Curse

MisterB · Feb 03, 2012, 04:14 PM // 16:14

I've run SoS N/Rts before. The problem with doing that is Splinter Weapon decreases in damage too much. Of course if Mark of Pain goes off correctly on a ball, that's a moot point. 15 or 16 Channeling Splinter makes a big difference compared to 12 or lower.

3.142 · Feb 03, 2012, 04:55 PM // 16:55

The way I look at it is this. I don't want this to be a merc build and I want a version with ST. I don't want to drop SoS for it so I need to either...

A. Lose a mesmer and replace that with an ST then change the IV prot for an offensive Necro bar.

B. Turn my one rit into an ST and make a secondary SoS.

The question is which gap in damage output is bigger? If you can make a Necro bar that will match the damage of a mesmer (Or do as much damage minus the difference in damage by dropping chanelling) then I would put that there. I think I lose less damage with worse channeling skills than I would replacing an E-Surge with a Necro.

MisterB · Feb 03, 2012, 05:53 PM // 17:53

ANet needs to add 3rd Rit and Mes heroes already. Problem solved. Coming to GW1 in 2014.

Difference in damage from dropping Splinter depends a lot on the player triggering it, so it's harder to evaluate I suppose.

itiscurtains · Feb 03, 2012, 07:23 PM // 19:23

It's hard to justify not bringing a fully-specced Channeling rit, especially on a "melee support" teambuild. Splinter Weapon is arguably the best buff available to melee players.
Is there any particular reason you don't want to make this a merc team?

3.142 · Feb 03, 2012, 07:39 PM // 19:39

^I don't have mercs.

Neither do most people and if they do they can make the assumption that a Rit makes a better Rit than a Necro.

I only ran it at 15 before anyway and it's dropped to 12. It's not THAT big a deal.

Konker2020 · Feb 04, 2012, 04:59 AM // 04:59

I can't help but think that throwing Putrid Bile on whichever Necro has the highest spec'd Death Magic would be an impressive addition. Especially if IV and Putrid are stacked on the same enemy.

3.142 · Feb 04, 2012, 10:10 AM // 10:10

That would be possible for the first team but for the second one the only way I can see Death Magic being added is if you can move SoH off of the PoD allowing him to spec into death.

I'm not that good with ST bars but it might be possible to free up enough atts to take SoH on the ST. I would want a minimum of 8 smiting though. And tbh i'm not sure it would be worth the effort.

Daesu · Feb 04, 2012, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142

^I don't have mercs.

Neither do most people and if they do they can make the assumption that a Rit makes a better Rit than a Necro.

I only ran it at 15 before anyway and it's dropped to 12. It's not THAT big a deal.

This is probably OT...

I think one reason why most people don't have mercs, besides the cost, is that 99.999% of the published meta builds do not use mercs. Therefore, they see no reason for them to buy mercs.

The question you should ask is, if by using mercs, is the build going to be any better? If the answer is no, obviously don't use mercs for the build. If the answer is yes, then the next question is, can we substitute certain profession slots for people without mercs? Sometime, it would be yes. For example, you can always try substituting a primary mesmer with a N/Me.

The problem with people, like me, who have already bought mercs, we tend to stick to builds that use them because we want to use the most optimal build since we have already spent money for them.

By the way, here is the triple mesmer build for my warrior:

http://www.gwpvx.com/User:DarkSpirit...lee_characters

3.142 · Feb 04, 2012, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

This is probably OT...

I think one reason why most people don't have mercs, besides the cost, is that 99.999% of the published meta builds do not use mercs. Therefore, they see no reason for them to buy mercs.

The question you should ask is, if by using mercs, is the build going to be any better? If the answer is no, obviously don't use mercs for the build. If the answer is yes, then the next question is, can we substitute certain profession slots for people without mercs? Sometime, it would be yes. For example, you can always try substituting a primary mesmer with a N/Me.

The problem with people, like me, who have already bought mercs, we tend to stick to builds that use them because we want to use the most optimal build since we have already spent money for them.

By the way, here is the triple mesmer build for my warrior:

http://www.gwpvx.com/User:DarkSpirit...lee_characters

If I had mercs the only things I would change would be the N/Rt SoS for a primary rit, drop the res on his bar for essence strike and on the ST drop Sig of Creation for a res. If I was feeling strong I might change the IV resto for a Me/Rt resto.

I'm considering getting 3 mercs and if I do I will put a merc version up.

Daesu · Feb 04, 2012, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142

I'm considering getting 3 mercs and if I do I will put a merc version up.

That was also what I bought. In terms of optimizing builds, you should not need more than 3.

3.142 · Feb 04, 2012, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Which 3 would you suggest? Rit, Mes and ???

