Curse

EFGJack · Mar 29, 2011, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

This should have been a build contest rather than a hero micro-ing skill contest.

Now that's one rule you can't enforce... Unless you're implying I'm micro-ing my heroes do note I already mentioned I'm not participating ;>

mage767 · Mar 29, 2011, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Updated times for my runs:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=82

Used the following team build:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...58&postcount=8

Kaida the Heartless · Mar 29, 2011, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Dear God. Don't let all the "Ele's Suck" people see Jeydra's post. World might end early.

Dzjudz · Mar 29, 2011, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Jeydra, you pretty much Fall Backed past all groups possible? Or did you kill most/all groups on your path?

Chthon · Mar 29, 2011, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I disgaree to rule 5 though, because I NEVER, EVER claimed S/D/M is superior to anything! Ever! So I don't see why I should run that silly bar.

OK, since you both seem to believe that S/D/M is is definitely not superior, and seem to be arguing over eles vs monks, run whatever you like so long as Jeydra runs offensive eles and you run offensive monks.

I'll go amend my earlier post to reflect that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aga

If this was going to be a fair challenge, then the rules could do with some changing. Since Bright does have to use his ele, when he already stated that he thinks ele do aweful damage in HM, which is true when you consider they are supposed to be a nuking class. So to make it fairer allow him to use his sin, or whatever class he wishes, or this challenege will be just like his DoA challange aimed at Jeydra.

I'm a little surprised to have to deal with someone who hasn't finished prophecies on more than 1 character. In my view, as long as Jeydra is not using something better than an ele, BSS is not at a disadvantage by having to use one. However, I don't really care. So, if no one objects, I'd be inclined to let BSS change the player character to something else for the other two zones.

-----------

A note to all the people saying "oh, I messed up my screenshots," so I'm too late and won't compete." You still have ~29 hours left just for Raisu, and several days left on the other two.

Wenspire · Mar 29, 2011, 11:36 PM // 23:36

RAISU: For the heck of it, with ranger-team...

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/s...g/GWRaisu1.jpg

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/s...g/GWRaisu2.jpg

11 minutes flat. Ran past maybe 1-2 groups (last group at gatekeeper being one of them)

Kunder · Mar 29, 2011, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Interesting to see Raisu be the mission of choice. Its always been the mission I go to for a quick trial run of a build, and I keep record of my best time on every GW mission. I won't be competing since I laugh at shitty builds along with Jeydra, Cthon, and others. For the record, my best Raisu Palace HM time is 9:49, though I always take Danika and Talon. I bet I could shave off around 30s or so from that if I really tailored my build and also chained Fall Back, so if anyone manages to get 9:19 or lower without any silliness I'll be impressed. I will volunteer to be on hand to point and laugh at all the people who fail and bring crappy builds that are slow. I like to think of myself as a contributer in this way.

Jeydra · Mar 30, 2011, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Jeydra, you pretty much Fall Backed past all groups possible? Or did you kill most/all groups on your path?

No; given Star Burst and other constricted areas in Raisu that isn't really possible. But as long as this contest continues I'm not at liberty to say much more. Are we continuing anyway? I have screenshots for Gates of Madness and Hell's Precipice, albeit not complete (i.e. once every 5 minutes or something) and I'd like to know if I should try to improve on them. Times were something like 15 minutes for Gates of Madness, probably improvable because I lost some 30 seconds trying to attune an already-attuned altar, while I hit 12 minutes for Hell's Precipice (probably not improvable).

I just got Raisu HM in 9:12, but given how hard I pressed I don't think I can get it much faster - at least, my dream of getting it under 9 minutes is probably impossible with this teambuild ...

At this point I suspect Nika is more effective than Cynn, but I have not tried.

@Bright Star Shine - if you want a DoA test run, sure. Pick one area only; I'm not interested in a full run. No consumables and no Shadow Form / Vow of Silence / Obsidian Flesh / Spellbreaker.

I should say that the builds I've used for DoA HM so far involve no offensive Elementalists (unless you count me as an offensive Elementalist), however.

UnChosen · Mar 30, 2011, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squishy ftw

I don't think I'm quite getting this. So in order to 'decide' which is the best/fastest killing 7H setup you're doing a few HM missions ... where tactics are a major deciding factor in time... ?

IMO this should be a few vanquishes with a straight-forward fastest route and no silly patrols. So the only difference in time can, and will, be how fast you kill. No?

QFT. Which is why the entire contest is utterly pointless.

