Curse

EFGJack · Jun 01, 2011, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwistedboy

@hunter
Actually... I tend to be rather narrow viewed at times and I just pulled an all nighter... Nevermind. I see your point with the 3rd RoJ being overkill. SoS could help out a bit with cleanup if there was scatter or not everything balled. Or you didn't ball. I guess it's point of preference.

For me, I'd stick with the 3rd RoJ just because I have serious doubts about the 'amazing dps' of a single SoS without painful bond, so I think the 3rd RoJ would just serve the team better.

before I posted this I did give it a thought if I rather bring a SoS instead of ROJ. I will edit the hero later today and add an alternative skill bar with SoS, and Restoration abilities.

thetwistedboy · Jun 01, 2011, 07:16 AM // 07:16

If you want to give it a try sometime today, here's the code for the dwayna healer. I'll be doing that in a few hours... need some sleep.

OgCjwyq26OvX9LAY+SgVvkbEM

I just put a +2 mysticism on the headpiece, +2 earth prayers, and +1 wind prayers.

Optional slot should be Imbue Health, Release Enchantments, Mystic Healing(not good unless you have aegis chains or orders, obvious reasons), or some other flash enchantment.

FoxBat · Jun 01, 2011, 07:34 AM // 07:34

12 resto and spirit transfer as your only spell (no imbue) makes for a little better spike catching on dwayna. Rest of the bar is meditation and enchantments, no energy issues I find.

Showtime · Jun 01, 2011, 09:22 AM // 09:22

yep, like your rojway builds for a while now. mines are different, but seem to work well just about anywhere.

went thru several lineups.. started with 3 rojers, 2 rits SOS SOGM, necro rit healer mm, nec rojer, and whoever i was using. really hard to mess up with this build. then swapped in mesmers, bip paras tof, unsteady ground elem, etc. i found that minions and spirits make it nearly impossible to die when set up right, but they can slow me down.

rojway is more flexible than discrordway etc. was using 5-6 pets for my pet-ray build. worked fine in most areas, but the pets seem to tax my st rit. if the ai gets a lil better with pets, i'll go back to it.

now testing 3 monk rojs, st rit (thx adding dulled weapon now that there won't be energy issues) , pi mesmer, nec rit healer with icy veins and 2nd copy of binding chains, nec roj mm, with my vos derv w sy. 2 of the monks run mostly smites and one prot smites. nice that sabs nec rit healer is still going strong and allows me to run 3 smite monks.

might try fit back in a bip para or bip rit, switch all 3 monks to monk/mes with staff (bip hero seems to only bip staffs) with Arcane mimicry, that could get rojs off a lil more frequently than 40/40s and keep them powered up better.

hunter · Jun 01, 2011, 11:05 AM // 11:05

quick question, how do you get to display the skill icons in there

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Are you playing in NM?

16 Splinter is 53 to each foe and WW is only +20 damage over 1 attack.

16 Smiting Roj is 48 x 5 + 7s of burning to each foe which is equivalent to 48 x 5 + 98 = 338 damage.

You also have other factors adding in to the AoE

Splinter weapon hitting the same foe a few times depending on ball.
Ancestral rage
Judge's insight making the WW dmg unmitigated
Mesmer AoEs (i do carry one or 2)
1-2 RoJ dmg depending on the situation.
Minions exploding here and there
Spirit dmg.

As you see, you only need 2-3 of these to wipe out the regular mob. and in most situations there are more than 2 flying around.

Daesu · Jun 01, 2011, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

You also have other factors adding in to the AoE

Splinter weapon hitting the same foe a few times depending on ball.
Ancestral rage
Judge's insight making the WW dmg unmitigated
Mesmer AoEs (i do carry one or 2)
1-2 RoJ dmg depending on the situation.
Minions exploding here and there
Spirit dmg.

As you see, you only need 2-3 of these to wipe out the regular mob. and in most situations there are more than 2 flying around.

You forgot to add RoJ into your AoE damage.

The point I was trying to make is, if enemies are balled up, you probably need more than just 16 chann splinter + a Wirlwind attack to wipe them in HM, despite what you said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

If enemies are balled up, all you need to wipe em is 16 chann splinter + a Wirlwind attack. 3 RoJs are overkill

hunter · Jun 01, 2011, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Well yeah, otherwise you would only been needing a warrior and splinter weapon no? My point is that if enemies are balled up, due to all the AoE you are constantly throwing around, as well as the random dmg coming from your heroes, the mobs will go "boom" in 2-3 sec.

