Curse

Premium Unleaded · Jun 02, 2011, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Why not frenzy instead of flail? Energy shouldn't be much of an issue, there isn't the -25% move problem, wwa costs 4a less and available immediately. Also lets you put the strength points into tactics in the case of the 100B ver. Shouldn't make that much of a difference to damage taken if you're microing heroes heavily.

yhm · Jun 02, 2011, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Is it possible to fit in Tryptophan Signet on the warrior bar, and replace the earth ele in favor of a mesmer(e-surge)? At the least, give the earth ele some time to fire off those 3s spells?

EFGJack · Jun 02, 2011, 04:15 PM // 16:15

It's possible, but I wouldn't recommend it. I've done little experimenting with a Stolen Speed Mesmer instead of the necro, and having the Ele play BiP and it's pretty nifty as everyone will cast faster, but you lose out on partywide heals and condition removal - In the end you can run anything you think suits you better, or is more enjoyable.

hunter · Jun 02, 2011, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Lol...you wish. The build was derived from one of Jack's older posts which I took notice here:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=132

I expected him to continue using 2 mesmers because of his RoJ build above and his advanced warrior build here:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...85&postcount=1

One major difference between the build I posted and yours is that mine does not include minions. Without the need for a MM, my build is not affected in low corpse areas and my heroes do not lag behind while waiting for Death Nova to be cast. This means I can move faster especially with 2 "Fall Back!" instead of just 1 FB in yours.

Also mine does not include Judge's Insight and Jack also did not bring Judge's Insight when clearing Majesty's Rest.

Lastly, there are a few issues with your build:

1. Putting Protective Spirit on the ST defensive rit bar is too defensive and too energy intensive. Furthermore, unless you micro (which you claimed you don't

) the hero can be too busy keeping up spirits or other spells and not cast PS when you need it most. Also, your Boon of Creation does not help with PS energy management when your team is in trouble and your hero has to keep casting PS.

2. Heroes do not use Signet of Creation well. This is most obvious when out of battle and spirits are gone, the hero would keep casting SoC without spirits around just because he is low on energy, even though it does nothing without spirits close by.

3. MoP > Judge's Insight in most general areas. On the other hand, since you probably c-space everything, MoP does not fit your playstyle and you can't benefit from it as much as Jack's builds can.

4. You have no team wide blocking to protect your squishies which is a big problem if you don't aggro manage. Displacement is a better choice than Union. 15 damage reduction is not a big deal in HM. Union itself usually lasts long enough even without ST, but since you are using ST why waste it on Union?

5. No cracked armor?

6. Your warrior build is still too energy intensive and is probably more suitable to go with a discordway team build.

7. Mine has Blood Bond and Dark Fury, yours don't, which means that my warrior gains adrenaline much faster than yours. They are not necessary skills but they are nice to have.

8. "Never Surrender!" does not affect minions anymore. It used to due to a bug, but that has been fixed.

9. That general build is standard and has been around for a long time with contributions from myself and many others on this forum.

Ok a few things:

PS and SoA are needed to prevent single target spike. Since you are always running in first they will be up on you most of the time

Signet of creation is used quite well actually, once i put that up the hero has no energy issues

- MoP is a joke even if you micro shit around because of its cooldown, and it slows you down too much

- Why would i need cracked armor when most dmg is armor ignoring

- Balthz spirit solves the e problems, give it a go, before you try to criticize shit you have no clue how it works (points at union/shelter combo)

- I have tried playing around with dark fury and i find that once you have FGJ up, the adren gain gets too much to the point where you are being limited by the attack animations and cooldown of WW attack.

- "never surrender" is there to boost up AoE healing in heavy hex based areas, it helps, free healing.

- Ya, thats awesome, so you should have posted it sooner.

As far as AOTL is concearned, its why i have fallback on my necro. AOTL helps a lot in 99% of the areas and can be switched out for something else in areas like SoO.

Calista Blackblood · Jun 02, 2011, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Cut the crap out,you all know who I'm directing this post at.