Things I see wrong with the whole Jeydra vs Bright Star Shine "competition"

1. Shiroken comes in relatively small group, it favours Chain Lightning / Invoke Lightning...where their biggest weakness had always been "only hit 3 targets"

2. Shiroken monk uses reverse hex/shield guardian, shiroken mesmer uses shatter hex, shiroken ritualists have recuperation / life, every shiroken has song of the mist. It counters spiteful spirit / MoP...being able to spike with multiple air spells is a big advantage in that area.

Then there are issues like micro and tactics. There are TOO MANY VARIABLES not taken care of.

P.S. Bright Star Shine, told you that "its a trap!" in the other post.

Kunder · Mar 30, 2011, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

QFT. Which is why the entire contest is utterly pointless.

Things I see wrong with the whole Jeydra vs Bright Star Shine "competition"

1. Shiroken comes in relatively small group, it favours Chain Lightning / Invoke Lightning...where their biggest weakness had always been "only hit 3 targets"

2. Shiroken monk uses reverse hex/shield guardian, shiroken mesmer uses shatter hex, shiroken ritualists have recuperation / life, every shiroken has song of the mist. It counters spiteful spirit / MoP...being able to spike with multiple air spells is a big advantage in that area.

Then there are issues like micro and tactics. There are TOO MANY VARIABLES not taken care of.

P.S. Bright Star Shine, told you that "its a trap!" in the other post.

Its a relatively balanced area. While individual groups are small (4), you can easily lure 2 together in about 75% of the situations, if they don't already start together when you aggro them. Moderate hex/enchantment removal isn't unknown for most PvE reasons and being able to handle that is important for builds. The only real thing messing up comparisons is that the rits actually have Restoration, which can obviously be a bitch and cost a good 10s if it lands in the wrong place. Its not much though. The important thing is that you can do repeated runs and just submit the best time. Micro is irrelevant, all players are allowed to micro obviously. Tactics are mostly irrelevant, Raisu is set up so that there isn't really any way to "cheese" it, unless you see an 8x Shadow Form team with each hero running and soloing its own boss you can rest assured everyone is playing pretty much the same.

Essentially, Raisu Palace is fair and representative of an average PvE area. Its probably the most constant area in Guild Wars in terms of spawns and how you can play it, its short so the variation won't be too large, and it is at about the mid-high range of PvE difficulty. Go ahead and point out another area, chances are I can poke a dozen holes 2x the size for each issue you have with Raisu. If in the end the disparity between two builds is something ridiculously small like 10s then its probably not statistically significant and we won't care, but its not going to be that close.

UnChosen · Mar 30, 2011, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Its a relatively balanced area. While individual groups are small (4), you can easily lure 2 together in about 75% of the situations, if they don't already start together when you aggro them. Moderate hex/enchantment removal isn't unknown for most PvE reasons and being able to handle that is important for builds. The only real thing messing up comparisons is that the rits actually have Restoration, which can obviously be a bitch and cost a good 10s if it lands in the wrong place. Its not much though. The important thing is that you can do repeated runs and just submit the best time. Micro is irrelevant, all players are allowed to micro obviously. Tactics are mostly irrelevant, Raisu is set up so that there isn't really any way to "cheese" it, unless you see an 8x Shadow Form team with each hero running and soloing its own boss you can rest assured everyone is playing pretty much the same.

Essentially, Raisu Palace is fair and representative of an average PvE area. Its probably the most constant area in Guild Wars in terms of spawns and how you can play it, its short so the variation won't be too large, and it is at about the mid-high range of PvE difficulty. Go ahead and point out another area, chances are I can poke a dozen holes 2x the size for each issue you have with Raisu. If in the end the disparity between two builds is something ridiculously small like 10s then its probably not statistically significant and we won't care, but its not going to be that close.

Exactly...every area has holes to poke, which is the problem with this contest to begin with. If I tell people to do Jaga Morgaine and force one guy to use all eles, it would also be unfair due to the spectral vaettirs.

We also have to ensure that no microing are done...which is impossible to prove. Maybe get people to frap their run showing all of their aggro are just "blind rush". Then we have to test the resiliency of the build...get people to go to areas with HUGE mobs and patrols and get them to frap themselves aggroing about 20 monsters, and come out unscathed...which is one of the strong point about DMS and its variants.

And more more more.

The only way to make it work? Get Anet to allow us to use BOTS, and get both teams to move in exactly the same way with the exact same time, then test at least a dozen areas to account for different variables.

Frozen Ele · Mar 30, 2011, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Go-go water magic!

Raisu Palace HM 9:28

Start
End
Time

Pretty sure I could shave off a bit if I tried a few more times. With the variance in mobs, micro-ing, etc. Jeydra's time and mine are statistically indifferent.

