Curse

Jeydra · Mar 27, 2011, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by spray04

This contest is completely pointless. People have to realize that S/D/M is so good because it is a build that works well in almost all areas and not really the best build in one specific area. You can for sure come up with a better build suited for one specific area in comparison with S/D/M. Using a thousand different builds to beat S/D/M in a thousand different areas doesn't prove a thing. You better show that one build can beat S/D/M in almost all areas for that build to be the new meta.

Pick two (or three, or four, or however many you want) areas then. If you're willing to get screenshots for every area I'll do the same for those same areas, using the same builds for one and all of them.

@Gabs88 - not really. It's entirely possible for a Perma to run past the first level of Bogroot Growths. I vaguely remember a screenshot where someone micro'ed Zenmai, ran past every mob in Duncan HM and killed Duncan. Shadow Form needs to be banned, simple enough.

Also I've no fear of taking on Fingers of Chaos. Bring it on, I say.

mage767 · Mar 27, 2011, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

Thom/Rand 22 mins, non-discord. Invent shown at beggining and the end shows no cons were used. Would be nice too see if someone could do faster.

Interesting to see that someone else is putting FD to good use - indeed, amazing team builds are possible surrounding it. Discord heroes works with FD just fine, but there are ways to tweak it to pump out even more juicy conditional damage.

Nice time on those 2 bosses though

However, slavers is not a great place to test builds. I still believe TopK is ideal for hero-build testing. Just take screenshot every 5-10 minutes to ptove no cons have been used.

Essence Snow · Mar 27, 2011, 06:30 AM // 06:30

I don't think Vloxen would be a good choice as most of level 2 (which takes the most time) can be skipped easily.

aga · Mar 27, 2011, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Well I used s/d/m for the forst time last night. And my opinion is that it is good if your pulling is very messing and cannot ball up to a decent standard, but if you can ball then you should not be running it, since there are much better options availible.

Wenspire · Mar 27, 2011, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

I don't think Vloxen would be a good choice as most of level 2 (which takes the most time) can be skipped easily.

Just have to make sure it hasnt been skipped. After all, it's really all about testing the efficiency of builds and not about exploits. I take it you can tell who has skipped with a screenshot at the 2nd level door?

aga · Mar 27, 2011, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Just have to make sure it hasnt been skipped. After all, it's really all about testing the efficiency of builds and not about exploits. I take it you can tell who has skipped with a screenshot at the 2nd level door?

You can tell if they skipped the lvl by the build used by the player. If the player is using consume corpse/necrotic traversal then it's likely he skipped the 2nd lvl.

Wenspire · Mar 28, 2011, 02:03 AM // 02:03

I assume they won't have the dungeon's key logo showing on the screen a well.

aga · Mar 28, 2011, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Dungeons should not be considered for the challenge, since almost all have some form of a glitch of way to skip 90% of a lvl. Look at Frostmaws, glitch through lvl1, glitch a bit on lvl2, glitch through lvl4 and on lvl 5 pull the boss to a snowball, hard stuff bro.

Voodoo Rage · Mar 28, 2011, 05:14 AM // 05:14

This thread illustrates my beef with the whole "meta" mentality. People can ultimately have different playing styles. Yes, certain builds and teams are clearly better than others but when we start getting super pedantic about times and stressing about hyper-efficiency, I think we do lose a bit of why we play this game in the first place.

Secondly, the player's primary profession and playing style obviously has a lot to do with what "is the best team". If I like to play a bit more of an aggressive front liner, I'm clearly going to need a drastically different team supporting me than someone who might play a more conservative "lay my spirits and pull" style.

I think the community should really shy away from declaring a "meta" team build. With the seven hero setup, the best thing player can do is get comfortable tailoring the builds to accommodate the foes and area they will be playing in instead of just anointing the next crappy "discordway" that everyone will feel is what they should be running because that what it says on PvX.

Wenspire · Mar 28, 2011, 06:03 AM // 06:03

I would love to see more people using group builds that do not rely on having an MM aboard.

Rites · Mar 28, 2011, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I would love to see more people using group builds that do not rely on having an MM aboard.

i would love to see a team setup without spirits and MM

Daesu · Mar 28, 2011, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I would love to see more people using group builds that do not rely on having an MM aboard.

It should be possible without a MM because some areas do not have many exploitable corpses.

If my MM brings protection spells, I usually replace him with an ER prot.

mage767 · Mar 28, 2011, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

i would love to see a team setup without spirits and MM

MM is not even a critical unless you run like 2+ necros. Necros can easily be substituted with mesmers, eles and dervish conditioners.

If not using ER ele, then bring a ST-based prot comm rit. It's spirit-based but not the offensive SoS/SoGM/ST-based damage comm that people also run on heroes.

Wenspire · Mar 28, 2011, 08:22 AM // 08:22

I would like to see some people doing HM material without an MM. I know a few of you say it's possible (which it is, I know) but I feel that a great majority of people just rely on an MM as a crutch to skilled gameplay.

Just my $0.02...

