Curse

Calista Blackblood · Jan 30, 2012, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Take your sniping to PM. I will lock this thread next time.

Tom Swift · Feb 01, 2012, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Just finished getting all my heroes set up for this to try it out.

Doesn't work as well everywhere (as you said, foes that are resistant to burning don't die as fast) but where it works it is a real blast. My only complaint is that in nm everything dies before I even finish casting AP.

Jeydra · Feb 02, 2012, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

Yeah this is really just a combination of a few of the good/great hero builds off pvx with absolutely no synergy between them - you have a load of AoE stuff, which suggests you are going to try and ball stuff up, but then you have a discord and SoS rit, which suggests you just wanna spike stuff down? You have blind and an e/mo protter, but you still take minions and weakness, most of the skill choices just don't make sense and don't synergise with the rest of it.

Agreeing with this. Individually there's nothing wrong with each bar, but the sum total doesn't make sense. Parts of your synthesis are very interesting, e.g. where you put the hard resses, the prots, the Command shouts, but the rest I don't understand. If you're trying to hold aggro and lay on the AoE (as suggested by the two SF Eles), the only thing you have to hold that aggro is minions. You don't even have EBVAS. Yet it also looks like you're trying to lay on the single-target damage with IV, Discord and Finish Him!. What are you trying to achieve? It's overall a strange build that doesn't make sense, not helped by my personal experience that teams with this amount of AoE aren't very effective.

That said, I am very curious what you come up with when SF Eles aren't viable. I'm having difficulty making anything that's up to par.

Swingline · Feb 02, 2012, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Its just a clump of meta builds but I do applaud you for taking the time to get it all together. I would replace Discord with AoTL and I hate Never Surrender because the hero will use it when one hero drops below 75% health putting it on CD while the rest of the party might go under 75% a second later. Also get rid of Fireball on the second SF hero. You want them to spam SF. Death Pact Signet is also a sure way to stack DP.

Ill try this out on my Ranger.

Daesu · Feb 04, 2012, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Death Pact Signet is also a sure way to stack DP.

Quite the opposite. If you die through DPS, you would not acquire DP from that death. DPS is a great res IF you would not fail your mission from a wipe. For example, a vanquishing run.

It allows your team to wipe and res from a shrine more often, if you make a mistake. The characters that died through DPS would not acquire DP from their deaths.

If you are on a mission that would FAIL upon a wipe, then of course replace DPS with FoMF or other more suitable res.

Quote:

Death from this skill will not cause the user to incur Death Penalty nor impede their Survivor title track progress.

Source: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Death_Pact_Signet

Chthon · Feb 05, 2012, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you're trying to hold aggro and lay on the AoE (as suggested by the two SF Eles), the only thing you have to hold that aggro is minions. You don't even have EBVAS.

1. Didn't I say you can sidebar EVAS for aggro-control if you want it?

2. Large-bore AoE doesn't need as tight of balls.

3. The section entitled "usage tips" details aggro techniques. The extremely short version is: Melee can be allowed to run right up to you (thus forming a ball), then blinded and nuked. Casters will generally stand still (in the ball they started in) and try to nuke you back. Panic will keep a lid on them and they will die before they think of moving. On the uncommon occasions they try moving, they will be knocked down or snared or one then the other. Mobs that manage to be problematic despite the above can be pulled through a spirit wall to draw fire and ball them.

4. On a half-related note, maybe it's my imagination, but it seems like monsters give a lower priority to their AoE-flee instinct since the AL->HP change.

Quote:

Yet it also looks like you're trying to lay on the single-target damage with IV, Discord and Finish Him!. What are you trying to achieve?

Dead monsters.

The focus is on AoE, with just enough single-target damage to pick something off if it deserves extra attention.

Quote:

not helped by my personal experience that teams with this amount of AoE aren't very effective.

Searing Flames' dirty little secret is that it works just as well against one target as several -- and just as well against one target as almost any single-target direct damage skill.

Quote:

That said, I am very curious what you come up with when SF Eles aren't viable. I'm having difficulty making anything that's up to par.

