Curse

awry · Mar 31, 2011, 08:47 AM // 08:47

the drama in this thread has been highly entertaining. We need a sticky thread for mission/vanquish fastest times. It would be fun to see.

Cantos · Mar 31, 2011, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Just so I don't miss the deadline if we are continuing for some reason ...

I REALLY don't think I can get it down much more, although just scraping past the 8-minute mark is a possibility.

http://img151.imageshack.us/i/gw098i.jpg/
http://img846.imageshack.us/i/gw099.jpg/
http://img861.imageshack.us/f/gw100.jpg/
http://img846.imageshack.us/i/gw101.jpg/

Why is your time so good? Is it your build or the effort you put into playing it?

BrettM · Mar 31, 2011, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

It's more like S/D/M users are saying "Right hook is all you need, right hook is always best".

Perhaps some are saying that. Others are saying that "right hook is adequate to get the job done". It may not be "best" by any definition, but has some virtues that make up for any lack of technical perfection, being a team with high survivability that's easy to play and can be used in almost any area with no modification.

Calling S/D/M "gimped" or "fail" is just ridiculous exaggeration. So, somebody has a finely-tuned build that lets them do Raisu HM in 8-9 minutes? And S/D/M takes 15 or so? Big deal. 15 is more than fast enough to get masters on the mission. How often does anyone do Raisu that it's worth taking the time to set up a team build that squeezes out every last second of performance? Most players are quite happy to simply get the highest level of reward and move on.

HigherMinion · Mar 31, 2011, 11:33 AM // 11:33

I'd like somone to try the Raisu run using a physical hero based team. Faster than dcord?

@above; "Gimped" is anything that isn't optimal. They're right in calling it that.

Jeydra · Mar 31, 2011, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tried and Triumphed

"Tell you what let's have a fist fight but here's the catch you can only throw a right hook because of it's knockout power; however, I can throw any combination of punches I want" That's basically what I took from reading this challenge

Not exactly - I more or less swore off using Discord Necros in the original post. If I'd said the same thing about Rits I doubt I could've turned in any time nearly as fast.

Saying the build I used was targetted at Raisu HM is silly. I did fast runs of Gate of Madness and Hell's Precipice too, I just haven't uploaded the screenshots (but I did post the times, here in this thread). I agree S/D/M isn't "gimped" or "fail", however. It's just subpar.

@Cantos - both, I would say. Effort probably resulted in the biggest increase in speed, but build has an effect as well.

Judges please tell me if we're done?

BrettM · Mar 31, 2011, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Saying the build I used was targetted at Raisu HM is silly. I did fast runs of Gate of Madness and Hell's Precipice too, I just haven't uploaded the screenshots (but I did post the times, here in this thread). I agree S/D/M isn't "gimped" or "fail", however. It's just subpar.

Fair enough, and I wasn't targeting your build in particular. If anyone comes up with a team build that has the virtues that have made S/D/M so popular but has better performance, then it certainly deserves to become part of the new meta. I will be studying the candidates presented in this thread, because I'm certainly not married to S/D/M just because it was the first decent, non-merc candidate out the gate after the 7H update.

Daesu · Mar 31, 2011, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

Just post the team templates that need to be run and let AVERAGE people post times for Raisu. Each team build must be tested objectively for Raisu HM without micro, without skipping, killing all enemies that aggro. Take the average of, say, N runs (from N different people who might report their average times), and then finally compare which build is better.

Sigh, no one here knows how to analyze things scientifically.

That sounds like a smart suggestion.

This is suppose to be a build comparison thread, if someone can run Jeydra's build (screenshot already posted on this thread) for Raisu HM, then compare that against a S/D/M build, we would have a more accurate picture.

As it is now, there are too many variables that can greatly affect the time: 1. familiarity with the mission, 2. experience in micro-ing heroes, etc.

Also, depending on the difficulty of the mission, you can tweak your level of healing vs damage to optimize your build and Raisu HM is hardly in the same level as DoA Foundry HM. Builds that work best for Raisu HM, may not necessarily work well in the other elite areas.

Morte66 · Mar 31, 2011, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

From what I've seen so far, DSM actually does have pretty solid shutdown and damage potential. I think it's not proactive enough and most of the prot relies on minions... the other builds were effective immediately, but DSM started to plow when a minion army got brought up.

I've been making my own comparisons and I agree.

DSM is fragile at the start of an area then beefs up as the minions come on stream.

It has too much heal and not enough prot.

The shutdown is decent.

