Curse

aga · Mar 30, 2011, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Well all the builds for S/D/M are on PvX, yet I'm the only one who has bothered doing it, and the onyl skill i was microing was fall back. And you can't really give another team build to use against S/D/M, since the challenege was supposed to be anything/everything vs S/D/M.

So more people need to do S/D/M times, and come up with their own builds for the other side challenege, I'm guess anything without Discord is fine.

Life Bringing · Mar 30, 2011, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Bright, please calm down. I realize that you feel insulted, but lashing out isn't helping to get your point across. We all know that you can outtank jeydra in DoA. Similarly, we all know that jeydra is a better h/h player than you. This is obvious to everyone, and there really isn't any need for a contest to prove it. The fact that you've dragged this out over so many WoTs is kinda sad, and, while jeydra isn't innocent, much of the provocation has been supplied by you.

I'd be willing to supply the S/D/M control times if this contest is going anywhere. However, it appears that this contest is beginning to go in a new direction. I believe the easiest way to resolve this is for the people who were apart of the contest to each submit their build and allow a group of third party participants to use each build in the aforementioned areas. This takes the tactics variable out of the equation and allows a fair speed comparison to be made.

timbo_3101 · Mar 30, 2011, 06:53 PM // 18:53

With all due respect, why does Bright Star Shine outrank Jeydra or anyone in DoA? After criticising one and all for their (amazing) times and passing judgement from Pom Pom downwards, his claiming to be a member of a DoAsc guild is evidence that he outranks or can actually produce a 7H clear of DoA (HM)???

Familiarity with DoA is only one aspect of executing a full run, whereas by demonstrating a fundamental deficiency in technical ability, in constructing synergistic builds, in hero micro/management and in PvE tactics, he has lost all credibility in this forum. To say, as he himself has repeatedly boasted, that he would be capable of producing a 7H clear of DoA (HM) would be somewhat generous :P

[Nika] · Mar 30, 2011, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Would anyone here be so nice and explain me what exactly is meant with S/D/M?

Outerworld · Mar 30, 2011, 07:12 PM // 19:12

S/D/M = Spirit, Discord, mesway.

aga · Mar 30, 2011, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Spirit-way mes-way and discord build combined, 3 necro, 2 mes, 2 rit heroes.

[Nika] · Mar 30, 2011, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Ah ok.

Is 2 Rits and 2 Mes and 3 others allowed as non-S/D/M?

Outerworld · Mar 30, 2011, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Yes it is.

12chars

FoxBat · Mar 30, 2011, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

I believe the easiest way to resolve this is for the people who were apart of the contest to each submit their build and allow a group of third party participants to use each build in the aforementioned areas. This takes the tactics variable out of the equation and allows a fair speed comparison to be made.

I thought about this when running Raisu a few times with different builds. It's really the only way to sufficiently control for all variables, ensure you kill mobs rather than skip them, always use the same path, etc. But then you'd need people who are actually interested in determining the best build, rather than using buildwars as a means for flaunting e-peen, which seems to be more what this thread is about...

Arrogant Bastard · Mar 30, 2011, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Now, what did I ever do to you? Also, you know nothing about me, so please stay out of this.

@Jeydra, you might want to recall that I already admitted I suck at using heroes. So, keep bashing about it all you want, you're not proving anything. Show me the exact post where I stated that I am better at using heroes (in general) than you. Ohwait... So stop stroking your ego.

Anyway, on topic. I don't have time tonight, I actually shouldn't be on my laptop atm, but I will try using a diff build on Raisu, if you insist. I know that my teambuild sucked, because I didn't even take the time to properly make one, those were the first random 7 skillbars I slapped together in 5 minutes.

Also, I still think running a mission, where tactics are a major advantage, shouldn't show how well your build is. It shows how good you are, and last time I checked, this competition was started to see how good builds are. This would be saying the builds we use in DoASC are awesome in every aspect of the game, because we can do a 22min DoA with them, which is false, those builds are so fast because of tactic and player skill. Using those builds in, say, UW will most likely result in epic failure, or at least nothing good. So, can we either do something that shows the relevance of a build, rather than player skill (of which, when it comes to heroes, I lack plenty, which I never denied), or will we continue this silly contest the way it is? You keep saying a VQ is bad, but if you take the right area, it will in fact show perfectly how well your team build kill stuff. An area without patrols, silly groups or too much running. Just plain simple: kill that shit and be done with it.