I haven't designed them yet. They're probably going to be water builds that rely very heavily things that don't burn being weak to cold damage. (ie Water Magic still sucks except for the buffed elites, so getting a bonus from monster weaknesses is the only thing that will make such builds worthwhile.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Its just a clump of meta builds but I do applaud you for taking the time to get it all together.

I was being a little modest. There is actually some thought behind how this clump of meta builds got duct taped together.

Quote:

I would replace Discord with AoTL

I'm not a huge fan of Discord, but AotL is a complete waste of space.

Quote:

I hate Never Surrender because the hero will use it when one hero drops below 75% health putting it on CD while the rest of the party might go under 75% a second later.

I'm not a huge fan of NS, but alternatives are hard to come by. You could:
1. Make it another copy of SYG. But that would be overkill on SYG duration, and the second copy is less valuable anyway since the battle should be over before the first runs out.
2. Replace it with another Fire or ES skill, probably Fireball.
3. Increase Command at the expense of ES (not so great for long-term e-management) and make it the only copy of SYG, freeing up a slot on the necro for probably Putrid Bile or Putrid Explosion.

Quote:

Also get rid of Fireball on the second SF hero. You want them to spam SF.

It still adds DPS even if the AI messes up and leads with Fireball over SF.

Quote:

Death Pact Signet is also a sure way to stack DP.

See Daesu's comment.

Jeydra · Feb 05, 2012, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Yes but you didn't mainbar EBVAS. Sidebar isn't the same as mainbar. Also if you allow melee monsters to run up to your team you can't get good balls because heroes kite melee damage.

SF's real dirty little secret is that it needs the target to be alight before it can deal damage, which means it provides little spiking power and is ineffective against single targets. I haven't had good results with the skill, but up to you.

Chthon · Feb 05, 2012, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Yes but you didn't mainbar EBVAS. Sidebar isn't the same as mainbar. Also if you allow melee monsters to run up to your team you can't get good balls because heroes kite melee damage.

Time Eruption right and monsters deal no damage. Heroes don't seem to kite blinded monsters much. Alternately, time Churning right.

Quote:

SF's real dirty little secret is that it needs the target to be alight before it can deal damage, which means it provides little spiking power and is ineffective against single targets. I haven't had good results with the skill, but up to you.

That's what MoR is there for. To a lesser degree, that's also why there's two of them. You usually lose one SF off the front when you first engage the mob, since the hero AI wants to lead with SF, but it's usually constant burning from then on out.

Also remember that the recharge is tiny. SF can turn to a new target and get 2 or 3 cycles in before most alternatives can recharge. Even if the first SF is wasted on burning, you still get to a spiky stage faster.

LexTalionis · Feb 06, 2012, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Personal opinion:

I'm not overly fond of promoting SF - rather too many things that I actually do have to worry about in HM tend to be exactly the things SF builds are weak to: Examples - Roaring Ethers (SF is too slow before Mistrust starts exploding all over) and Ruby Djinns (Don't burn). SF always seemed to me to specialize in killing things which were already pretty easy to kill in the first place, and I have a huge dislike of the "Win More" fallacy.

The biggest problem with your build is its lack of identity. If you're going to be constantly swapping around your elementalists, I can't really isolate the backbone of your build. What makes this build unique? What's the sine qua non of the build? Discordway obviously cannot function without Discord, Jeydra's old Chain/Invoke Air eles frankly didn't need to be swapped out much, if at all, Mesway doesn't work without mesmers, Sabway worked off three Necromancers and EFGJack's builds don't work without the abuse of a tanking melee player.

Chthon · Feb 06, 2012, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

I can't really isolate the backbone of your build. What makes this build unique? What's the sine qua non of the build?

Why do you think a build needs a sine qua non to be effective?

LexTalionis · Feb 06, 2012, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Why do you think a build needs a sine qua non to be effective?

I don't. I do think it needs something special to be newsworthy though, unless you're just interested in bragging about how well your particular combination of meta skills works, in which case it might be more effective just to link to PvXwiki.

I'm asking: What makes your build special?