Curse

EFGJack · Mar 30, 2011, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Some of the builds I see on here would completely fall apart in the harder dungeons. One hybrid healer + 1/2 Smiter are generally not enough for general play.

slightly OT here, but I have to make this comment: One healer & a smiter is enough for the harder dungeons - http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/3581/gw027.jpg - that's without SY, or consumables - and before anyone screams "ss or gtfo", I got the run recorded & partially uploaded to YouTube.

HigherMinion · Mar 30, 2011, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

So, want to enter under my terms, which dictate that you can do whatever the hell you want, which in my opinion is a lot more fair than telling people what they have to do, restricting their abilities and such so that you are more likely to win? Who's the best contestant now? The one that says: you can try to beat me in every way you can think possible, or the one that says "you can't do this, this, this, this, and especially not this" because he knows you will beat him if you do?

Sure, you can do whatever you want, but for fairness you have to play as the same profession

UnChosen · Mar 30, 2011, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

slightly OT here, but I have to make this comment: One healer & a smiter is enough for the harder dungeons - http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/3581/gw027.jpg - that's without SY, or consumables - and before anyone screams "ss or gtfo", I got the run recorded & partially uploaded to YouTube.

ST Rits + Stand Your Grand and half the team carry elemental resistance. When I made my post i had JUST one healer + one smiter in mind.

And before someone starts wasting their time making SS of them only using one healer + one smiter....I'll emphasize that I said GENERAL play. By that I mean that I'm no stressed that I could die any second.

HigherMinion · Mar 30, 2011, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Bright; you realise the reason you're not doing DoA, and especially not doing DoA as a tank sin, is because you're testing hero builds. Tanking holds no merit in PvE in the fashion you do while in DoA. All you need then are 6 RoJ heroes and a little partyheal. There is no room for error or robustness.

If you want to claim your excellence, start a new thread about your excellence.

Jeydra · Mar 30, 2011, 11:37 AM // 11:37

@Bright Star Shine - perhaps you need a reminder of why you got into this spat with me in the first place.

This started because of the Invoke Lightning change, which I argued was a nerf, hitting a niche for Elementalists in 7H situations. You thought it was absurd, arguing that the niche doesn't exist because Elementalists don't deal damage in HM anyway. You further wrote that Monks deal more damage, that my heroes carried me through Foundry HM, that I'm not a 7H God, that if Elementalists did so much damage why don't people use them, and that if Nightfall has been out for four years, why haven't the builds I developed become meta yet? In short, you did all you could to convince me that you're better than me at Guild Wars.

We put this to test, and your times were way behind mine. What's more, your screenshots showed that you don't know how to make builds. The teambuild you used for Raisu has multiple flaws, immediately obvious to the trained eye. It showed your lack of skill to the point that I immediately concluded you have no chance of beating my 7H times anywhere, with any primary profession even, if Shadow Form / Vow of Silence / Obsidian Flesh / Spellbreaker / consumables are banned.

And now, after being completely destroyed in this time trial, you say that you can DoA tank better than me.

Very likely, you can. But it doesn't matter. You completely leaped out of the ring and are fighting an imaginary opponent. My original statement that Elementalists can deal damage in HM was directed for general 7H use + caster primary, and I believe my screenshots have proven that fairly conclusively. Your ability to tank DoA simply isn't relevant here. It's like saying that you're the best GvG'er ever, and cite your ability to tank DoA better than anyone else as proof. Why does it matter, and who cares?

You lost. You actually did worse than lose, you have no idea why you lost. You ask why everyone else are faster than you, yet fail to consider the obvious answer: you're a worse player than everyone else.

I suggest you spend more time talking to Life Bringing about builds. In the meantime, I'm through with you.

@UnChosen - that's why we have three areas to contest: Raisu, Gate of Madness and Hell's Precipice. I think also that you underestimate the resilience of the teambuilds. I took Star Burst a few times in Raisu Palace, but still turned in a record time. I'm pretty confident one Smiter + one semi-healer suffices for general play, but maybe not for the more difficult dungeons.

@Frozen Ele - that I think is a far better argument for Water Magic than all the arguments you've posted before, although 5/7 of the heroes you're using are almost the same as mine, lol.