Balling them up, snaring them, microing "brace yourself" on you and manually casting RoJ takes too damn long and too much effort.

On my war its like
"leeroy" up to a group,
WW,Sun and moon slash,
dead mobs.
Heroes wipe out the straggler.
profit

Oh ya, you also have the random RoJ in there, when they manage to cast it on the right stationary target, needless to say i don't bother microing it, smiters are there for SnH, Bath;s spirit, judges insight, and the occasional smite hex/condition which helps a ton on a frontliner, free dmg, yo

Snarers, 2x BiP, 3x RoJ, too much, yo

Now, is there a way to display skill icons on these boards? im too lazy to DL pawned

Aria Frost · Jun 01, 2011, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

Now, is there a way to display skill icons on these boards? im too lazy to DL pawned

Nope. AFAIK it's not currently possible. Only pics or template codes. BTW if you're so lazy to DL pawned just click here.

hunter · Jun 01, 2011, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Ok here we go:

This is a more practical RoJway for a warrior. Has massive AoE, single target, interrupts, single target and party wide prots, minion and spirit walls, Save yourselves in to deal with hairy situations, AoE healing, single target healing

As far as insigmias go, i like my heroes in the 45-50 energy area, more is too much, so once you have that much due to weapon feel free to slot in armor or HP insigmias.

thetwistedboy · Jun 01, 2011, 11:34 PM // 23:34

@hunter, It looks great for C-spacer. Spirits and minions don't mean much with the Bodyblocking/cornerblocking tank n spank style.

I would not run that warrior bar btw... YMLaD + 3 other energy skills. Kinda energy intensive, I'd say. Armor of Unfeeling is also a pretty bad idea in my experience. Heroes only use it when the spirits take damage and it won't affect newly summoned spirits. It's kind of a waste to me unless you micro it.

AeonDemigod · Jun 02, 2011, 12:26 AM // 00:26

IM running something similar, mostly EFGJack Builds
The first Necro Elite I switch around

Daesu · Jun 02, 2011, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Based on Jack's recent builds, I thought his 7-heroes ROJ build is going to be closer to this:

Obviously he surprised me.

Instead of a mesmer he has an ele. He also has a dedicated healer now.

thetwistedboy · Jun 02, 2011, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Well yeah, otherwise you would only been needing a warrior and splinter weapon no? My point is that if enemies are balled up, due to all the AoE you are constantly throwing around, as well as the random dmg coming from your heroes, the mobs will go "boom" in 2-3 sec.

Well. Yeah. That's the point of this team.

Quote:

Balling them up, snaring them, microing "brace yourself" on you and manually casting RoJ takes too damn long and too much effort.

No. It actually isn't. And It speeds things up considerably.

Quote:

On my war its like
"leeroy" up to a group,
WW,Sun and moon slash,
dead mobs.
Heroes wipe out the straggler.
profit

I don't know if you noticed, but we are aware of how you like to play your warrior based on your previous posts. That is not how we play ours. Stop saying your teams are better than this one. You play a completely different way than EFGJack does and your teams are obviously going to be different and incorporate things such as minions and spirits. They are beneficial to your team, not necessarily to this one.

Quote:

Now, is there a way to display skill icons on these boards? im too lazy to DL pawned

If there was, other people would've done it. So. No. There isn't.

hunter · Jun 02, 2011, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwistedboy

@hunter, It looks great for C-spacer. Spirits and minions don't mean much with the Bodyblocking/cornerblocking tank n spank style.

I would not run that warrior bar btw... YMLaD + 3 other energy skills. Kinda energy intensive, I'd say. Armor of Unfeeling is also a pretty bad idea in my experience. Heroes only use it when the spirits take damage and it won't affect newly summoned spirits. It's kind of a waste to me unless you micro it.

its why you have balthazar spirit on your warrior. To cover the energy expenses.

Armor of unfeeling can make a difference some of the time, its there in case the hero feels like using it.

And rememberer, i don't cornerblock or micro heroes every god damn pull, so its why minions are there.

in addition, minions make good bombs and because SY is going to be there depending on the situation, enemies will collapse on the minions, making them even more effective bombs.

There is a reason i put shouts over to the MM, other then making minions move faster, since shouts require no cast time this setup maximizes the time the hero will spend putting up deathnovas. SO yeah, lots of booms.