Daesu · Mar 30, 2011, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Definitely influenced by your primary profession. I just tried another profession and it gave 12:29 in Raisu HM on the first try, again no micro.

EFGJack · Mar 30, 2011, 05:58 AM // 05:58

I got 8:37 with a few skips and necessary micro @ Raisu. Below 8 might be possible if I ditched the dedicated healer, but I don't think this was a "Raisu HM time trials!"- thread

timbo_3101 · Mar 30, 2011, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Amazing mission times to finally back up the arguments and debates. The results speak for themselves, despite what some observers may comment regarding the validity or otherwise of this methodology.

All trials are subject to some interpretation and analysis, and there may be minor variability due to spawns or execution, but one cannot discount the builds and tactics employed. After all, those who posted such unbelievable times are the same players who have been at the frontier of PvE and H/H gameplay - the same players who have generously contributed online to our GW community and knowledge base.

These results are compelling indeed. Congratulations to those involved!

AndrewSX · Mar 30, 2011, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Now we need someone to test the time of S/D/M i guess.

Anyways, it's nice to see that good players can do this(and probably most of anything else) using a wide variations of builds....offensive eles, water eles(the revenge of snares, lol), rangers so far.

But nobody have posted a meele build till now....but cause meeles are quite OP in GW, they will probably get lower times of casters imo.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 30, 2011, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Bright Star Shine - if you want a DoA test run, sure. Pick one area only; I'm not interested in a full run. No consumables and no Shadow Form / Vow of Silence / Obsidian Flesh / Spellbreaker.

I should say that the builds I've used for DoA HM so far involve no offensive Elementalists (unless you count me as an offensive Elementalist), however.

You still don't get it, do you? The only reason I started that contest was to provoke you. You started this and you were saying "you're probably not man enough to do it". I knew you wouldn't enter the challenge under my terms, because you know I'm a pretty experienced DoA tank and I would woop your ass by at least an hour. I'm not gonna let you change the rules, why would I? Now either compete under my terms or admit you're nothing but a little bitch that's too afraid to do anything besides that what he's good at. This contest was never fair to begin with. I knew I was never going to win, let alone come close to winning. I suck at using heroes, I know this. I never said otherwise, I never claimed to be any good with heroes. I know that heroes are your area of expertise, and that you, and probably a lot of other people are way better than me at using heroes, I never denied this.

So, want to enter under my terms, which dictate that you can do whatever the hell you want, which in my opinion is a lot more fair than telling people what they have to do, restricting their abilities and such so that you are more likely to win? Who's the best contestant now? The one that says: you can try to beat me in every way you can think possible, or the one that says "you can't do this, this, this, this, and especially not this" because he knows you will beat him if you do?
Most likely not, because who's gonna win, the balanced "hero god" or the one that actually knows DoA and how to do the area? I know who, that's for one.

Now, I won't be doing Hell's for today, because I'm at my gf's dorm, on my laptop, and I'm not feeling like doing anything that requires more brainpower than solving double integrals.

But, the entire point of my post, how the hell did you guys get such fast times in Raisu? It's pretty strong imo, and I want to know how. Did you skip half the groups? Did you sprint to the cutscenes? Please do tell me.

Wenspire · Mar 30, 2011, 08:47 AM // 08:47

I wasn't aware it was a competition of who the best player was at clearing x-area. I thought it was about comparing the heroes/builds in the group in x-area?

Morte66 · Mar 30, 2011, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Who else wants Jeydra to do Raisu with Dway, and some Dway people to do it with Jeydra's team, and then have them post calm analyses of the differences?

UnChosen · Mar 30, 2011, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I wasn't aware it was a competition of who the best player was at clearing x-area. I thought it was about comparing the heroes/builds in the group in x-area?

EXACTLY! When I saw this thread the first thought that came through in my head was "this won't end well", and I was right.

Not only are there many variables that wasn't taken into account (I've explained it way too many times already), but pure speed is NOT the only factor that makes a build good.

Some of the builds I see on here would completely fall apart in the harder dungeons. One hybrid healer + 1/2 Smiter are generally not enough for general play. Survivability of a build should be factored into making a build good. Adaptability is also another one...areas with heavy strip/interrupts would RUIN ele based teams. Ohh, and there's also ease of play which sould be factored in too.

Remember, this is a heroes contest, NOT a speed clear contest. Part of make some builds good is that they're foolproof, does decent damage, and has high resiliency. If I have a build that clears at record speed, but if the moment I lag and accidently aggroed one more group cause me to wipe, then its not a good build...its a glass cannon build.