Do you have a screenshot of the same build in Gate of Madness / Hell's Precipice?

@EFGJack - Lol, those times are why I said you're the best ever

I'll try to cut my times down further, but not very optimistic about it.

Dzjudz · Mar 30, 2011, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morte66

Who else wants Jeydra to do Raisu with Dway, and some Dway people to do it with Jeydra's team, and then have them post calm analyses of the differences?

This. Times are probably very relative to player skill/tactics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Some of the builds I see on here would completely fall apart in the harder dungeons. One hybrid healer + 1/2 Smiter are generally not enough for general play. Survivability of a build should be factored into making a build good.

Actually, a hero with ~3 prots and a hero with MBaS/Spirit Light/PwK is enough for almost any area if you are bringing spirits and minions. Definitely enough for general HM play, probably enough for most harder HM play. Not enough for elite HM play no. But something like Raisu Palace is general HM play.

UnChosen · Mar 30, 2011, 11:56 AM // 11:56

@Jeydra

I agree that Bright Star Shine is going way off from the purpose of the thread. However, that "result" doesn't mean anything. A MORE accurate way to test ele vs everything else would be 6 eles + 2 healer (same build) versus 6 necros/mesmers/rits + 2 healers (same build). Although even then I could think of some problems...

Both of you (and frozen ele) had a MM + Mesmer + Rit core...THAT is what is contributing the most to the team, directly (damage) and indrectly (minion distraction + interrupts). The difference between your time and Bright Star Shine's time is PURELY player skill, IMO.

When I mean resiliency, I mean something along tanking TWO slaver's exile mobs...which I've personally done using a slightly altered DMS. (I didn't do it on purpose, I misjudged a patrol...STILL, this is something that should be taken into account when making builds)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Actually, a hero with ~3 prots and a hero with MBaS/Spirit Light/PwK is enough for almost any area if you are bringing spirits and minions. Definitely enough for general HM play, probably enough for most harder HM play. Not enough for elite HM play no. But something like Raisu Palace is general HM play.

Blah, different definition leads to misunderstanding.

To me general play goes all the way up to slaver's exile HM...maybe I'm overestimating people's ability? Also, general play to me involves accidents as well.

mage767 · Mar 30, 2011, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

This. Times are probably very relative to player skill/tactics.

Just post the team templates that need to be run and let AVERAGE people post times for Raisu. Each team build must be tested objectively for Raisu HM without micro, without skipping, killing all enemies that aggro. Take the average of, say, N runs (from N different people who might report their average times), and then finally compare which build is better.

Sigh, no one here knows how to analyze things scientifically.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 30, 2011, 12:03 PM // 12:03

This is gonna be fun...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Bright Star Shine - perhaps you need a reminder of why you got into this spat with me in the first place.

This started because of the Invoke Lightning change, which I argued was a nerf, hitting a niche for Elementalists in 7H situations. You thought it was absurd, arguing that the niche doesn't exist because Elementalists don't deal damage in HM anyway. You further wrote that Monks deal more damage, that my heroes carried me through Foundry HM, that I'm not a 7H God, that if Elementalists did so much damage why don't people use them, and that if Nightfall has been out for four years, why haven't the builds I developed become meta yet? In short, you did all you could to convince me that you're better than me at Guild Wars.

We put this to test, and your times were way behind mine. What's more, your screenshots showed that you don't know how to make builds. The teambuild you used for Raisu has multiple flaws, immediately obvious to the trained eye. It showed your lack of skill to the point that I immediately concluded you have no chance of beating my 7H times anywhere, with any primary profession even, if Shadow Form / Vow of Silence / Obsidian Flesh / Spellbreaker / consumables are banned.

Yeah, my teambuild sucked, because I didn't put a lot of thought into it tbh. I just randomly slapped some skills on my heroes, because some of their bars were still set to Discord or in the mesmers cases, weren't even set at all.. I know this.

Quote:

And now, after being completely destroyed in this time trial, you say that you can DoA tank better than me.

Yeah, the fact that I am in a DoASC guild might actually imply that I will most likely be better at DoA than you, not only as tank, but in every way, except at doing 7H balanced clears.

