Curse

Jeydra · Mar 28, 2011, 01:44 PM // 13:44

4 Mesmers and 3 Necros with Discord is fine with me.

I didn't mean to suggest Thunderhead Keep. I actually hate that mission because of the amount of time you spend waiting. That is, unless you think it's only fair that I pick an area of my own. I wouldn't suggest you do that, however, because you can be sure I'll pick an area that heavily biases against 4 Mesmers + 3 Necros.

Tell me what primary profession you'll be using, in addition to the rough builds you and your heroes will run.

aga · Mar 28, 2011, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I would like to see some people doing HM material without an MM. I know a few of you say it's possible (which it is, I know) but I feel that a great majority of people just rely on an MM as a crutch to skilled gameplay.

Just my $0.02...

I hardly ever use MM, mainly because by the time my MM gets his minions to the group I'm fighting almost everything will be dead, making them comlpetely pointless.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 28, 2011, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

And lol, the two people who this thread was directed at - you know who you are - seem to have shut up completely. So much for S/D/M being every power gamer's choice ...

Yawn, I know this is directed to me, and if not, probably partially, but tbh, I thought you were gonna make the first move. Tbh, I don't see why I should participate in this, because in my entire guru history I have never backed up S/D/M in any way, claiming it is good, better, or whatever. Only thing I said was that eles suck at dealing damage. Also, you sir need to get down from your high horse. You are not the H/H god, so stop pretending you are. I will take your silly challenge though, but I refuse to use S/D/M, I will just prove that I can outdo your ele heroes. So, first move is up to you, also I have a new challenge for you, if you're man enough to take it. But I won't post it in here, because, I did, earlier, and a moderator asked me nicely not to, so I won't. I will make a new thread for it.

Life Bringing · Mar 28, 2011, 11:06 PM // 23:06

I kinda like Raisu Palace. Post a screen and ill see if i can beat it

Jeydra · Mar 28, 2011, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Yawn, I know this is directed to me, and if not, probably partially, but tbh, I thought you were gonna make the first move. Tbh, I don't see why I should participate in this, because in my entire guru history I have never backed up S/D/M in any way, claiming it is good, better, or whatever. Only thing I said was that eles suck at dealing damage. Also, you sir need to get down from your high horse. You are not the H/H god, so stop pretending you are. I will take your silly challenge though, but I refuse to use S/D/M, I will just prove that I can outdo your ele heroes. So, first move is up to you, also I have a new challenge for you, if you're man enough to take it. But I won't post it in here, because, I did, earlier, and a moderator asked me nicely not to, so I won't. I will make a new thread for it.

Last chance. Do you really intend for me to choose the area? Because if you do, I can promise you you will regret it.

Do you agree not to use any offensive hero Elementalists, instead using an offensive hero Monk for every offensive hero Elementalist I use?

Do you agree to use your Elementalist?

Do you agree not to use consumables of any kind?

@Gabs88 - I think Raisu is better than THK. At least I'm certain to enjoy it more, because it's more intense. It also has times at the end precise to seconds, and we can agree on which NPCs to bring. Only possible problem are the Celestial skills. If you want THK and Raisu ... why not, I guess, although it might take longer than a week for me to finish.

I'll begin serious testing for these areas when I have the time.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 29, 2011, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Last chance. Do you really intend for me to choose the area? Because if you do, I can promise you you will regret it.

Do you agree not to use any offensive hero Elementalists, instead using an offensive hero Monk for every offensive hero Elementalist I use?

Do you agree to use your Elementalist?

Do you agree not to use consumables of any kind?

@Gabs88 - I think Raisu is better than THK. At least I'm certain to enjoy it more, because it's more intense. It also has times at the end precise to seconds, and we can agree on which NPCs to bring. Only possible problem are the Celestial skills. If you want THK and Raisu ... why not, I guess, although it might take longer than a week for me to finish.

I'll begin serious testing for these areas when I have the time.

Why would I use my elementalist, if my point is, to prove that my elementalist sucks? I'll use whatever profession I deem worthy of the area you choose. On all the rest, I do agree.

Life Bringing · Mar 29, 2011, 12:50 AM // 00:50

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5554/gw342.jpg

I used the celestial skill, so go ahead and use yours. I wish you luck

Jeydra · Mar 29, 2011, 12:56 AM // 00:56

You want me to do THK, Raisu and ToPK all at the same time, at once? I don't have that much time to spare in a day, I'm afraid. At best, maybe two days.