Also the build suggestions are good but i'm curious as to whether people like this or not.

It would be good if after posting a suggestion or criticism people could give it a score out of 10 or something. Just so I have a general idea of whether it's worth putting more effort into it.

EDIT: Thoughts on changing the IV resto into an AoTL resto? I wouldn't want Death Nova on him though so i'd also want to know if minions without Death Nova are worth it.

Daesu · Feb 05, 2012, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142

Which 3 would you suggest? Rit, Mes and ???

Currently, I have Rit, Mes, Mes as my 3 mercs. With this configuration, I can have a max of 5 mesmers+2 rits or 4 mesmers+3 rits. I don't foresee that I would ever need more than 3 rits, at least in the near future. One SoS, one defensive ST, and maybe one SoGM or Wanderlust communing would be the max number of rits needed in most build configurations that I would be interested in.

Quote:

Also the build suggestions are good but i'm curious as to whether people like this or not.

It would be good if after posting a suggestion or criticism people could give it a score out of 10 or something. Just so I have a general idea of whether it's worth putting more effort into it.

EDIT: Thoughts on changing the IV resto into an AoTL resto? I wouldn't want Death Nova on him though so i'd also want to know if minions without Death Nova are worth it.

If you ask me to rank your build, I would give it a 7 or 7.5 out of 10 without trying it out yet.

I don't like bringing death nova and minions because it tends to slow down the team if you need to move fast from place to place. In some other situations where there are lots of corpses and you don't need to move around much, it would probably perform better.

I also don't really like a curse necro because they usually only bring debuffs and some damage. MoP is nice but without AP, its use is quite limited even if you micro. If you don't micro, it is even worse. At least a prot smiter can provide damage, utility, and prots/heals.

Also no source of cracked armor. There is no need to have 3 fallbacks. I would replace one FB with another copy of SYG so that heroes can chain SYG.

3.142 · Feb 05, 2012, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Currently, I have Rit, Mes, Mes as my 3 mercs. With this configuration, I can have a max of 5 mesmers+2 rits or 4 mesmers+3 rits. I don't foresee that I would ever need more than 3 rits, at least in the near future. One SoS, one defensive ST, and maybe one SoGM or Wanderlust communing would be the max number of rits needed in most build configurations that I would be interested in.

If you ask me to rank your build, I would give it a 7 or 7.5 out of 10 without trying it out yet.

I don't like bringing death nova and minions because it tends to slow down the team if you need to move fast from place to place. In some other situations where there are lots of corpses and you don't need to move around much, it would probably perform better.

I also don't really like a curse necro because they usually only bring debuffs and some damage. MoP is nice but without AP, its use is quite limited even if you micro. If you don't micro, it is even worse. At least a prot smiter can provide damage, utility, and prots/heals.

Also no source of cracked armor. There is no need to have 3 fallbacks. I would replace one FB with another copy of SYG so that heroes can chain SYG.

The MoP actually does some pretty good damage with PoD and the other enchantment hating skills.

I don't have cracked armour because I play a Sin and all my damage is armour ignoring anyway. You could very happily drop Shadow of Fear for Weaken Armour or Spirit Rift over the res on the SoS.

I'm actually going to be dropping the SYG on V.3 since the ST makes it fairly redundant, it's only there for the first team for when you're charging your first SY. I'm max Lux though and playing a sin with no other adren skills so it might not be possible for a war or derv with a low allegiance to perma SY.

There is never any "need" for 3 fall backs but I use this for vanq'ing alot and by god is it wonderful to have 3 Fall Backs when you're looking for that last enemy who dug himself into a hole so you can't see him.

About MoP. The more I use it and the more practiced I get with it the more I like it. With the initial ball of most mobs I will easily get 5 triggers off which = 200 damage and if things didn't go perfectly and you had to clear up a few more melee you can use it again on any balled casters. Also I hate Smiting heroes.

When I next update the team I will have some optional slots so people can optimize it for what they want to do.

Daesu · Feb 05, 2012, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142

The MoP actually does some pretty good damage with PoD and the other enchantment hating skills.

Yes MoP does good damage but how reliable is it if you don't micro it? Furthermore, it has a 20s recharge without AP, if the MoP hexed target dies you have to wait awhile for it to recharge before you can use it on the next target. But having MoP in the build is not a deal breaker either.

Quote:

I'm actually going to be dropping the SYG on V.3 since the ST makes it fairly redundant, it's only there for the first team for when you're charging your first SY. I'm max Lux though and playing a sin with no other adren skills so it might not be possible for a war or derv with a low allegiance to perma SY.

Yes I don't think you can assume that SY is always maintained 100% of the time, especially for any class/W. The good thing about SYG is that heroes chain it fairly well when needed and because of its long recharge, it doesn't drain too much energy.