Quote:

Very likely, you can. But it doesn't matter. You completely leaped out of the ring and are fighting an imaginary opponent. My original statement that Elementalists can deal damage in HM was directed for general 7H use + caster primary, and I believe my screenshots have proven that fairly conclusively. Your ability to tank DoA simply isn't relevant here. It's like saying that you're the best GvG'er ever, and cite your ability to tank DoA better than anyone else as proof. Why does it matter, and who cares?

It does indeed not matter here, but the case is still that you challenged me to a challenge you KNEW you were going to win because you ARE in fact better at using heroes than I am. I know this. I never denied this, I took your challenge, knowing I was going to lose, but I was still pissed off because you called me out for not being man enough, or said I wasn't going to compete anyway. I did, you didn't, why? Because out of the two of us, you are still the little bitch that is too afraid to take a challenge he knows he can't win. Worse even, you try to twist it in such a way that you will be able to win it, banning the things I am actually good at, so you know I have less chance of winning. Actually, on top of that, I offered you a money reward for that challenge, and you dragged that reward to this challenge. You're not only a whiny bitch, you're also a greedy bastard.

Quote:

You lost. You actually did worse than lose, you have no idea why you lost. You ask why everyone else are faster than you, yet fail to consider the obvious answer: you're a worse player than everyone else.

If you read a couple posts back, you will see that I actually already said I know I am a worse player than the others. I actually said that I am not good at using heroes. So, I did see that.
Btw, since when is it bad to ask things? I live by the vision that if you don't know how something works, asking is always the better way out. I can't stand when in DoA, people don't know how something works and are too afraid to ask and end up making mistakes.

Quote:

I suggest you spend more time talking to Life Bringing about builds. In the meantime, I'm through with you.

Don't worry, you did exactly what I wanted, and even more. You made me really happy when you tried to take the 50e reward here, it proved more than I wanted. You showed the entire guru community what kind of a little bitch you are. I might have shown that I can be a real bastard at times, and that I can get on my high horse, but at least I know this. I don't deny anything. I never denied being bad at heroes. I never denied being an arrogant bastard at times. You on the other hand, do deny being the little bitch you are. I'm in fact a really nice guy, you just made the mistake of trying to piss me off and telling me I'm not man enough to do something.

Thank you, very much.

Now, I was going to post something useful too, but since my class started 5 minutes ago, I'll be running now...

HigherMinion · Mar 30, 2011, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

@Jeydra

I agree that Bright Star Shine is going way off from the purpose of the thread. However, that "result" doesn't mean anything. A MORE accurate way to test ele vs everything else would be 6 eles + 2 healer (same build) versus 6 necros/mesmers/rits + 2 healers (same build). Although even then I could think of some problems...

Both of you (and frozen ele) had a MM + Mesmer + Rit core...THAT is what is contributing the most to the team, directly (damage) and indrectly (minion distraction + interrupts). The difference between your time and Bright Star Shine's time is PURELY player skill, IMO.

When I mean resiliency, I mean something along tanking TWO slaver's exile mobs...which I've personally done using a slightly altered DMS. (I didn't do it on purpose, I misjudged a patrol...STILL, this is something that should be taken into account when making builds)

Blah, different definition leads to misunderstanding.

To me general play goes all the way up to slaver's exile HM...maybe I'm overestimating people's ability? Also, general play to me involves accidents as well.

6 eles? No. easiest way to test both builds is to fill the spare slots with something other than smite monks/eles and see times. Then you take monks and eles on a seperate run in your regular team and compare which aided time more.

synergy is key, so gimping your team is not a fair test. Though, nor is using seperate minds...

Jeydra · Mar 30, 2011, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

@Jeydra

I agree that Bright Star Shine is going way off from the purpose of the thread. However, that "result" doesn't mean anything. A MORE accurate way to test ele vs everything else would be 6 eles + 2 healer (same build) versus 6 necros/mesmers/rits + 2 healers (same build). Although even then I could think of some problems...

Both of you (and frozen ele) had a MM + Mesmer + Rit core...THAT is what is contributing the most to the team, directly (damage) and indrectly (minion distraction + interrupts). The difference between your time and Bright Star Shine's time is PURELY player skill, IMO.

