Curse

Vernphos · Jan 08, 2012, 12:19 AM // 00:19

So I've been playing a Discord Way build for awhile now. I really like its flexibility (damage and heals/minions).

So before the 1/6 update, I was thinking it would be a total 'no brainer' to just switch everything over to elemental damage and drop out the Discord.

I'm not so sure anymore.

For sure, monster elementalists got a serious boost. A shatterstone using mob can cause a ton of pain.

But does that mean that three shatterstone eles can beat out three discords? Ele damage got something like a 40% boost..but did even that make up the difference to the good armor ignoring spells?

I could argue that discord requires more setup (condition and hex) than Shatterstone but to just look at the numbers (at 15 skill level):

Discord

110 damage for 5 energy, 2 second recharge. About 3 casts in 10 seconds for 330 total. 15 energy

Shatterstone

Hits say 4 people 100+400 = 500 damage @ 60 armor, 10 energy spent.

or 350 @ 80 armor. Both over about 10 seconds (2+8 recharge)

If we hit only 3 people: 100+300 = 400 damage @ 60 armor

or 282 @ 80 armor

Pretty close eh? Or am I missing something with the new armor rules?

Necros still have incredible energy management and that may trump everything. Also consider that the discord nec can heal and summon minions, which arguably frees up your other characters to take more damaging skills.

You could argue (correctly) that the ele can cast other spells (or interupts) while Shatter is recharging. The necro at this point is constantly casting.

So which way is everyone leaning? Is it full speed ahead with three eles in our 7H builds? Or are we just modifying our playstyles to account for the new boosts?

There are obviously ele spells I did not account for, as well as Icy veins, which people were expecting to make a huge appearance...

What do you all think?

Rhershy8 · Jan 08, 2012, 01:29 AM // 01:29

I'm suprised people are still using discord. It's quite out-dated and there are better options out there like rit and mezway. I've tried 3 shatterstone eles in comparison to my panic+inept+esurge mesmers and concluded eles are still inferior. Not only do the 3 mesmers deal more damage but they provide loads of shutdown. I'm interested to hear others' comparisons to discord though.

Kunder · Jan 08, 2012, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Discord is widely acknowledged to be crap because it is crap.

Elemental damage is pretty good, on par or above mesmer damage with the better builds.

Cracked armor makes them especially better, popular ways of applying it come best from mesmer or necro builds. Necromancer and Mesmer builds also have other highly effective support skills, Eles are generally all damage (though some sporadic blind/weakness isn't bad).

So, lots of eles + cracked armor spreader is your best damage and fastest clear times. Lots of Mesmers/Rits/Necromancers will still be pretty fast and be make you somewhat safer because they do more shutdown/interruption/hexes/etc. Things like Panic/ST/MM hordes carry you through things that Eles can't quite kill fast enough to stop them killing you.

Personally, I'm finding the new Power Build to be 1x AP player, 1x Fevered Dreams mesmer, as much support/healing/mitigation as you need to stay alive (for most areas this is 1 monk, for harder areas add 1 ST or 1 MM), the rest SF eles. AP player primes Fevered Dreams with AoE deep wound/cracked armor/daze/cripple/whatever else you like, SF eles go to town like its 2006 again. That said, this build can get much weaker or even useless against some specific enemies that are very strong vs fire, especially destroyers who are immune to burning and therefore take exactly 0 damage from SF. Watch out for those.

Icy veins WOULD be really nice if hero AI used it better. Currently they wait until an enemy is almost dead to start using it when they should be spamming it everywhere until all enemies are covered. Deathly Swarm is a pretty damn nice skill though, non-elite too. If IV got the AI fixed then 2x IV/DS MMs would definitely be on the table, until then IMO stick to OoU/AotL.

Venganza · Jan 08, 2012, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Discord is widely acknowledged to be crap because it is crap.

^^ Indeed

I use a single hero MM with 19 points death magic (11 minions) [aura+mas], and lots of mesmers

Discord blows totally these days.

Vernphos · Jan 08, 2012, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venganza

^^ Indeed

I use a single hero MM with 19 points death magic (11 minions) [aura+mas], and lots of mesmers

Discord blows totally these days.

So discord is crap eh? I am behind the times.

It works pretty well for me in most areas (DoA, UW) in HM.

Hmm, I have wanted to try the 3 mez build though. Maybe I will give it a shot.

Still seems like my original Q, about the HM armor, is still open for debate.

Kunder · Jan 08, 2012, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vernphos

So discord is crap eh? I am behind the times.

It works pretty well for me in most areas (DoA, UW) in HM.

Hmm, I have wanted to try the 3 mez build though. Maybe I will give it a shot.