You aren't communicating via PM, so I don't have to stay out of this.

I wish I didn't have to know anything about you, but you can't seem to stop dropping your not-so-subtle hints about your personal life.

Testing the builds with an average player isn't very viable. How do you decide on who is average? A subjective decision to what constitutes an average player will lead to subjective results.

On the other hand, creating a random sample test for these builds would take far too much time and effort. The simplest method is just to have a handful of volunteers try a s/d/m build vs a non-s/d/m build (I'd also do a test with micro-ing vs no micro-ing).

Bright Star Shine · Mar 30, 2011, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Well, if I may, Raisu HM isn't the best place in my opinion to test builds. I know mage suggested doing it without skipping, but tbh, it's not that great. If anything, I would either run GoM or Hell's, because there is more pressure there. Raisu is practically a walk in the park, in my case it might have been a slower walk, but it still was one. Only trouble with GoM is keeping the lich alive -ironically- when capping shrines, but that's just basic flagging.

Wenspire · Mar 30, 2011, 09:12 PM // 21:12

I would still suggest vloxen dungeon (with no 2nd level exploit) or selves. you pretty much cannot skip any groups and they are more at the calibre of challenging by being dual-classed enemies.

Frozen Ele · Mar 30, 2011, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Frozen Ele - that I think is a far better argument for Water Magic than all the arguments you've posted before, although 5/7 of the heroes you're using are almost the same as mine, lol.

Do you have a screenshot of the same build in Gate of Madness / Hell's Precipice?

Thanks, I chose to use so many similar heroes to make the trials more comparable; my normal set-up is different (no air eles, etc.).

Haven't worked on GoM/Hell's. My plan wasn't really to enter into the "competition" about S/D/M, but just do Raisu. With your astonishing time, I'll probably be focused on Raisu more so (to see if I can cut my time down), so I don't know if I have time for GoM/Hell's.

Jeydra · Mar 31, 2011, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Ele

Thanks, I chose to use so many similar heroes to make the trials more comparable; my normal set-up is different (no air eles, etc.).

Haven't worked on GoM/Hell's. My plan wasn't really to enter into the "competition" about S/D/M, but just do Raisu. With your astonishing time, I'll probably be focused on Raisu more so (to see if I can cut my time down), so I don't know if I have time for GoM/Hell's.

Well one of the things I see about your teambuild is a lack of Kaolai. You have two heroes carrying Rit heals, but no Kaolai. Considering how powerful the skill is and how well heroes use Kaolai, this is ... weird. Also considering how often Kaolai has saved my party from wipes, I'm inclined to conclude that your teambuild is fragile.

Raisu has one thing going for it in this department: it has Mhenlo and (in our case) Danika to mop up some of the damage. I don't know how significant they are, although I know that I survived Raisu + GoM + Hell's Precipice easily with scarcely any heals myself, so it's possible your build survives as well. But I'd like to see it.

@thread - it seems that at some point running more heals > running more damage, because heals lets you skip mobs better.

Also @thread - problem with getting me to use S/D/M is, if I'm aiming to prove S/D/M inferior, why can't I just AFK 30 minutes at the start of the mission? The same applies for any control 3rd party. If that 3rd party wants to bias the results towards or against any build, he can. Unless you trust me to push as hard with S/D/M as I did with other builds ...

@Life Bringing - lol, it wasn't obvious to him at first. To be fair, it wasn't obvious to me either. Like, if I were the one who had to use 2 offensive Monks, I would drop the heals from the Rit and run fewer (or no) heals on other characters, and tailor my offense accordingly. There's little guarantee that this setup would be significantly slower than the ones I used in this thread. I suspect it will be slower, but even if it is, it won't be by a lot, especially if one Monk is using UA. Of course though, I kind of grossly overestimated BSS's skill ...