When I mean resiliency, I mean something along tanking TWO slaver's exile mobs...which I've personally done using a slightly altered DMS. (I didn't do it on purpose, I misjudged a patrol...STILL, this is something that should be taken into account when making builds)

Blah, different definition leads to misunderstanding.

To me general play goes all the way up to slaver's exile HM...maybe I'm overestimating people's ability? Also, general play to me involves accidents as well.

Yes, general play involves accidents. When accidents happen the teambuild is generally expected to survive, at least for long enough to escape. If the accident is severe enough, the team may wipe. In most cases that means you res, and have a second try with 15% DP - and that generally means no more accidents. All good teambuilds should still be able to kill mobs with 15% DP. 30% DP might still be doable, although by 45% to 60% DP, you'll probably need extreme care. Taking on two Slaver's HM mobs ... that would depend on which mobs you're thinking of. If it's Wretched Wolves + Modinirs, I bet the teambuild I ran should survive too.

Regarding the Elementalists, I don't think they deal awesome damage relative to everyone. I think they deal awesome damage relative to everyone after the Rits and MM are excluded. So even if I had mercenaries, I wouldn't run 6 Eles + 2 healers.

Bright Star Shine's times are terrible not only because of a difference in skill. His builds are terrible. I mean, just look at them. He has no idea how to use Smiting Monks, or how to best fit Smiting Monks into teams. He uses Pain Inverter, has Spiteful Spirit with a Keystone Mesmer, etc. He may not realize it, but I would wager that his teambuild is worse than S/D/M.

Also: just got a Raisu Palace HM clear in 8:10, I could never have imagined it either.

Arrogant Bastard · Mar 30, 2011, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Slightly OT but...Bright Star Shine, please stop dropping "subtle" cues that you are in college in every other post.

Really weakens your argument when you call someone a whiny bitch while constantly reminding everyone that you are a whiny college kid.

Regarding the thread topic, I think competing for times is great; however, if you want to compare builds it might be better for several people to run each build and post the result.

Mage767's idea would probably be best, but it would take much longer to get a large enough sample.

Jeydra · Mar 30, 2011, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Just so I don't miss the deadline if we are continuing for some reason ...

I REALLY don't think I can get it down much more, although just scraping past the 8-minute mark is a possibility.

http://img151.imageshack.us/i/gw098i.jpg/
http://img846.imageshack.us/i/gw099.jpg/
http://img861.imageshack.us/f/gw100.jpg/
http://img846.imageshack.us/i/gw101.jpg/

aga · Mar 30, 2011, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Ok, I took the liberty to doing Raisu using S/D/M, now let me make this clear, I DO NOT like S/D/M, I think discord is complete trash, but nobody else was posting times with the build, so someone had to step up. This was my only run, and i was only using standard builds.

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/a...a110/gw093.jpg
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/a...a110/gw094.jpg
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/a...a110/gw095.jpg

Now maybe someone can do S/D/M who isnt biased? Probably could get below 10mins with it, doing proper skipping.

Btw, I wont be doing Hell's precipce, mainly because my sin isnt there, and I hate pretty much every Proph mission with all my heart.

Kunder · Mar 30, 2011, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Let me take this time to say: stop using SoGM rits guys, its a horrible hero build and its doubly horrible for speed runs.

I don't think anyone should be skipping mobs other than the obvious danika part, but I suppose you can't prevent people from doing it and trusting them not to is just asking for trouble...

Daesu · Mar 30, 2011, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Let me take this time to say: stop using SoGM rits guys, its a horrible hero build and its doubly horrible for speed runs.

Not really. I tried both with and without the SoGM and the SoGM does help with damage and spirit tanking a lot more than other alternatives. Furthermore, didn't Jeydra posted over 8 mins for Raisu with a SoGM in the team?

One thing you realize with their builds is that they reduced healing (and other non-damage skills) to cramp as much damage as possible and few builds can match the SoGM with that. With the ability to micro, they can minimize their need for healing. I have to reduce healing from my generic builds and start micro-ing if I ever hope to improve my timing. But that's such a pain....

Notice the lack of Panic in most of the builds.