Dzjudz · Jun 02, 2011, 06:20 PM // 18:20

If you're going for a micro tank 'n spank build, why not go all out and aoe the crap out of everything? This build is trying to be half micro tank 'n spank and half c-space, and not being overly successful at either.

maxxfury · Jun 03, 2011, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

also Judges insight makes you deal holy dmg, which is armor ignoring AND deal double dmg on undead (like those fellas in FoW and SoO which are very very scary for warriors)

double damage vs undead(bonus vs tormentors sigs too), damn right, +20% penetration? bonus!! armour ignoring? nope.

It just doesnt have any enemy that has +armour vs holy sig's and doesnt count and get mitigated by +armour vs physical, or +armour vs elem sigs.....

Same with Chaos and dark damage types..

SKILLS that dead holy damage are armour ignoring, but not what comes from wands or JI'd physicals.. Its just a damage type conversion. Means you loose out on most of the physical synergies that really steps up the melee outputs..

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Judge%27s_Insight

Calista Blackblood · Jun 03, 2011, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

--Do not engage in "Quote Wars"
Quote Wars is defined as when a person dissects someone else's post into several quotes and responds to those individually instead of quoting and replying to the entire post as a whole. It's ugly, it's messy, and usually disintegrates into out-of-context replies and flamewars.

No need at all for any of this.

hunter · Jun 03, 2011, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

double damage vs undead(bonus vs tormentors sigs too), damn right, +20% penetration? bonus!! armour ignoring? nope.

It just doesnt have any enemy that has +armour vs holy sig's and doesnt count and get mitigated by +armour vs physical, or +armour vs elem sigs.....

Same with Chaos and dark damage types..

SKILLS that dead holy damage are armour ignoring, but not what comes from wands or JI'd physicals.. Its just a damage type conversion. Means you loose out on most of the physical synergies that really steps up the melee outputs..

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Judge%27s_Insight

So are you claiming JI is a bad skill because...?

Only downside is that it loses synergies with Order of pain (waste of 12 attributes tbh) and mark of pain (which we went over already)

So yeah, free 20% armor penetration (13 strength only gives you 13% AP) on top of extra dmg vs undead. Not seeing a problem really.

HigherMinion · Jun 03, 2011, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

So are you claiming JI is a bad skill because...?

Only downside is that it loses synergies with Order of pain (waste of 12 attributes tbh) and mark of pain (which we went over already)

So yeah, free 20% armor penetration (13 strength only gives you 13% AP) on top of extra dmg vs undead. Not seeing a problem really.

Mark of Pain is bad? Maybe if you're a fanboy of DPS and bad at balling.

...Infact, you don't even have to ball for it to be effective, even if you're using spirits/minions, because they ball for you. Mark of Pain is the best skill in the game. If you took JI, you wouldn't get much return for losing MoP, Barbs and OoP. Which is more than 20% penetration...

It's also not "free" 20% pen. It's a skill slot with damage conversion.

hunter · Jun 03, 2011, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Mark of Pain is bad? Maybe if you're a fanboy of DPS and bad at balling.

...Infact, you don't even have to ball for it to be effective, even if you're using spirits/minions, because they ball for you. Mark of Pain is the best skill in the game. If you took JI, you wouldn't get much return for losing MoP, Barbs and OoP. Which is more than 20% penetration...

It's also not "free" 20% pen. It's a skill slot with damage conversion.

Don't you people get it already...

MoP is adjecant range. Which means that to make it worth your while you pretty much need to have all the mobs grouped up quite tighly.

And not only this is impractical, time consuming and strait up a pain in open field, but your RoJs, Splinter, WWattack and E surge would be more than enough to wipe them out.

So yeah, MoP is a waste because when mobs are spread its a waste, and when mobs are stacked, its overkill.

Also i would have to pump the curse line, thats 12 attributes when i could get another mesmer instead of the second necro (assuming i would still take the AOTL MM) and have superior dmg and utility.

So yeah, this is why IJ is better, you don't have to sacrifice attribute points, a hero slot and effort for the THEORETICAL gain which might or might not happen.

DiD i mention that it has a 20 sec recharge and is rendered worthless when removed?

You have no right to tell anyone to do anything. CB

AndrewSX · Jun 03, 2011, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Mop is a quite controversial skill cause his effectiveness may vary from:
less than 0(put on a single, isolated mob) to the Manly Spike(all balled, put it on a non-monk mob, 100b+splinter+WWA=insta-kaboom).

So, if you don't micro it at all it is a waste of a slot.
If take care (like Jack for example) to micro, ball and then manually cast, gain significant power.