@timbo - he probably can do it, he'll just run a SF Sin and micro a DoASC with a hundred different consumables to back him up. I don't think he can do it any other way, not until he gets better anyway.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 31, 2011, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Life Bringing - lol, it wasn't obvious to him at first. To be fair, it wasn't obvious to me either. Like, if I were the one who had to use 2 offensive Monks, I would drop the heals from the Rit and run fewer (or no) heals on other characters, and tailor my offense accordingly. There's little guarantee that this setup would be significantly slower than the ones I used in this thread. I suspect it will be slower, but even if it is, it won't be by a lot, especially if one Monk is using UA. Of course though, I kind of grossly overestimated BSS's skill ...

Assuming one's skill is estimated in how fast one can clear Raisu Palace HM? I think I missed something down the line, but the last time I checked I don't think people measure their abilities on this. What did go wrong is that you challenged me, a person who never uses heroes anyway, and if I do, I am satisfied if they get me from point A to point B, I don't care how fast they do it. This challenge was broken from the start, it's like challenging a really strong guy with a limp leg to a running competition. He can compete, for sure, but he'll be slow, because he's constraint by his leg, he might beat you at arm wrestling though, but you wouldn't challenge him to one.

Quote:

@timbo - he probably can do it, he'll just run a SF Sin and micro a DoASC with a hundred different consumables to back him up. I don't think he can do it any other way, not until he gets better anyway.

Yep. I could do it balanced, but to hell I'm spending 3h+ in there.

HigherMinion · Mar 31, 2011, 12:56 AM // 00:56

I vote highminion's idea was best... Just, throwing that out there.

What was the original intent of this thread anyway?

FengShuiDove · Mar 31, 2011, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Sooooo, so far I've actually got that S/D/M is about 3% faster than the two configurations I've run. The first was my DoA build, and the second was a hobbled together abuse of physical buffs including a Dwayna's Orders Derv, and Commandagon, and a R/P Spearchucker with some secondary Command. I did pick up drops (too ingrained in me to do so

), and there was one chest I opened in the DoA build run and two chests in the Physical build run. Although these differences are really minor. Oh, and lastly, I forgot to apply Strength of Honor to myself until about 7 minutes in, which, in a measurement of seconds, might make a difference

.

Times so far:

D/S/M - 13:20
DoA - 13:57
Phys - 13:51

The smallest difference is half a minute, over 13 minutes for about a 3.8% difference. I did die once in the D/S/M run -- I felt like the build had a lot more focus on spike healing, whereas the DoA build was incredibly proactive about prot with Soul Twisting instead of an MM. The Phys build likewise was actually very safe (much to my surprise).

From what I've seen so far, DSM actually does have pretty solid shutdown and damage potential. I think it's not proactive enough and most of the prot relies on minions... the other builds were effective immediately, but DSM started to plow when a minion army got brought up.

More timing to come! I'm definitely going to do some different kinds of areas, namely some with lack of corpses. Since minions can be run just as well with AotL or Jagged Bones, that will help isolate the damage from Discord itself and supporting skills rather than the strength of a minion army. I believe DSM really hinges on heavy corpse usage for damage mitigation and proactive rather than reactive healing/prot.

Tried and Triumphed · Mar 31, 2011, 05:04 AM // 05:04

"Tell you what let's have a fist fight but here's the catch you can only throw a right hook because of it's knockout power; however, I can throw any combination of punches I want" That's basically what I took from reading this challenge

Dusk_ · Mar 31, 2011, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tried and Triumphed

"Tell you what let's have a fist fight but here's the catch you can only throw a right hook because of it's knockout power; however, I can throw any combination of punches I want" That's basically what I took from reading this challenge

Well...you'd be wrong then. It's more like S/D/M users are saying "Right hook is all you need, right hook is always best". This thread is the "put up or shut up" challenge.

If you think the S/D/M players are at a severe disadvantage...well, then you're in the camp that thinks S/D/M is a gimped build.

Mouse at Large · Mar 31, 2011, 08:40 AM // 08:40

I hestiate to add to the general melee, but wouldn't Dragon's Lair HM without bonus be a good challenge. I know it's not considered particularly difficult, but at least you get a guaranteed set of effects to test the all-round utility of a team build......