Still seems like my original Q, about the HM armor, is still open for debate.

Literally hundreds of builds work in all HM areas of the game. Power Creep has gotten to the point where "good" builds are distinguished from the "bad" ones that by how quickly you can alt-tab out of guild wars to read facebook or w/e and leave the heroes to finish the battle.

knockturnal · Jan 08, 2012, 07:36 AM // 07:36

I run 3 discord 3 mes and a buffbot para. I have zero issues doing anything in HM, and it's still very much a 'set it and forget it' mentality. A lot of people dislike discord; to each their own, but it still works really really well.

Been curious about the eles and perhaps trying physical DPS since armor isn't absurd any longer.

Jeydra · Jan 08, 2012, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Literally hundreds of builds work in all HM areas of the game. Power Creep has gotten to the point where "good" builds are distinguished from the "bad" ones that by how quickly you can alt-tab out of guild wars to read facebook or w/e and leave the heroes to finish the battle.

But DoA HM isn't one of them.

That said, if you can post a screenshot of a DoA HM clear (any area except Veil, which is the easiest) or UW HM (which I don't know how to do without knocklock) sans consumables but using Discord, I want to see it.

As for this thread, I'm leaning to armour-ignoring damage at the moment, but we'll see.

bhavv · Jan 08, 2012, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Armour ignoring has always been better and still is. The reason why it works isnt based on whether it does more or less DPS, in any case the differecnes between armour ignoring and elemental damage are meaningless.

It works because it works on everything regardless of its armour, plus the armour ignoring classes can fit far much more shutdown onto their skill bars than elementalists can.

Elementalsits have become a lot more viable now, but they wont ever overtake the universal usefulness of the armour ignoring lasses plus their shutdown and damage mitigation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristlebane

Personally I think eles are good enough now so you can choose what you like better. Stop thinking all 'leet' and what kills 0.1s faster, go with what feels more fun to play.

Same here. I'm going to be using 6-8 elly teams because I simply enjoy using them, even if I find that me / ne / rt is better.

Bristlebane · Jan 08, 2012, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Personally I think eles are good enough now so you can choose what you like better. Stop thinking all 'leet' and what kills 0.1s faster, go with what feels more fun to play.

dasmitchies · Jan 08, 2012, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Armor-ignoring, period. The adjustments to HM made Ele a little better however, there is still no balance to level differential damage and Eles still have a disadvantage against warriors and rangers plus maybe other Ele. To add insult, minions actually do some damage because of the armor changes now. Physicals do more damage as well. Even the changes to Ele elites had a yawning effect, they just broke RA for now. The fact is, burning additions to elites are useless because monster have more health. The double target elites are gimmicky and under-perform when compared to other builds. You know what I changed? I took ancestor's rage off my rit bar because they nerfed it and added a heal. Mesmers, rits, and necros still rule because they can shut-down, heal, damage and provide meat shields. Elementalist's can't even do 1 right. Want more proof? The developers claimed they changed the casting speeds of some spells to 1.5 sec to help the ele. Actually, they knew mesmers can abuse elemental spells better than elementalists and had to change the speed because at 2 seconds fast casting affects all spells. The long awaited update was as boring as I thought. Maybee some new farming builds come from this, but I doubt any more useful what is available now.

Daesu · Jan 08, 2012, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Armour ignoring has always been better and still is. The reason why it works isnt based on whether it does more or less DPS, in any case the differecnes between armour ignoring and elemental damage are meaningless.

I am disappointed to hear that. I haven't had as much chance to play and test things out this weekend as you guys.

Using the Mist Form build from Chthon, my ele team was doing so well in HM that it almost seems overpowering, even though I haven't tried it in the elite areas yet. Also I didn't rune them up properly as I don't intend to invest until I am convinced that the build is better than my current ones.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 08, 2012, 08:45 PM // 20:45

As long as Ele E-Management remains so clumsy, armor ignoring damage will be better. I can see slotting one Ele in the Hybrid Meta of today, but anything more and you'll need to jump straight to 5 DPS/3 Backline or you'll lose a ton of effectiveness.

Vernphos · Jan 08, 2012, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

As long as Ele E-Management remains so clumsy, armor ignoring damage will be better. I can see slotting one Ele in the Hybrid Meta of today, but anything more and you'll need to jump straight to 5 DPS/3 Backline or you'll lose a ton of effectiveness.

This is kinda what it boils down to for me. Eles are just about equal in damage now (maybe) but necros are so much more versatile, due to soul reaping.

I even thought about 3 necro/eles...just to get good energy flow!