It has reasonable damage if you slant the /S/M part to AoE damage, and use Discord tacked onto the midline/backline as a secondary feature to focus fire on outliers and bosses. A good D/S/M team is M/S/D. This, I think, is the difference between 7 hero D/S/M and the old 3 hero + 4 hench Dway.

Not the best "meta" team I've used, not the worst.

Xenomortis · Mar 31, 2011, 03:00 PM // 15:00

On the "no micro" thing.
This isn't necessarily a sensible thing when comparing builds. Some people really do build to match their level of ability. If someone has a build that can really take advantage of their micro ability, then why should it be denied? It is most likely the build is designed to work with that micro.
What we have are examples of setups with a "high ceiling" of performance, but also a "low floor" and good players will push for the high ceiling and some are willing to pull in their micro abilities to get there and that influences their builds. Conversely, we have examples of higher floor builds (of which Discord is a historical example) but these typically (and quite rightly) have correspondingly lower ceilings.
You're asking that the builds be run close to the floor of their potential performance.

It really isn't sensible when comparing setups to insist on no-micro. When the builds are created, some people may hold their own ability in mind and that influences (sometimes greatly) their skill choices.

Look at it like this; if you wanted to compare the potential of a WoH-Prot hybrid bar and a bar laden with pure heals to be run in HM areas, would you insist they be run on a bad monk?

I think that highlights in some way, the futility of what is trying to be done.

Daesu · Mar 31, 2011, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

On the "no micro" thing.
This isn't necessarily a sensible thing when comparing builds. Some people really do build to match their level of ability. If someone has a build that can really take advantage of their micro ability, then why should it be denied?

It is not that the builds should be denied. I am not participating in the contest anyway and frankly I don't care who has the best mad skillz. Evidently there are lots of experienced players on this thread, good for them. But I am just interested in the best build. However, we should be made AWARE that the build requires micro to attain that level of performance. Just like what EFGJack has done on his "playing high end pve" thread.

Some players are more lazy than others, so they can make informed decisions on whether they are willing to play that way or not. It is pointless to show a build and time, then have someone use it without micro and it doesn't work as well for him.

BrettM · Mar 31, 2011, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You're asking that the builds be run close to the floor of their potential performance.

To me, this makes sense. For a build to be "meta" for general PvE, many players have to be willing to adopt it. Most players are going to be running whatever build they pick at close to the floor of its performance, because they just aren't capable of pushing a build to its peak or running a build that is more demanding, or because they're just too lazy to do what is required.

Why aren't Formula 1 cars meta for commuting to work, even though they are clearly capable of higher performance than the average Toyota? Because they are riskier and more demanding to drive, have higher maintenance costs, etc. Driving Formula 1 is something best left to the pros.

So, if the purpose of this whole exercise is to find new metas for general PvE, testing at the floor is the only way to find a build that the average player will adopt, making it meta.

Outerworld · Mar 31, 2011, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

To me, this makes sense. For a build to be "meta" for general PvE, many players have to be willing to adopt it. Most players are going to be running whatever build they pick at close to the floor of its performance, because they just aren't capable of pushing a build to its peak or running a build that is more demanding, or because they're just too lazy to do what is required.

Why aren't Formula 1 cars meta for commuting to work, even though they are clearly capable of higher performance than the average Toyota? Because they are riskier and more demanding to drive, have higher maintenance costs, etc. Driving Formula 1 is something best left to the pros.

So, if the purpose of this whole exercise is to find new metas for general PvE, testing at the floor is the only way to find a build that the average player will adopt, making it meta.

While a meta build should work without micro, asking someone who is capable of it not too makes little sense.

Daesu · Mar 31, 2011, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

While a meta build should work without micro, asking someone who is capable of it not too makes little sense.

That depends, if you see this as a contest of who has the best mad skillz heroway player that would make sense. If you see this as a contest between builds, that would not be very helpful.

If you want something that would actually benefit the community, do something like this:

With micro:
Best build and average time and with what primary class.

Without micro:
Best build and average time and with what primary class.

This way, people can decide how they want to play and adopt the best meta build for their playstyle.

I am not asking for the judges to deliver this. It doesn't even have to be on this thread (actually better that it be not on this thread with the flames). And afew players can try out the builds and give their input so we can average out their times.

Not my suggestion, the credit should go to mage:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

Just post the team templates that need to be run and let AVERAGE people post times for Raisu. Each team build must be tested objectively for Raisu HM without micro, without skipping, killing all enemies that aggro. Take the average of, say, N runs (from N different people who might report their average times), and then finally compare which build is better.