Quote:

There is never any "need" for 3 fall backs but I use this for vanq'ing alot and by god is it wonderful to have 3 Fall Backs when you're looking for that last enemy who dug himself into a hole so you can't see him.

If you have extra skill slots with nothing better to use, then sure. But since your main character is a melee class, I am sure you can find other suitable skills in the Command attribute that would boost your damage or buff your team, other than FB.

3.142 · Feb 05, 2012, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Yes MoP does good damage but how reliable is it if you don't micro it? Furthermore, it has a 20s recharge without AP, if the MoP hexed target dies you have to wait awhile for it to recharge before you can use it on the next target. But having MoP in the build is not a deal breaker either.

Yes I don't think you can assume that SY is always maintained 100% of the time, especially for any class/W. The good thing about SYG is that heroes chain it fairly well when needed and because of its long recharge, it doesn't drain too much energy.

If you have extra skill slots with nothing better to use, then sure. But since your main character is a melee class, I am sure you can find other suitable skills in the Command attribute that would boost your damage or buff your team, other than FB.

If you're not going to micro MoP then don't take it. When you do micro it and you have a good ball though you get stupid amounts of damage. 20s recharge means it will be up for the start of every fight which is when it's in its element. Oh, and if the MoP target dies then it's pretty likely that everything around it died first.

Suggest something to replace Fall Back with. Chaos storm would be pointless with this team, Overload is probably too hard on their energy, Shatter Enchantment means im trading the AoE damage from PoD for the same damage just single target.

Daesu · Feb 05, 2012, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142

If you're not going to micro MoP then don't take it. When you do micro it and you have a good ball though you get stupid amounts of damage. 20s recharge means it will be up for the start of every fight which is when it's in its element. Oh, and if the MoP target dies then it's pretty likely that everything around it died first.

If you need to micro MoP then you should MoP a target that is adjacent from the one that you are actually attacking. Workable but needs getting used to. It is also limited to just about one MoP cast per battle since targets die fast and recharge is long.

Quote:

Suggest something to replace Fall Back with. Chaos storm would be pointless with this team, Overload is probably too hard on their energy, Shatter Enchantment means im trading the AoE damage from PoD for the same damage just single target.

A second SYG for chaining. You can also take "Find their weakness" for deep wound and damage boost, "Never Give up" for energy boost for allies that are below 75% health, or "Never Surrender" for heals for allies that are below 75% health.

3.142 · Feb 05, 2012, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If you need to micro MoP then you should MoP a target that is adjacent from the one that you are actually attacking. Workable but needs getting used to. It is also limited to just about one MoP cast per battle since targets die fast and recharge is long.

Using it on a target adjacent to your main would be good adice for a war or derv but I play a sin with this team. It's also a bit irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You can also take "Find their weakness" for deep wound and damage boost, "Never Give up" for energy boost for allies that are below 75% health, or "Never Surrender" for heals for allies that are below 75% health.

Never Give Up and Never Surrender are both ruined by the AI. They will use it the moment 1 person drops below 75% health.

Find their weakness is on a 15 sec c/d. That means in most fights I get one deep wound from it. Things die so fast that it really wouldn't help either.

I find that I generally have more than 20 seconds in between each fight so by the same logic you use to justify the first or second copy of Fall Back you can justify the third. Make move fast good.

Daesu · Feb 05, 2012, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142

Never Give Up and Never Surrender are both ruined by the AI. They will use it the moment 1 person drops below 75% health.

Find their weakness is on a 15 sec c/d. That means in most fights I get one deep wound from it. Things die so fast that it really wouldn't help either.

I find that I generally have more than 20 seconds in between each fight so by the same logic you use to justify the first or second copy of Fall Back you can justify the third. Make move fast good.

Depending on the area, I would generally rather take something that I can use in battle than to sacrifice 3 skill slots for moving around faster. To each his own.

3.142 · Feb 05, 2012, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Depending on the area, I would generally rather take something that I can use in battle than to sacrifice 3 skill slots for moving around faster. To each his own.

The way I look at it is this. Pretty much anything "works" in pve. That is to say almost any team can get you through HM. The goal then becomes making your team super idiot proof and/or fast.

I have enough idiot proofing with all my defence so I want speed.

Daesu · Feb 05, 2012, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142

The way I look at it is this. Pretty much anything "works" in pve. That is to say almost any team can get you through HM. The goal then becomes making your team super idiot proof and/or fast.

I have enough idiot proofing with all my defence so I want speed.

Pretty much anything works in pve? That statement depends on whether the build is only designed to work for vanquishing or it is also designed for the elite areas in HM. If it is only meant for vanquishing then it doesn't matter.