Dusk_ · Mar 28, 2011, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I would like to see some people doing HM material without an MM. I know a few of you say it's possible (which it is, I know) but I feel that a great majority of people just rely on an MM as a crutch to skilled gameplay.

Just my $0.02...

I did it all the time with 3-Hero builds on my Warrior. Actually, I hated using MM, because I always had to wait for the minions to catch up. With 7 Heroes, it's not such a big deal if they show up late to the party though...

Jeydra · Mar 28, 2011, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...t10475872.html

Since my responce ended up beeing an awful lot longer then I had originally thoght it would be I am posting in a separate thread. Follow the link to see.

Yawn ...

If you're so confident S/D/M or its variations is powerful enough to "handle the sky falling down with baboons raining from it and about a hundred enemies coming from 200 different directions at the same time as a monkey farts "God Save the Queen" in reverse", why not just accept my challenge and be done with it? Unless you want me to choose the area - and in all honesty I advise you not to let me make the choice - I don't see why you can't take up this challenge. If the terms as listed in the first post aren't acceptable to you, then offer some new ones. Put some teeth behind your words, or I can't be expected to take you seriously.

And lol, the two people who this thread was directed at - you know who you are - seem to have shut up completely. So much for S/D/M being every power gamer's choice ...

PS: I have no trouble with almost all areas of PvE. Right now the only areas which I cannot be certain of clearing are DoA HM and UW HM. I am fully confident the builds I've used to clear DoA HM will also clear just about every other non-DoA, non-UW HM area, so it isn't a super specific build.
PPS: I usually don't use ER Prot heroes.

Oh, and it's certainly possible to do HM without the minion master. The minion master does excellent damage and the minions do an excellent job of keeping mobs in place, but you can do without a MM. You have to anyway, in areas like Shards of Orr.

squiros · Mar 28, 2011, 01:21 PM // 13:21

S+D+M doesn't require mercenaries. i think this should be a requirement for whatever build people come up with. it should be account and player independent, one of the main attractions of SDM imo.

as stated, empty player bar. the problem is also armor and other specs - a warrior who isn't likely to be targeted can make SDM run independently. whereas a non functioning monk would be targeted and could take significant resources away. or are you arguing WITH player interaction, so the AP bar + SDM vs your 8 bars?
this brings up adaptiveness. many of the spirits can be modified to suit areas, discord can alternate between different curses based on caster vs melee to a degree, should new builds be comparable in evolving specific functions? does your 7 hero build only work with elementalists?

as such, the real solution i think would be disclosing the set of 7 hero builds. there's too much cheating to be had otherwise. this way we can test the same area running our characters through exactly the same way with 7 different heroes.

BrettM · Mar 28, 2011, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

5) Player builds play a factor, if I bring "SY!", I could roll with almost anything better than DMS, which usually relys on AP+YMLAD+EVAS+FH.

Actually, it doesn't rely at all on an AP caller build. That's what I find to be the liberating thing about it. With H&H discord you need it, but with DMS your player can go back to something more fun to play. There are so many hexes and conditions flying around that you don't need a caller build to ensure that every target meets the req for discord. An ele can go back to being an ele, for example.

With some mods, I find this is even good for physical heroes. Leave the resto skills off the SoS rit, add Splinter, Essence Strike, and Ancestor's Rage (or Fallback), and replace the other rit with an orders derv using Racthoh's build or a variant on it.

Jeydra · Mar 28, 2011, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Because I have no interest in this. I have no interest in clearing DoA with heroes as it isent benefitial to me in any way apart from growning a larger epeen with saying I can do it. There are human groups and the human groups do a generally better job then non human ones there because of the metagame builds and PVE skills.

Nor do I play S\D\M with 2 ritualists, I primarily play Human S or human M with D and M heroes because I find hero spirit spammers to be immobile. You completely missed my point with that statement mate, cause what I was saying is in essence that with minions allready in my team, I have absolutely no need to handle more pressure then im allready capable off.

So if you wanna face me, face me with your build versus mine. Don't ask me to run a build that I concider to handle more pressure then what is required to perform the task at hand while rendering me less mobile then I prefer to be and that I therefore dont play.

If your build's using two or more Discord Necros, and I think it is, I'll accept your build vs. mine.

If you're going to use a human Ritualist, a human Mesmer or a human Necro, I think it's fair you use the one free slot for whatever you want. Use a Para, Ele, Derv, whatever.

You suggested ToPK HM earlier. That area is fine with me. Which area do you want to run the time trial on, just the last level? Or all of them? Do you also want to add different areas to the trial, e.g. ToPK HM + Thunderhead Keep HM?

I think depending on how many areas are in the time trial, a time limit of one week to post screenshots is fair. If you think whoever posts first is at a disadvantage, I'll accept a third party as a referee as well - I suggest Xenomortis.

Jeydra · Mar 28, 2011, 01:36 PM // 13:36

In that case, post a rough idea of what you're going to run, and I'll see if it's worthwhile for me to try to outrun it.