Sigh, no one here knows how to analyze things scientifically.

Xenomortis · Mar 31, 2011, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

To me, this makes sense. For a build to be "meta" for general PvE, many players have to be willing to adopt it. Most players are going to be running whatever build they pick at close to the floor of its performance, because they just aren't capable of pushing a build to its peak or running a build that is more demanding, or because they're just too lazy to do what is required.

When the purpose of a thread as stated in the OP is to debunk the claim that S/D/M is the best or fastest all round setup, it absolutely doesn't make sense.
When it later evolves into putting just putting various hero setups through the mill, it doesn't make sense either.
The thread never explicitly was about replacing the S/D/M meta; it was just to prove a point.

You're not instantly going to find the new meta build that'll replace S/D/M (if that ever happens).
For one, there's very little actually motivating that change. Historically there were several areas that many players might struggle in with H/H meta builds, with 7 heroes there should be very few (unless I give the average player more credit than I should). There are probably only a small number of instances in the game where the S/D/M premise outright fails and when the Underworld, the Deep, Urgoz's Warren and the Domain of Anguish were never supposed to be attempted solo, this isn't surprising. The Discord part presents the biggest weakness to versatility due to the reliance on minions so it may fail in a couple of other places (Shards of Orr, the Ooze Pit (although the latter is simple enough to brute force through I suppose)).

You don't find meta builds by actively looking for them. They come from the adaptation of strong setups and those are found when you don't enforce some rather arbitrary requirements.

And I strongly dislike letting bad players wallow in simple mediocrity just strong enough for success; I would much prefer people push for their own improvement so they may succeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

That depends, if you see this as a contest of who has the best mad skillz heroway player that would make sense. If you see this as a contest between builds, that would not be very helpful.

On my Necromancer I run a setup that depends greatly on the interaction between my build and the actions of my heroes. If my heroes didn't attack the target I was calling, or I simply didn't call a target or just did nothing, then the strength of my setup falls rapidly.
I hold that my setup is stronger than S/D/M but it very much depends on my build and my actions (although these actions are simple to perform).

The player matters in a build. The player is a strong influencing factor and if you were to attempt to remove him as a variable you're going to get, not so much erroneous, but irrelevant results. At what point do you draw the line?

aga · Mar 31, 2011, 04:15 PM // 16:15

So, I guess this 'challenge' is ending prematurely, since nobody else is willing to do some S/D/M times. There seems to be a lot of people defending S/D/M in other threads, but where are they in this one?! All talk and no action I guess.

Anyway I managed to get Raisu done in 9.47 with S/D/M, if anyone cares...

My opinion of S/D/M, is that it is a very viable build, it requires 0 micro'ing, and next to 0 player skill to use. Which is why a lot of people do use it, and this is fine, since the game is made up of primarily casual players who don't really care for speed. However if you are looking to push yourself, and get some fast times, you really should be looking past discord.

Morte66 · Mar 31, 2011, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Jeydra, would you mind posting the builds (including attributes and runes) for the first team you used? I'd like to give that a try. I aspire to being "average".

Voodoo Rage · Mar 31, 2011, 04:57 PM // 16:57

So what's the verdict on the "D" part of the team build? I'm still skeptical that Discord really offers that much other that ability to spike down a single target. It still seems like a more "Sabway"-ish approach to the necros would ultimately win out but I could be mistaken.

FoxBat · Mar 31, 2011, 05:01 PM // 17:01

I got 10:30 for Jedrya's invoke, and 10:45 for S/D/M. With more runs those times might change, and maybe invoke is better, but the times are too close to reflect a real build advantage to me, and more just my weak play skills. I would bet Jedrya could get close times if he put effort into S/D/M as well.

Still, when discord is at best on par with eles... you know something is wrong.

9:30 easy with 5x mesmer...

aga · Mar 31, 2011, 05:09 PM // 17:09

The only way to fairly test S/D/M against another build is for the ame person to run both, with no bias shown towards one of the builds. This will never happen, because there's a HUGE amount of 'elitism', oversized egos and snobery around PvE in GW.

mage767 · Mar 31, 2011, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

I hestiate to add to the general melee, but wouldn't Dragon's Lair HM without bonus be a good challenge. I know it's not considered particularly difficult, but at least you get a guaranteed set of effects to test the all-round utility of a team build......

I think this is a good mission overall because it challenges the player against core professions. However, someone can still rush in and kill bosses only so as to jump portals. But, I think it won't be that straight-forward.