesmer ignores the facts of life and tanks.

Seriously SoS will work for something like Battle for Lion's Arch but have not used it as a hero build since.

Daesu · Nov 24, 2011, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Disussions such as this one tend to concentrate on generic builds without considering that a build's effectiveness depends greatly on where it is used. Without taking the game mechanics into account, how can you assign "true values" to skills.

Sure spirit skills setup and recharge can lower its overall DPS when compared with some of the recently buffed skills. But in those places that require you to
"defend an area", spirits can be invaluable and the 30s recharge of SoS seems less of a factor.

SoS spirits are also defensive as well as offensive. They provide a means to tank attacks which most straight out offensive skills do not have. Ignoring spirits defensive capabilities while only considering their offensive capabilities is short sighted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Blood Song sucks. Don't use it.

SoS is mostly just a filler elite that does decent damage over time and generates energy through Spirit Siphon. The true offensive power of a channeling rit comes from Splinter Weapon and to a lesser extent Ancestor's Rage. SoS itself deals slightly under 50 DPS. Thats nice, but being single target and unable to be directly controlled its impact on the battle tends to be minor. The real reason you take it is because it requires 1.75 seconds to do this, leaving you time to work with your other skills.

If you take Painful Bond into account, and you should in spirit based team builds, their DPS is a bit higher.

Quote:

SW is an up to 250 damage AoE spell with a recharge of 5 seconds, and it can even be pre-cast before battle to deal 250 * # of physicals + 250 damage per 5 seconds. If you need even more power it combines for exponential power with AoE attacks + 100B/VoS + MoP. Its arguably the best single offensive skill in the game.

In almost every SW calculation I see, they assume perfectly lined up 3 adjacent enemies over 5 attacks (i.e. over time).

Ultima pyromancer · Nov 24, 2011, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowman relic

Could we get a look at the team build your running?

I assume he's running something similar to what I do, Although I swear by the SoS rit. It's probably the most efficient hero build on my roster, just for the sheer amount it provides for the team. In terms of damage, damage mitigation, buffing minion damage output and also running a dedicated healer build without gimping itself.

Now the efficiency bringing an MM is probably a more viable argument. Without micro'ing its not rare for fights to end without olias even moving in with the minions, he's constantly lagging behind with death nova, he uses AoTL like a complete noob.

Right now i believe more mesmers is more win, they are just stupidly good at what they do. The fact that they turn the conditional variable on interupt skills into a constant is just rediculous (they always hit it.)

Having used sabway, discord, physway etc. I can safely say nothing has felt more faceroll than having 3 mesmer heroes and my primary mesmer as caller.

Anyway heres an older build I was running for time. A defensive spirit rit is what I usually run now without an MM and i never catch xandra or razah lagging behind.

http://www.gwpvx.com/User:Facet_of_Chaos

EDIT: Just a quick note, I understand my hero setup is far from efficient having so many rezzes and fallbacks but I am extremely lazy and like my heroes to be self sufficient so I can watch TV etc while vanquishing or whatever im doing.

KotCR · Nov 24, 2011, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

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A bit off-topic, but putting 9 points into Restoration just for Spirit Light seems like a waste of a skill slot and attributes in that particular ST Rt, especially seems you are also split between Channeling, Spawning Power and Communing in that variation of the build - so also powering down your defensive spirits and your energy management. What you might gain in healing from Spirit Light you lose in protection from Communing/Spawning Power.

You'd be better off sticking another utility or offensive skill on the bar from either Channeling or Communing instead. But if you really felt like you needed extra healing you could instead use one of the heals from the Spawning Power line, which despite often destroying a spirit are made practical by Soul Twisting (Spirit can be replaced immediately anyway). These heals tend to be pretty big too and you'd avoid the awkward attribute spread (aswell as freeing up a rune slot for more health/energy/condition reduction, etc).

I'm sure it still works anyway, but just doesn't seem particularly well optimised.

Kunder · Nov 24, 2011, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Disussions such as this one tend to concentrate on generic builds without considering that a build's effectiveness depends greatly on where it is used. Without taking the game mechanics into account, how can you assign "true values" to skills.

Sure spirit skills setup and recharge can lower its overall DPS when compared with some of the recently buffed skills. But in those places that require you to
"defend an area", spirits can be invaluable and the 30s recharge of SoS seems less of a factor.

Yes, and those areas make up .05% of the game and are already fairly easy.

Quote:

SoS spirits are also defensive as well as offensive. They provide a means to tank attacks which most straight out offensive skills do not have. Ignoring spirits defensive capabilities while only considering their offensive capabilities is short sighted.

Spirits stay in the backline and tank nothing most of the time. Its not like minions that get up in enemy's faces and draw fire.

Quote:

If you take Painful Bond into account, and you should in spirit based team builds, their DPS is a bit higher.

If you are very lucky and all spirits target the right target, Painful Bond is 15e for 30 DPS. That's at be decent, but if even 1 spirit is attacking the wrong target then you get taken down to 20 DPS, which is at the level of degen builds (and everyone knows how much degen sucks I'm sure).

Quote:

In almost every SW calculation I see, they assume perfectly lined up 3 adjacent enemies over 5 attacks (i.e. over time)

With only 2 enemies SW is still a 100-150 damage nuke for 5e every 5s that can be precast.

Lining up 3 enemies is pretty easy, they almost do it themselves. BTW Have you heard about multihit attacks that any competent physical character brings? Anyone who thinks SW isn't one of the top tier skills is just bad, sorry. The only builds that can _instantly_ destroy a group will always be including SW. Nukers can pew pew away, buffed physicals drop health bars in the blink of an eye.

Quote:

Now the efficiency bringing an MM is probably a more viable argument. Without micro'ing its not rare for fights to end without olias even moving in with the minions, he's constantly lagging behind with death nova, he uses AoTL like a complete noob.

Chaining Fall Back is the standard answer to this. Of course you can chain Fall Back without MMs and go even faster, but only MMs really have both the attribute points, bar space, energy and secondary slot available to easily integrate it without weakening them significantly. Also take off Death Nova, its bad (at the very least micro it so its disabled out of battle).