Curse

ele kid · Jan 18, 2012, 04:32 PM // 16:32

I personally am no fan of discordway, but i do know of CAN be super efficient with mercenaries. People doing hm titan quests no cons no summons no morale in insane times. Plainly dropping à meteor shower and do the usual.

Improvavel · Jan 18, 2012, 05:00 PM // 17:00

It is fun how people still like to bash a very powerful but not broken skill.

The biggest drawback of discord is being a death magic skill.

The only stupid thing about discordway is physical chars running AP caller builds.

Gabs88 · Jan 18, 2012, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Been messing around with the build planner a bit and ATM im at this

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Anyone got a good idea about what to use the last slots for? Got a full set of mercs so can grab anything from another nec to mes to SOGM rit but unsure which would be best right now.

And if there is any elementalist builds that may fill the spot well? Cracked armor would be nice

PurpleFission · Jan 18, 2012, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Discord is really inferior now because of the 7h patch, henchies are not that great so there had to be a condensed version of a spike and utility. aka discord. nowadays, because you have so many more heroes, discord lacks the spiking power that you could have if you had chosen a different setup. ss necro, iv necro, ST rit, and a triple mesmers with esurge, AC and ineptitude.

The forth fly · Jan 18, 2012, 06:43 PM // 18:43

If your new discord is perfect,not every one wants to do SoO HM with hero's or go to gloom, for casual/new players that want to finish the game or just want a few points for HoM you cant do better NM or HM

AtomicMew · Jan 18, 2012, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

To be honest, I think it's funny how people attribute the downfall of Discord to the introduction of 7H. Discord is actually stronger since the acquirement of seven heroes.

You have your three single-target, hybrid Discord heroes dealing single-target spike damage with hybrid stuff, like heals and command skills/prot, etc. then you bring AoE stuff on the other characters, it's obvious. You don't have to take two monks, etc.

People are jumping at the chance to say they dislike Discord because it makes them look less stupid, when it's having the opposite effect. Or rather, it would have the opposite effect if everyone wasn't following suit.

It's true.

Discordway's true strength was being able to compress damage, heals, minions and/or prots on to one hero bar. It was very strong and still is decent today. With 7 heroes, you just do not need that kind of bar compression. Nowadays, you can get the same kind of single target spike you'd get with 3 discords, without taking discord.

For reference, I completed all of Slavers' HM with H/H discordway.

No other H/H setup for casters was remotely as powerful until spirits got buffed.

Kunder · Jan 18, 2012, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The biggest drawback of discord is being a death magic skill.

lolwut? Death Magic is arguably in the top 3 most useful attributes of guild wars.

Quote:

It's true.

Discordway's true strength was being able to compress damage, heals, minions and/or prots on to one hero bar. It was very strong and still is decent today. With 7 heroes, you just do not need that kind of bar compression. Nowadays, you can get the same kind of single target spike you'd get with 3 discords, without taking discord.

For reference, I completed all of Slavers' HM with H/H discordway.

No other H/H setup for casters was remotely as powerful until spirits got buffed.

Completely untrue. Discord was never a great build even back in the 3H days. It was passable, but you could never handle elite areas well with it.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 18, 2012, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Discord has always been and continues to be a strong, viable option for players. In fact, you can, with relative ease, complete anything in the game next to DoA HM. I'd imagine that with some patience, you could even use it to complete DoA HM as well. It won't net you the best times for completions [anywhere]; it isn't a tweaked per-dungeon/location build but it'll still clear quickly and easily. The strength must be seen in a broader perspective; it is a build meant for general success, and it does that well.

AtomicMew · Jan 18, 2012, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Completely untrue. Discord was never a great build even back in the 3H days. It was passable, but you could never handle elite areas well with it.

If by elite area you mean DoA HM, then no.

If you mean slavers, then yes, it could (as I stated in the last post). In fact, other than spirits (which came later) name me one H/H build for casters that was capable of slavers HM?

Some more history:

I used to play ALOT of H/H, and I tried out almost every possible combination. A few years back, when I asked for discordway alternatives, I think it was either Xeno or Jeydra that recommended 2 paras + minion bomber for my AP-MoP necro - this failed hard and was nowhere near as powerful as discordway. It was at this point that I realized people dissing discordway either 1) played a physical and not a caster (in which case, admittedly discordway was limited) or 2) duo-ed and had access to 6 heroes. Being forced to take 4 henchies was a huge limitation, and so you needed to basically cover every base on your heroes.

That's how guild wars was back then. Whether you mainly duo'ed/grouped or H/H'ed being a main factor and whether you played a melee or caster class being a secondary, represented a huge difference in the outcome of your game experience. And that's why people developed such differing opinions on discordway, and not one opinion was necessarily wrong.

Xenomortis · Jan 18, 2012, 11:46 PM // 23:46

I have no memory of anyone completing the Slaver's dungeons H/H with Discord.
I know a few managed it with other setups before spirit way came about, but not with Discord. If you managed it, you never shared it.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...t10385769.html
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/h...t10366528.html

Of course, we were all terrible then; even the first attempts with spirits failed pretty hard.

I doubt Jeydra offered the suggestion of paragons, since apart from Slaver's he did everything with Discord too, if I remember correctly; although I find it somewhat comical that I might have suggested that... Although I guess heroes were so much weaker in general back then.

The Rit update changed the game for the solo player dramatically. Before then, physicals had a massive advantage in both damage and stability when H/Hing thanks to Save Yourselves and the natural damage properties a physical has. After the Rit update, caster balls gained a lot in damage and stability, effectively robbing physicals of their advantage. I'm not even sure the 7 hero update really compared to that; since that just boosted everything and didn't really change much fundamental, other than make everything easier.