Again, give the build a try, through its common sense really...

aspi · Jun 02, 2011, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

Ok here we go:

This is a more practical RoJway for a warrior. Has massive AoE, single target, interrupts, single target and party wide prots, minion and spirit walls, Save yourselves in to deal with hairy situations, AoE healing, single target healing

As far as insigmias go, i like my heroes in the 45-50 energy area, more is too much, so once you have that much due to weapon feel free to slot in armor or HP insigmias.

hmm with some minor differences that's almost what I run with my war. I hate microing and I dont think I will ever be good at it. Only thing I see is that the ineptitude mes has an energy problem where the esurge has none. Could be that norgu is just a programmed idiot.

Anaraky · Jun 02, 2011, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

hmm with some minor differences that's almost what I run with my war. I hate microing and I dont think I will ever be good at it. Only thing I see is that the ineptitude mes has an energy problem where the esurge has none. Could be that norgu is just a programmed idiot.

Heroes just don't use Arcane Conundrum effectively by themselves.

Showtime · Jun 02, 2011, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

Microing heroes at the back so you ball enemies takes more time, and more effort compared to running in and AOEing the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO out of things.

You have no clue what you are talking about.

no micro setup > micro intensive setup

I know its hard to believe, but your warrior idol is not the best build maker out there.

So how long you been running your roj team and where'd you get the idea to run roj? It could be from.. jacks old thread. Hard to say since I didn't see your roj build before, but we all seen jacks.

I don't like your build. No imagination. Only 2 rojs? SOSer instead. Aotl and minions = waste of elite or micro AoTL and you have a free slot. Do you need that 2nd mesmer cuz it takes so long to kill stuff. Is that death pact sig? lmao. You made a shit build. RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO all, any 12 yr old who can read guru could do better.

That's what you sound like to me.

No one cares if you don't want to micro. That doesn't take anything away from EFGjacks build. He plays his way. You play yours. If time is an issue, his team is faster. No doubt about that. Just cuz you lack the ability to micro heros or your big ego doesn't give you the right to troll. Learn how to express ideas without putting others down. Learn that just because people do things differently doesn't belittle the way you do things.

Yeah, what?

EFGJack · Jun 02, 2011, 01:33 PM // 13:33

There are several builds that are very effective and require little player interaction. These builds rely on Spirits and Minions to tank the damage thrown at the group while said minions and spirits deal DPS that not many player builds can touch-- and even when they do, they only do DPS while the Spirit Lord is able to heal well while maintaining that DPS. We all know these builds exist and they have existed for years. There would be little point for me to post a build that has 2 Rays, Spirits and Minions and declare myself genius. And even then it's only a variant of well-known powerhouse builds: It brings nothing new to the table.

This build may not be as foolproof or as relaxed as the builds with minions and spirits, but that does not automatically rule out it's effectiveness or viability. I will argue that if one is willing to put in the effort, he will find this build very effective in any 8-man area, including DoA and UW Hard Modes. Only the players' own ability and knowledgeis the roof in the elite zones. I guess the same can be said about the Spirit, Minon, Mesmer builds that pop up five times aday on these forums, but it doesn't make the other builds any less viable.

Bottom line is that Spirit & Minion builds are very good and powerful and exceptional in the sense that they require little interaction from the player considering their effectiveness. And that they are not the only builds in this game. One can run 3 Necro Assassin warp-touchers coupled up with a Dwayn Dervish, ST Ritualist and Searing Flames Elementalists and quite possibly vanquish any area they can enter with 7 heroes. Some players have become blind to any other build than the one they deem the best. And then there's the players who's all about Min/Maxing. And the players who are all about Min/Maxing but yet refuse to micro... More about that below -->

Edit: Point is, if someone runs an earth elementalist instead of an AOTL necro after clearing every area under Hard Mode without consumables, so what? A little change in the winds at that point is always good.