I wanted to take a week so I could spend more time refining my builds, but if you insist on doing it right now that's fine with me as well. I'll go get some (but probably not all) of the screenshots tonight.

Quote:

Why would I use my elementalist, if my point is, to prove that my elementalist sucks? I'll use whatever profession I deem worthy of the area you choose. On all the rest, I do agree.

You agree to use your Elementalist because I'm using my Elementalist. I'm not using my Elementalist because I think Elementalist damage is great, but because I don't have any other PvE characters. Our both using Elementalists removes any potential bias from primary class.

If you are not willing to use your Elementalist, I'll have to conclude that you intend to beat my times not by being a better Guild Wars player, but by exploiting a primary class advantage. Actually I think I can still force a win if we ban Shadow Form / Vow of Silence and Obsidian Flesh, but what the heck - you have an Elementalist, use it so we can be on level playing grounds.

If you agree to use your Elementalist, I'll want a stake of 50 ectos, and Xenomortis can be the referee.

Oh and I suggest we ban Shadow Form, Vow of Silence and Obsidian Flesh because we're discussing damage. If you can run straight to the finish with Shadow Form, it would scarcely matter how much damage your heroes do.

EDIT: @Gabs, if you want to go to Kamadan and grab an area, fine with me bar one thing - I want to be able to switch out the MM if the area named doesn't have many bodies. Also unlike you, I can't afford to stay up till 3am, so if you want to select areas this way we'll have to do it on a weekend.

Kinda unfair I think that you make that change after Life Bringing posts a time. Why not just use the areas you mentioned?

Plutoman · Mar 29, 2011, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Fair challenge;

Third-party names two different areas, areas that require no running around chasing patrols/blind luck involved. Both would be done in HM.

Players run with no bars. Heroes only. No mercenaries allowed for the challenge. Testing should be minimal, times posted within a couple days of the areas named.

Simple rules, fairness. If you have no interest in playing without mercenaries then you aren't willing to accept a fair challenge, because you have an advantage over the other players that they can't compensate for. Who's to say that it's not the mercenaries, not discord, that improves the time? Don't argue for Discord when you're not going to back it. Testing should be minimal because this is arguing for a general build, not specific builds for every area. Tweaks of course are fine, but construction of builds for areas is not what people want to do.

(For me, I keep several various builds of each type of hero, and add-in or subtract depending on the general layout of an area - never faulted me once. I have about 40 builds constructed for different types of areas, with ~15 of them solely intended in elite area play, and another ~5-10 for farming builds. ~15-20 builds can cover the entirety of the game besides DoA and UW.)

These are my suggestions, I'm not gonna be hardcore enough to participate.

Frozen Ele · Mar 29, 2011, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Make it all four areas of ToPK; you've got to beat them anyways, so just /age

Chthon · Mar 29, 2011, 05:21 AM // 05:21

OK, this is getting silly. Since no one wants to set the terms of the contest, I will.

Contestants are Jeydra, Gabs88, Bright Star Shine, and anyone else who wants to participate (except the judges).

Screenshot judges are Xenomortis and myself. And, if we manage to disagree on something, Higher Minion as tie breaker.

Judges may not compete.

Rules:
1. Do HM Raisu Palace and post screenies in this thread by midnight US Eastern time on Wed evening.
2. Do HM Gate of Madness and post screenies in this thread by midnight US Eastern on Fri evening.
3. Do HM Hells' Precipice and post screenies in this thread by midnight US Eastern Sunday evening.

4. Anyone who fails to post a screenshot by the deadline is disqualified. (And none of this "I'm really busy right now" crap. Raisu can be finished faster than writing a post here.)
4-a. Screenshots may be submitted to me in advance (Xeno doesn't know he's a judge yet

), but still need to be posted here in time to count.

5. Gabs88 and must use some variant on S/D/M (or retract his claim that it is superior).
5-a. BSS must use something with offensive monks, but without offensive eles (or retract his claim in the monk/ele debate).
6-a. Jeydra must use something that is not S/D/M (or retract his claim that it's inferior).
6-b.Jeydra must also run something using offensive eles, but no offensive monks (or retract his claim in the monk/ele debate).
6-c. Jeydra may run one build that satisfies both criteria, OR may run twice using one build to satisfy 6-a and another build to satisfy 6-b. If he chooses to run twice, he needs to clearly label his posts/screenshots. (If Jeydra decides to run two different builds, I'm going to treat him as if he were two different people and he has to follow all the rules for both "people.")
7. Anyone else can run whatever they like.