Then sure, as you say, when things are balled Splinter+AoE (Roj,foc,esurge-whatever)+ 100b can easily do the job. But is the same reasoning behind take 3Roj instead of 2+SoS: is back-up.
If something goes wrong, you have a 3rd roj to fire.
If that one is on cooldown/rupted/miss the ball, there's mop.
And with the power he gains from balls, 1 skill slot (and non-elite) is a fair price.

P.S:and if the mop isn't enough too (and say when proper balls aren't powned by 3roj+100b+splinter+mop), shelther+UA keeps you alive. But you're doing something wrong if you have this scenario...

HigherMinion · Jun 03, 2011, 03:56 PM // 15:56

It's not controversial in the context of THIS thread. It's a build designed for balling/spanking. MoP lives here, it's at it's best here. You can't really dispute it unless you are bad at balling. (I think, in which case, you should run something else.)

AndrewSX · Jun 03, 2011, 04:19 PM // 16:19

You misunderstood: when i said that mop is "controversial" i meant just that w/o proper playstyle/micro, is a waste of a slot.

Expecially for the c-spacer average (warrior) player, cause the expressed power scales with balling frequency/ability.

If you tank and spank as main tactic, and need fast and hard-hitting AoE for the latter (like in this team), Mop shines.

hunter · Jun 03, 2011, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Ok, since basically its not getting through to people, lets try this.

Back at the OP's build, would you really want to take a shitty N/Rt healer with BiP, curses and resto attributes (not to mention some in SR) over a pure healer, like UA monk, my AOTL necro, or even my variant of RoJ. 4 Attributes, no runes to push resto past 12, etc

Remember that MoP perse can be ok, however having to incorporate a hero with a max, or near max curse line to make it effective is not worth the gain.

Now lets hope common sense allows you to see past ideal scenarios where you groups up mobs tightly and you make em go boom, i don't wanna have another arguiment like the one in the "advanced warrior" thread where even EFJ at the end accepted his build was not that great.

Stop trying to be purposely disruptive

Elfblade · Jun 03, 2011, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Bip can easily be run at an attribute of 3 blood magic and still be a good filler elite for a n/rt. That way curses can be higher, resto does not need to be higher than 12 as there is plenty of healing and passive defence to cover for a tank n spank setup.

Essence Snow · Jun 03, 2011, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Since this thread is about roj...isnt balling aggro a given...hence y mop is good in conjunction? If running any sort of a physical along with roj it would be sorta couterintuitive not to bring mop as both shine when aggro is balled.

EFGJack · Jun 03, 2011, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Heroes #6 and #7 are still a bit shady and they don't belong in the build - in the same sense as the ROJers and ST do, but I haven't had the time to play on with different ideas. Either way, as some of the heroes are set atm they do require an energy battery of sorts. I need to check on if they can live with BR some time.
MoP Vs. JI is a valid arguement, but if you play with Hundred Blades you can have both without losing much - as long as your build doesn't purely rely on MoP damage. Razah can carry JI without having any issues in his current setup; Olias needs more thought and I rather not build around minions as they're more often messing things up than being of any use - to me.

I'll get around updating the build over the weekend (tm)

thetwistedboy · Jun 03, 2011, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Mmmk. First after my testing of the build in a few vanquishes and dungeons, the earth nuker's energy is half after one fight and zero if earth attunement gets stripped. A mesmer with panic/Esurge/PI/Whatever Other Elite would be a better choice, especially considering elemental damage really isn't a great thing in HM.

The BiP is also worrying me when I play, just seeing the health spike down to almost nothing every few seconds.

Showtime · Jun 03, 2011, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwistedboy

Mmmk. First after my testing of the build in a few vanquishes and dungeons, the earth nuker's energy is half after one fight and zero if earth attunement gets stripped. A mesmer with panic/Esurge/PI/Whatever Other Elite would be a better choice, especially considering elemental damage really isn't a great thing in HM.

The BiP is also worrying me when I play, just seeing the health spike down to almost nothing every few seconds.

I believe that elem is for the kds. Bip should help alot. I got rid of earth elem. Im testing wanderlust/earthbind nec rit(every kd lasts 3 secs).

33% health per bip. Be nice if there was a low hp hero bip build that didn't require too much microing.