I tried the 3 necro/3 mez build last night...its pretty darn good...

Daesu · Jan 09, 2012, 02:56 AM // 02:56

I did some testing today, and my old Me & Rt build is still much stronger lol

http://www.gwpvx.com/User

arkSpirit

I'll have to wait for the rest of the ele update to re-eval this.

Swingline · Jan 09, 2012, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

As long as Ele E-Management remains so clumsy, armor ignoring damage will be better. I can see slotting one Ele in the Hybrid Meta of today, but anything more and you'll need to jump straight to 5 DPS/3 Backline or you'll lose a ton of effectiveness.

The trick is to not prolong fights. SF works great when its the only offensive spell on the eles bar... other than Glowing Gaze for energy management and Mark of Rodgort for sustained burning. Vqing with 3 SF is going to be up there with Mes/Ritway in the meta until you get to Destroyers.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 09, 2012, 11:35 AM // 11:35

It doesn't matter how long the fights are, the energy slowly dwindles from fight to fight until you need to take a regen break.

The in-house Ele E-Management barely breaks even for use with Ele spells; there's no room for utility unless you want to exacerbate the issue. Invoke was the (only) exception, and it still barely squeaked by. Eles are forced to run /Me (or Spirit Siphon) for additional management on top of the garbage 2-4 skills already required. Basically, your Eles are stuck stepping on the toes of Mesmers with bases that are already covered by said Mesmers. The other option is to run Blood Ritual, which isn't superb, or BiP, which is downright suicidal (esp. since it would most likely be on the healer).

You have to fold yourself in half, then turn yourself inside out just to provide the class with enough energy to do what other classes can do without the aid.

Summary of issues:
- Eles need to look for out-of-class energy management to be able to sport Utility. This leaves them with Channeling (Rit), Inspiration (Mes), and Smiting (Monk). Most parties already run a Rit, so Channeling is redundant. Inspiration E-Management will step on the toes of other Mesmers in the party (too many interrupts is bad). Smiting is alright, but screws with high returns on Glyph of Lesser Energy with all it's 5 energy spells.
- Eles need 3+ skills on a bar dedicated strictly for E-Management. Anything less will result in a net loss of energy and require idle time.
- Eles are completely screwed by interrupts or dying targets. They get 0 of the 30% attunement return. They are punished for losing and they are punished for winning.
- Eles energy management is strippable. It also doesn't pay for itself until about 2-4 casts under the effect.
- Due to the nature of a % return of energy costs, Ele E-Management fundamentally cannot net gain energy; it only prevents the caster from losing energy faster. Only when you combine Glyph of Lesser Energy (still a 100% reduction in cost, no gain) and an attunement will you net anything. The single energy returning spell in each elemental line blows valuable -cost on GoLE. Ele E-Management requires all these skills, then proceeds to get tangled up in them, trips, and hangs itself. Luckly, the skills that the E-Management is hanging from are crappy, so they break. The E-Management suffocates instead.
- Heroes are stupid. They cast without Attunements up, they use 5 energy spells with GoLE, and they think using Churning Earth on a single foe is acceptable. They miss Glowing Gaze, can't cover important enchantments, and ultimately fail at everything in every possible dimension.

I'm sure there's more but I'm running out of hours for sleep. If anyone at Anet cared about my opinions, I'd fix Ele heroes right up into great competitive PvE choices, but alas, as much as my pride DIES to say this, I am not so important. :P

Lanier · Jan 09, 2012, 04:31 PM // 16:31

I always take BiP in my caster 7H parties, and never have any problems with it. Its certainly not suicidal, even if brought on a resto healer (which is usually what I slot it on).

Daesu · Jan 09, 2012, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I always take BiP in my caster 7H parties, and never have any problems with it. Its certainly not suicidal, even if brought on a resto healer (which is usually what I slot it on).

Yes I do that too.

You can always have your heals on a different hero, but that doesn't mean that your BiPer would get healed on time when he needs it either. Having heals on the BiPer, helps to prioritize heals to himself more often, the BiPer is usually the one who has the lowest hp in the team during combat.

Furthermore, you can only flag 3 heroes individually so with 2 healers in my team, I have the option to flag my ST hero, my BiPer(healer 1), and my Channeling (healer 2) hero behind and out of immediate danger, when I anticipate a tough fight next.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 09, 2012, 08:47 PM // 20:47

It's all fine and dandy for VQs, but BiP isn't a good choice for Elite locations. Casters will immediately pick up on the large health loss and blow up the poor Necro. Besides, now you are spending an Elite just to open up Utility on the Eles (not to mention creating a possible need to flag Heroes every fight). It's all just so clumsy.