8. You may not use mercenary heroes to exceed the natural hero limits (3x War, 3x necro, 2x mesmer, etc.)
9. You must use the exact same bars for all 3 zones. To prove this, have all bars open for final screenshot.
10. No cons of any sort (including alcohol* and DP removers). To prove this, include a screenie of start and finish w/ inventory open showing no cons. If your time is over 20minutes, provide an extra screenshot w/ inventory open between 15:00 and 19:59, between 35:00 and 39:59, etc.
11. No Shadow Form, Obsidian Flesh, Vow of Silence, or Spellbreaker.
12. Raisu Palace helpers are Danika and Cynn, show a screenshot w/ them in party list.
13. No celestial skills for Raisu Palace.
14. Do bonus for Gate of Madness. Prove it by having open U-map showing all shrines blue and all shrine-buffs active in final screenshot.
15. Do bonus for Hell's Precipice. Prove it by having screenshot of final Armageddon Lord crumbling death animation.
16. No lightbringer title for GoM. Unfortuately, I don't have a way to enforce this short of FRAPS. On your honor here guys.

* Alcohol is allowed to be in your inventory, or even used, IF you have no skills on your bar that benefit from it.

[edit: added "in this thread" to eliminate any confusion over where to post]
[edit: narrowed time window for intermediate no-cons screenshots]
[edit: added "evening" to make clear that it is the midnight at the end of the specified day, not the beginning]
[edit: added #13, renumbered 14 and 15]
[edit: updated rules to respond to questions.]
[edit: changed rules 5 & 6 because BSS does not want anything to do with S/D/M]

**Marty Silverblade** · Mar 29, 2011, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Just to be sure, does Alcohol count as a consumable? DP removers (or morale boosters like Rainbow Candy Canes) would be illegal too, I assume?

Jeydra · Mar 29, 2011, 06:02 AM // 06:02

I'll accept Chthon's rules, although I'll point out that Bright Star Shine's contention was that Elementalist heroes are terrible, with Monk heroes doing more damage. That's why I wrote about him not using Elementalist offensive heroes and instead a Monk offensive hero for every Elementalist offensive hero I use. I was at some point worried he'd start running Mo/E Searing Flames Monks after I decided on an area though ...

PS: You sure require a lot of screenshots. I'm mildly worried that I won't be able to take a screenshot between 15:00 and 19:59, for example, because I'm concentrating too hard on playing right then. Oh well.
PPS: I hate Hell's Precipice. Jeez, why do you have to pick the most annoying missions around ...

@above - Personally, I'm against the use of both, but I'd say that's for the judges to decide.

EDIT: Can I run 3 offensive Elementalists, forcing Bright Star Shine to use 3 offensive Monks (if he agrees to the terms, of course) and then a different teambuild to match times with Gabs88?

EDIT #2: Can I submit screenshots to the judges by PM instead of posting them here?

awry · Mar 29, 2011, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Hell's precipice, the neutral screw you to both parties? lol SF, lol minions

Life Bringing · Mar 29, 2011, 06:26 AM // 06:26

I believe the most commonly used heroes for raisu are actually talon and danika. Im going to have to redo raisu without the celestial skill qq.

I'm not sure i agree on the exact same team build rule. Its been a while. but to titans even leave corpses? Its kind of forcing the participants to run without a MM or be gimped in that area

Wenspire · Mar 29, 2011, 06:31 AM // 06:31

I hope everyone has the same lightbringer rank for GoM. I believe that would give an advantage, no?

Chthon · Mar 29, 2011, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

Just to be sure, does Alcohol count as a consumable? DP removers (or morale boosters like Rainbow Candy Canes) would be illegal too, I assume?

DP removers are out. Alcohol is out if you have any skills that benefit from it such as drunken master. You can get drunk for the hell of it if you want to so long as it give you no advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'll accept Chthon's rules, although I'll point out that Bright Star Shine's contention was that Elementalist heroes are terrible, with Monk heroes doing more damage. That's why I wrote about him not using Elementalist offensive heroes and instead a Monk offensive hero for every Elementalist offensive hero I use. I was at some point worried he'd start running Mo/E Searing Flames Monks after I decided on an area though ...