Discord is a relic; a now overshadowed means of overwhelming near all the H/Hable parts of PvE.

Swingline · Jan 19, 2012, 12:10 AM // 00:10

The only reason discord is still around is because of its bar compression, past popularity and unwillingness to switch from a build that they are accustomed to running even though its fallen as a top tier build.

Kunder · Jan 19, 2012, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The Rit update changed the game for the solo player dramatically. Before then, physicals had a massive advantage in both damage and stability when H/Hing thanks to Save Yourselves and the natural damage properties a physical has. After the Rit update, caster balls gained a lot in damage and stability, effectively robbing physicals of their advantage. I'm not even sure the 7 hero update really compared to that; since that just boosted everything and didn't really change much fundamental, other than make everything easier.

This is true. Physicals have been able to roflstomp PvE ever since Nightfall (SY + Splinter Weapon)

That said, Discord was still never a "good" build, the good part came from AP which was the only worthwhile build for casters for a long time (and in many cases arguably still is). Without an AP player back then Discord fell flat on its face and failed horribly.

Discord builds should really have been called AP Spike builds, GW players are horrible about naming things correctly.

AtomicMew · Jan 19, 2012, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I have no memory of anyone completing the Slaver's dungeons H/H with Discord.
I know a few managed it with other setups before spirit way came about, but not with Discord. If you managed it, you never shared it.

I did duncan several times with discord/resto, discord/MM and 1 random (usually SS or VoR) with myself as SS usually. I never did manage to get a "perfect" run, but it was very much possible.

Forgewight on the other hand I just could not finish without DP removers. There was no necro version of ER that jeydra used to finish it :P

@Kunder: repeating what you've said again and again doesn't make it true.

Kunder · Jan 19, 2012, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomicMew

@Kunder: repeating what you've said again and again doesn't make it true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomicMew

Forgewight on the other hand I just could not finish without DP removers. There was no necro version of ER that jeydra used to finish it :P

Yeah, thanks for doing that for me.

Quote:

I did duncan several times with discord/resto, discord/MM and 1 random (usually SS or VoR) with myself as SS usually. I never did manage to get a "perfect" run, but it was very much possible.

You aren't even running a discord build then, its just 2 random necros with discord instead of more powerful elites.

Gabs88 · Jan 19, 2012, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by PurpleFission

Discord is really inferior now because of the 7h patch, henchies are not that great so there had to be a condensed version of a spike and utility. aka discord. nowadays, because you have so many more heroes, discord lacks the spiking power that you could have if you had chosen a different setup. ss necro, iv necro, ST rit, and a triple mesmers with esurge, AC and ineptitude.

Small history lesson, when 7 hero builds was launched there was a build competition in Raisu palace. In first place came Airway, second place RoJ Heroway, third place Waterway (almost identical to airway and only playable by a primary ele really) and in fourth and fifth place came spirits \ discord \ minions variants. Airway is nerfed, RoJ Heroway only really works for melee and waterway is tied to a primary ele in order to be played proficiently.

Adding in the armor reduction which means you can bring Deathly Swarm and discordway is starting to look like a top contender.

AtomicMew · Jan 19, 2012, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Yeah, thanks for doing that for me.

Afaik, only Jeydra completed forgewight on a caster with no consumables or at least, he was the first. Other people may have replicated his achievement with his build using ER, but that was not available to me at the time since I played exclusively on my necro.

Every other person to do forgewight HM with no consumables used a melee tank and spank.

Quote:

You aren't even running a discord build then, its just 2 random necros with discord instead of more powerful elites.

Two of three casters using discord, how is that not discordway? Also, what "more powerful elites" are you talking about? For the healer especially: weapon of remedy?

You refuse to address any of the points I put forth. You have yet to contribute anything to any thread I've visited other than to attack people who disagree with you with your verbal snark. Being that you are new-ish, that is not the way to make a name for yourself.

Xslash · Jan 19, 2012, 02:33 AM // 02:33

some ppl are just full of BS.
talking about H/H DoA.

You could never have henchmen in DoA bro.

On an unrelated note,
Obviously Discord isn't weak for it to gain so much popularity.

I think the strength in discord is the bar flexibility & compression.

Discord is quite strong when you run heroes with default weapons and no runes because you'll still kill stuff and still stay alive.

Discord is also strong when you don't have a lot of skills unlocked. Basically get Discord, then 7 other spells and herpderp your way through the game.

AtomicMew · Jan 19, 2012, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Haha, that's true.

Swingline · Jan 19, 2012, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

That said, Discord was still never a "good" build, the good part came from AP which was the only worthwhile build for casters for a long time (and in many cases arguably still is). Without an AP player back then Discord fell flat on its face and failed horribly.

Discord builds should really have been called AP Spike builds, GW players are horrible about naming things correctly.

This is not true.

I did discord successfully with a Dagger/Scythe/Axe Warrior.

Discord actually got better with the Asuran Scan change. Your own DPS got nerfed but in return you got a spike every time through Blind and Anti Melee hexes.

LexTalionis · Jan 19, 2012, 05:39 AM // 05:39

I assume this discussion is talking about pre 7Hero HM Slaver's, as Slaver's is quite completable as a solo caster these days (Done it with Dwayna, although it's largely a spirit build anyway). That being said, I don't really want to get involved in this debate.

@Gabs: Cracked is probably best done by Curses, but the only thing you'd really be buffing is deathly swarm and minions, the rest of your skills are mostly armour ignoring. You could probably live without it. I'd suggest Hexbreaker Aria (your team is mostly spellcasting and hex removal light) or Hex eater signet. Throw the rez onto the mesmer instead of the discord necro.

As for the eight slot, how about Icy veins? You'd have to micro it (ideally to the same key as AP), but it probably works pretty well with Discord.