To micro or not to micro

The argument “It’s extra work, therefore I won’t do it” is an argument I won’t take seriously. Let me explain the why:

As a warrior, have you ever dreamed of the ability to bring Smite Hex, Splinter Weapon and Ancestors’ Rage? But you didn’t because you just can’t use them effectively. Or have you ever watched your character suffer from Blurred Vision or Blind and Mind Freeze and observed that Dunkoro’s there at full energy wanding away and not using Smite Hex and Smite Condition on you, and refused to use Smite Hex and Condition manually because it’s extra work and not one of your own abilities? What if you could create a character that you could modify and add additional, special skill slots that you can equip with skills from any profession, any attribute at a maximum rank of 16, regardless of what profession you play – only at the expense of skill slots being withdrawn from your heroes? Would you increase your skill slots from 8 to 10, or 16 in order to bring a Smite Hex and Smite Condition that do not hinder your own ability to play while they activate?

Now with seven heroes, you can equip your team with 64 skills, and the majority of the players only uses 8 on a common basis.
When I invite 7 heroes to the group I don’t see 8 skill bars, I see 64 skill slots and the ability to use them at will. Most players only see the 8 skill slots in the middle of their screen when they leave an outpost to complete a Z bounty, and only use those 8 skills. What if you saw more? What if there were 10 skill slots in the middle of the screen – would you utilize these additional skill slots at the expense of your heroes? Because there are 64 skill slots you can utilize. Give it some thought and ask yourself if it’s difficult to use skills 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8? Then consider if you’d be willing to operate two or more additional skills in order to do something you’ve always wanted to – no more lazy Dunkoro, or picky Razah not using Ancestors’ Rage on you with only one surviving foe.

A player who refuses to micro Smite Hex and Ancestors’ Rage can be compared to a player who refuses to create a character with 2 additional skill slots, just because it’s extra work.

My 2 cents.

Morte66 · Jun 02, 2011, 01:53 PM // 13:53

I think some RPG players, people who grew up on Baldur's Gate and what have you, have a (perhaps subconscious) attitude of "I am a thinker and planner, not some twitch gamer; if I liked twitch I'd be playing Counterstrike". These are people who'll spend ten hours working out a build and ten minutes tweaking it for the next area before leaving town, but they won't use ten clicks to micro Smite Hex during the mission.

I'm like that. I've soloed Baldur's Gate on multiple characters, but I didn't finish the Witcher. I had to drag myself kicking and screaming into GW micro. These days I'll click a few hero skillbar icons before/after a fight and use the few I can hotkey on my numpad during it. That's my limit.

Damn "action RPGs" are taking the RPG world over. I wonder what GW2 will be like.

Daesu · Jun 02, 2011, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

No judges insight? Sadface

And its closer to my build, and yes i have a big ego.

Lol...you wish. The build was derived from one of Jack's older posts which I took notice here:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=132

I expected him to continue using 2 mesmers because of his RoJ build above and his advanced warrior build here:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...85&postcount=1

One major difference between the build I posted and yours is that mine does not include minions. Without the need for a MM, my build is not affected in low corpse areas and my heroes do not lag behind while waiting for Death Nova to be cast. This means I can move faster especially with 2 "Fall Back!" instead of just 1 FB in yours.

Also mine does not include Judge's Insight and Jack also did not bring Judge's Insight when clearing Majesty's Rest.

Lastly, there are a few issues with your build:

1. Putting Protective Spirit on the ST defensive rit bar is too defensive and too energy intensive. Furthermore, unless you micro (which you claimed you don't

) the hero can be too busy keeping up spirits or other spells and not cast PS when you need it most. Also, your Boon of Creation does not help with PS energy management when your team is in trouble and your hero has to keep casting PS.

2. Heroes do not use Signet of Creation well. This is most obvious when out of battle and spirits are gone, the hero would keep casting SoC without spirits around just because he is low on energy, even though it does nothing without spirits close by.

3. MoP > Judge's Insight in most general areas. On the other hand, since you probably c-space everything, MoP does not fit your playstyle and you can't benefit from it as much as Jack's builds can.

4. You have no team wide blocking to protect your squishies which is a big problem if you don't aggro manage. Displacement is a better choice than Union. 15 damage reduction is not a big deal in HM. Union itself usually lasts long enough even without ST, but since you are using ST why waste it on Union?

5. No cracked armor?

6. Your warrior build is still too energy intensive and is probably more suitable to go with a discordway team build.

7. Mine has Blood Bond and Dark Fury, yours don't, which means that my warrior gains adrenaline much faster than yours. They are not necessary skills but they are nice to have.

8. "Never Surrender!" does not affect minions anymore. It used to due to a bug, but that has been fixed.

9. That general build is standard and has been around for a long time with contributions from myself and many others on this forum.