Quote:

EDIT: Can I run 3 offensive Elementalists, forcing Bright Star Shine to use 3 offensive Monks (if he agrees to the terms, of course) and then a different teambuild to match times with Gabs88?

I think I'm going to wait to see if Bright Star Shine has anything to say on the topic. If you both agree that that's the point of contention, I'd modify the rules as follows: you can run twice as Jeydra-A and Jeydra-B, where Jeydra-A must run something that's not S/D/M and Jeydra-B must run something with 3 offensive eles; whilst Bright Star Shine must run 3 offensive monks. But, since I'm lazy and don't want to judge 2 sets of screenshots, and I prefer simplicity, I'm going to keep it just "S/D/M vs. not-S/D/M" until BSS pipes up.

Quote:

PS: You sure require a lot of screenshots. I'm mildly worried that I won't be able to take a screenshot between 15:00 and 19:59, for example, because I'm concentrating too hard on playing right then. Oh well.

Raisu should only need start and end shots. The others should only need 3 shots. It's a 5-minute window, so it should be hard to completely miss.

Quote:

EDIT #2: Can I submit screenshots to the judges by PM instead of posting them here?

For now, I'll look at them in advance and to see if I have any problems with them, but they still need to be posted here in time to be official. (Xeno doesn't know he's a judge yet. I appointed him by fiat.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

I believe the most commonly used heroes for raisu are actually talon and danika.

Doesn't matter who as long as everyone has to use the same ones. I was thinking about picking the suckiest two just to be an ass. At any rate, I do happen to think that these two are actually the best for the mission.

Quote:

I'm not sure i agree on the exact same team build rule. Its been a while. but to titans even leave corpses? Its kind of forcing the participants to run without a MM or be gimped in that area

1. I thought about allowing minor twinking, but it's such a slippery slope I decided against it.

2. Only the middle necromancer titans leave corpses. So, yes, minion users will be corpse starved in Hell's.

3. Since everyone is subject to the same unpleasant choice regarding minions, the rule is fair in that no one gains an advantage from it.

4. If someone used a build with minions to absolutely destroy everyone else in Raisu and GoM, and didn't do laughably bad in Hell's, I'd probably still consider them the winner.

Which kind of reminds me, I don't really have a criteria for determining a winner if no one sweeps all three races. Any suggestions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I hope everyone has the same lightbringer rank for GoM. I believe that would give an advantage, no?

Best equalizer I can think of is that no LB title is allowed. Unfortunately, I have no way of enforcing it.

**Marty Silverblade** · Mar 29, 2011, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Which kind of reminds me, I don't really have a criteria for determining a winner if no one sweeps all three races. Any suggestions?

Total time is the simplest way of doing it. I'm assuming you chose those three missions for a reason. They're all fairly different in nature so given that no changing of builds is permitted total time will measure overall performance. It's biased towards whichever build is better suited for the longest mission though.

You could also add more missions; perhaps some EotN ones (haven't done them in a long time and can't think of any suitable ones off the top of my head...)

Quote:

Best equalizer I can think of is that no LB title is allowed. Unfortunately, I have no way of enforcing it.

It's not necessarily fair though. GoM is most likely designed with the Lightbringer title in mind. With less damage and no free damage resistance, your build choice will naturally differ. Meh... unless all interested people are the same rank this is the only choice anyway.

Daesu · Mar 29, 2011, 07:51 AM // 07:51

I got 13:32 in Raisu HM without micro (no cons, no celestial skill, and with Danika+Cynn as per the rules). Not sure if that is a good time but I messed up by having cons in my inventory when I took the first screenshot, and I thought I could take the screenshot after the mission to show that the number of cons are still the same.

However I forgot that there is no way to screenshot my inventory at the end, oh well.

Anyway, I am not serious about entering this contest as I am sure you guys would beat my timing by a large margin. Good Luck!

AndrewSX · Mar 29, 2011, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

You could also add more missions; perhaps some EotN ones (haven't done them in a long time and can't think of any suitable ones off the top of my head...)

Can i suggest Destruction Depths HM? Swarming foes in first 2 levels, single hard boos at the end seems a nice mix for a trial.