Quote:

I don't think anyone should be skipping mobs other than the obvious danika part, but I suppose you can't prevent people from doing it and trusting them not to is just asking for trouble...

For Raisu, you can skip some stranglers and flag your heroes ahead, but if you skip too much you risk killing Mhenlo and your npcs which you cannot flag. Killing Mhenlo would fail the mission for you and killing danika or cynn would punish your speed. It helps if you have killing speed, if I use a different primary profession there is a big difference in time. Knowing the mission and knowing when to skip certainly helps.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 30, 2011, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Slightly OT but...Bright Star Shine, please stop dropping "subtle" cues that you are in college in every other post.

Really weakens your argument when you call someone a whiny bitch while constantly reminding everyone that you are a whiny college kid.

Now, what did I ever do to you? Also, you know nothing about me, so please stay out of this.

@Jeydra, you might want to recall that I already admitted I suck at using heroes. So, keep bashing about it all you want, you're not proving anything. Show me the exact post where I stated that I am better at using heroes (in general) than you. Ohwait... So stop stroking your ego.

Anyway, on topic. I don't have time tonight, I actually shouldn't be on my laptop atm, but I will try using a diff build on Raisu, if you insist. I know that my teambuild sucked, because I didn't even take the time to properly make one, those were the first random 7 skillbars I slapped together in 5 minutes.

Also, I still think running a mission, where tactics are a major advantage, shouldn't show how well your build is. It shows how good you are, and last time I checked, this competition was started to see how good builds are. This would be saying the builds we use in DoASC are awesome in every aspect of the game, because we can do a 22min DoA with them, which is false, those builds are so fast because of tactic and player skill. Using those builds in, say, UW will most likely result in epic failure, or at least nothing good. So, can we either do something that shows the relevance of a build, rather than player skill (of which, when it comes to heroes, I lack plenty, which I never denied), or will we continue this silly contest the way it is? You keep saying a VQ is bad, but if you take the right area, it will in fact show perfectly how well your team build kill stuff. An area without patrols, silly groups or too much running. Just plain simple: kill that shit and be done with it.

FengShuiDove · Mar 30, 2011, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Mage's idea is probably the best. I have no strong opinion one way or the other on this topic. I've used Discord before, and I've since used a more "balanced" backline in some different areas. I love the experimentation, and so even though I haven't been posting I've been keeping an eye on this thread. This week has been absolutely ridiculous in my personal life, but here's what I'll do as soon as possible, probably this evening:

RUNS:

I will perform four runs, using two team builds. All will be in Raisu Palace HM. I will not skip groups, I will keep the helpers the same, and I will use the same tactics to the best of my ability in each run.

1. D/S/M
2. "Myway"
3. "Myway"
4. D/S/M

I may only time the last 2 runs, I may time all 4 and take the average. The idea here is that the first 2 runs will be to case the joint and make sure I'm aware of all mob locations and tactics before I time each run. If I feel there are any major setbacks or variables, I'll do an extra run.

I will be running an Assassin Dagger + SY spammer, but I will NOT bring hero builds in "Myway" that abuse my being a physical. In other words, I will not bring Strength of Honor, Orders, or any other builds that make physicals strikingly more potent.

Whether or not you believe this will be an unbiased and fair trial is of little relevance really. Since I suspect most major pro/opponents of DSM and other builds not specifically stated will not be swayed from their opinion by any results posted, I see this as simply sharing some of my own research with you here.

Lastly, if anyone has suggestions for team builds they'd like me to run, feel free to PM me. I'll probably report my own team build first (which, fair warning, may be sub-optimal) and then get around to anyone who sends me a message with a suggested build.

Looking forward to seeing what happens

.

JONO51 · Mar 30, 2011, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

Just post the team templates that need to be run and let AVERAGE people post times for Raisu. Each team build must be tested objectively for Raisu HM without micro, without skipping, killing all enemies that aggro. Take the average of, say, N runs (from N different people who might report their average times), and then finally compare which build is better.

Sigh, no one here knows how to analyze things scientifically.

This is pretty much the best idea in this whole thread.

AndrewSX · Mar 30, 2011, 04:36 PM // 16:36

^Pretty much.